Best Way to Build Upper Pec Region

Training Competitive Bodybuilding
81

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
JoeG254 wrote:
Really, fly movements are going to cause enough of a response to put on a a decent amount of mass without pressing movements =\

A 270 lb. bench press puts the same amount of stress on the pecs as a 90 lb. fly.

When you bench, the load is being distributed among the shoulders, triceps, and pecs.

When you do flys properly, the load is going on the pecs and nowhere else.

270/3 = 90

Use more muscles = increased load distribution = move more weight

There is nothing special about it and it doesn’t result in greater stimulation of any one muscle group (the opposite is true, in fact).

Compounds also shift stress away from muscles and onto the bone structure, which further dimishes hypertrophy potential.

Did I mention the use of momentum with heavy compounds? Subtract even more stress from the target muscle group.

Did I mention stabilizers? Subtract even more stress from the target muscle group.

Give a little here, give a little there.

Pretty soon, you get a 300 lb. bench which is roughly equivalent, in terms of potential for chest hypertrophy, to doing flyes with a pair 15 lb. dumbbells.

Which is precisely why so many “strong” guys don’t really look the part, and most of them have a bad attitude about it (“powa-lifta? I thought he was one of those competitive eaters”.

To suggest other than I’ve written is to make a mockery of simple physics and mechanics

You CAN’T get something for nothing. Energy is always conserved.

If you can do 100 lbs max on one exercise, and 300 lbs. on another, recognize that you are giving something up in order to lift heavier on the second exercise. The amount you are “giving up” is going to be proportional to the amount that you gain in the lift. There is no net change, you have not actually “increased” anything. You’ve simply swapped coefficients in an equation.

Physics for fatboys.

The fastest way to hypertrophy is to perfectly isolate the biomechanical function of a muscle and subject it to extreme tension within that ROM. Weight, reps, and sets are almost irrelevant, muscles only know tension. You should train for the pump because it lets you know that’ve targetted the muscle accurately. Your workout ends when the muscle is fully pumped. You train it again as soon as the DOMs subsides.

There’s the manifesto. If this goes against everything that has ever been written on this site, recognize that it should. There is a reason why T-Nation has begun to cater to the hypertrophy-minded crowd after beginning as a haven for fatboys. Real powerlifters only exist in Ohio and on internet forums. Everybody else wants to be a bodybuilder.[/quote]

I vote this as the single most ignorant post, possibly ever on T-Nation.
Comparing a 300lb bench to 15lb flyes?
Training for the pump?
Powerlifters are fat-boys?
I guess I’m a fat-boy, but failed to see any pics of your 170lb of ripped personal trainer in your profile.
Let me guess, you train sedentary, fat middle-aged women and obese children at a Curves?
Physics for fatboys?
Please, I hold two physics degrees and compete in powerlifting. I’m no bodybuilder, but I don’t feel I fit your profile. None of my peers do either.
I’d LOVE to train with you sometime. Might be an eye-opener.
Seriously, get over your insecurity around bigger stronger guys and refrain from giving bad advice.

82

Yeah… sorry, but how the fuck can you say ANY fly movement - in REALITY, not theory - can cause the hypertrophy that any of the presses can?

AND who the fuck thinks that big, compound moves dont cause the biggest HT effect? They obviously do, you seriously are giving false, made up, bullshit equations to argue a point that is UTTER rubbish!! I think it is highly unlikely you can simply divide the load by how many muscles lift the load and get the load bearing of those muscles!! WTF? hehe!

And to further my point, i am a 185lb PT!!!

Yet i do not make excuses for that, i lift heavy and regular and do the “big 3” and all that shit with the aim of being another 20-30lbs bigger!! What is wrong with A/ wanting to be big, this is a bodybuilding forum, B/ Being big, this is a bodybuilding forum, and C/ using big, heavy, PL-esque style lifts to build a large physique?? IT WORKS!

I have to admit, even though mine is a FW gym, lotsa big fellers… Rugby teams… etc… I am one of the ONLY guys who Deadlift and squat seriously! And while i am not 200lbs (yet) i have a thick, dense look to my body that is the beginnings of a fucking meaty arse frame… ahem…there’s ya Big, Heavy, Compound lifts.
I balance and finish my physique with flyes, raises, curls, lunges etc… But still, you get the point.

You say this is why so many “strong” guys dont look the part… to whom are you referring?? Powerlifters certainly look the part… jesus! Bodybuilders look the part too! Maybe you mean olympic lifters? Well if you have to take into account how much the nervous system - from the spinal cord actually, actually contributes to a humans strength, then well… what are you even saying?

What you are arguing or debating isnt really up for debate.

You do give trainers a bad rep. Why do you even come here?

TROLLLL!!

Joe

84

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Joe Joseph wrote:
Yeah… sorry, but how the fuck can you say ANY fly movement - in REALITY, not theory - can cause the hypertrophy that any of the presses can?

AND who the fuck thinks that big, compound moves dont cause the biggest HT effect? Joe

Calm yourself down for a minute my friend and answer me this…

If you are so sure that compound movements are always superior to flying movements, tell me which compound shoulder movement (or back movement) will develop my middle delts better than lateral flyes.

OK, so I’m playing devils advocate, but you see what I mean.

Also, whilst big compound movements are unquestionably the best for ALL OVER development, they can easily leave certain body parts laggin behind, so in those few muscles, they clearly do NOT produce the biggest HT effects.

Bushy[/quote]

Not to be an ass, but I have had the best luck with Seated Smythe presses behind the head for mid delts. Worked better for me than lat raises.

What seems to be missing from greater consideration in this discussion is that some will benefit from presses, others from flyes, until the dominant and subordinant muscle groups are evened out.

I am chest dominant. If I want to improve my bench the best exercise I have found is clean/press because my tris and shoulders tend to lag. If I want to add size to my chest, a combination of press, flyes and weighted push-ups. I have not found one alone that works particularly well for overall aesthetics.

But in my shoulders, my front delts tend to do most of the work so the behind the head movement mentioned above helps my develop the mid delts.

My point: there is no single answer. Which is why the sage bodybuilders in my gym said to always begin any advice with “what has worked for me…”

One move I have not seen mentioned for the upper chest that I find useful is a slight (5 to 15 degress) decline smyth press where you bring the bar down to your clavicle keeping elbows wide. Good stretch, and “it has worked for me.”

85

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Joe Joseph wrote:
Yeah… sorry, but how the fuck can you say ANY fly movement - in REALITY, not theory - can cause the hypertrophy that any of the presses can?

AND who the fuck thinks that big, compound moves dont cause the biggest HT effect? Joe

Calm yourself down for a minute my friend and answer me this…

If you are so sure that compound movements are always superior to flying movements, tell me which compound shoulder movement (or back movement) will develop my middle delts better than lateral flyes.

OK, so I’m playing devils advocate, but you see what I mean.

Also, whilst big compound movements are unquestionably the best for ALL OVER development, they can easily leave certain body parts laggin behind, so in those few muscles, they clearly do NOT produce the biggest HT effects.

Bushy[/quote]

Upright Rows!!

They can, but read my post… i say comp. are the basis for my bulk and size (which i read YEARS ago, and didnt realize just how much) and i utilize isolative exercises to “shape” and sculpt my body. i am a bodybuilder and not a PL after all.

But this guy has decided to go the total opposite way, than alot of guys here who ONLY use conpound, so as to justify the use of only isolation.

I was arguing a point but the truth is i personally use both in my training, as you bushy my friend, are correct!

Joe

86

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Joe Joseph wrote:
Yeah… sorry, but how the fuck can you say ANY fly movement - in REALITY, not theory - can cause the hypertrophy that any of the presses can?

AND who the fuck thinks that big, compound moves dont cause the biggest HT effect? Joe

Calm yourself down for a minute my friend and answer me this…

If you are so sure that compound movements are always superior to flying movements, tell me which compound shoulder movement (or back movement) will develop my middle delts better than lateral flyes.

OK, so I’m playing devils advocate, but you see what I mean.

Also, whilst big compound movements are unquestionably the best for ALL OVER development, they can easily leave certain body parts laggin behind, so in those few muscles, they clearly do NOT produce the biggest HT effects.

Bushy

Not to be an ass, but I have had the best luck with Seated Smythe presses behind the head for mid delts. Worked better for me than lat raises.

What seems to be missing from greater consideration in this discussion is that some will benefit from presses, others from flyes, until the dominant and subordinant muscle groups are evened out.

I am chest dominant. If I want to improve my bench the best exercise I have found is clean/press because my tris and shoulders tend to lag. If I want to add size to my chest, a combination of press, flyes and weighted push-ups. I have not found one alone that works particularly well for overall aesthetics.

But in my shoulders, my front delts tend to do most of the work so the behind the head movement mentioned above helps my develop the mid delts.

My point: there is no single answer. Which is why the sage bodybuilders in my gym said to always begin any advice with “what has worked for me…”

One move I have not seen mentioned for the upper chest that I find useful is a slight (5 to 15 degress) decline smyth press where you bring the bar down to your clavicle keeping elbows wide. Good stretch, and “it has worked for me.”[/quote]

LOL! i like you…!

I tell you what, i have only just begun playing with declines recently as i never had any time for them before, and i found what you say to be true… instead of lowering to the lower chest to use max weight and take advantage of the reduced ROM,(and stimulating my over stimulated triceps some more) i lowered the weight and lowered the bar more to mid/upper chest - not quite clavicles though - and i found a great stretch going on in my lower pecs - i believe, and so i shall be employing that style of barbell decline press when i bring them back to life!

Joe

87

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Well I don’t agree with most things that NP writes, but then I also think anyone who says that “All you need is heavy pressing to build your pecs” lives in a very one-dimensional universe. They have never suffered from delt and tricep domanance.

CT said it best. Learn to recruit the pecs in their proper fashion, before using heavy pressing.

For me, pec flyes, done in the bottom 45 degrees of the range, have done this for me. How I can press and activate my pecs, whereas before, I couldn’t. To me that is QED.

Bushy[/quote]

Sorry bro, but I disagree. If you are shoulder and tricep dominant widen your grip on the barbell and keep your upper back and butt on the bench and you will shift the emphasis to your pecs. Now one with a small bench to begin with might not want to do this because your bench number will shrink further, but if you can put the ego aside and do it, your pec dominated bench numbers will start to go up and your pecs will start to grow.

D

88

[quote]Joe Joseph wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
Joe Joseph wrote:
Yeah… sorry, but how the fuck can you say ANY fly movement - in REALITY, not theory - can cause the hypertrophy that any of the presses can?

AND who the fuck thinks that big, compound moves dont cause the biggest HT effect? Joe

Calm yourself down for a minute my friend and answer me this…

If you are so sure that compound movements are always superior to flying movements, tell me which compound shoulder movement (or back movement) will develop my middle delts better than lateral flyes.

OK, so I’m playing devils advocate, but you see what I mean.

Also, whilst big compound movements are unquestionably the best for ALL OVER development, they can easily leave certain body parts laggin behind, so in those few muscles, they clearly do NOT produce the biggest HT effects.

Bushy

Not to be an ass, but I have had the best luck with Seated Smythe presses behind the head for mid delts. Worked better for me than lat raises.

What seems to be missing from greater consideration in this discussion is that some will benefit from presses, others from flyes, until the dominant and subordinant muscle groups are evened out.

I am chest dominant. If I want to improve my bench the best exercise I have found is clean/press because my tris and shoulders tend to lag. If I want to add size to my chest, a combination of press, flyes and weighted push-ups. I have not found one alone that works particularly well for overall aesthetics.

But in my shoulders, my front delts tend to do most of the work so the behind the head movement mentioned above helps my develop the mid delts.

My point: there is no single answer. Which is why the sage bodybuilders in my gym said to always begin any advice with “what has worked for me…”

One move I have not seen mentioned for the upper chest that I find useful is a slight (5 to 15 degress) decline smyth press where you bring the bar down to your clavicle keeping elbows wide. Good stretch, and “it has worked for me.”

LOL! i like you…!

I tell you what, i have only just begun playing with declines recently as i never had any time for them before, and i found what you say to be true… instead of lowering to the lower chest to use max weight and take advantage of the reduced ROM,(and stimulating my over stimulated triceps some more) i lowered the weight and lowered the bar more to mid/upper chest - not quite clavicles though - and i found a great stretch going on in my lower pecs - i believe, and so i shall be employing that style of barbell decline press when i bring them back to life!

Joe[/quote]

I suggest if you go to the clavicle (for upper chest) you use a smyth, cause…well…failure (gasp) would suck. Also, it does not take much of a decline so the adjustable benches work well. Let me know how they work for you.

90

[quote]UkpairehMombooto wrote:
That would definitely be good and WILL add plenty of size, but adding some “flying” movements as post-exhaust or for other purposes is always a good idea if maximal hypertrophy is a goal. The cable crossover is always good for this. The dumbbell flyes are simply worthless over the ROM that most trainees perform them.
Besides, I believe (and I may be in a minority) that adding isolation movements for the chest can improve performance in the pressing movements and the net result is …well…quite nice.
[/quote]

I agree that flying movements have their place, but I wouldn’t call them a ‘mass-builder’ by any means. I didn’t want anyone reading over N.P.'s post and being fooled into thinking they should be the primary exercise in anyone’s program.

91

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
And a nice touche on your middle delt answer. Although I will say, as someone who cares deeply about his shoulder health, I will never perform either behind the neck press, or upright rows :wink:

Both are closed-packed positions that offer more risk than reward, IMO.

Bushy[/quote]

This is off topic, how do upright rows negatively affect the shoulders? I just saw this, and had to post because I do them all the time.

92

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
And a nice touche on your middle delt answer. Although I will say, as someone who cares deeply about his shoulder health, I will never perform either behind the neck press, or upright rows :wink:

Both are closed-packed positions that offer more risk than reward, IMO.

Bushy[/quote]

This is off topic, but how do upright rows negatively affect the shoulders? I just saw this, and had to post because I do them all the time.

93

[quote]Joe Joseph wrote:
Nominal Prospect wrote:

If you train like a bodybuilder, you can change your appearance in a single workout, due to tissue/fascia expansion and glycogen saturation. I can put half an inch on somebody’s chest in a single session with my way of training.

Good luck doing that with your heavy bench press, lol. Dave Tate doesn’t even have functioning pecs and he presses over 450.

I am not gonna get into this bulshit argument, i dont really get where it came from… BUT… i think i agreewith this, i look vastly different after a workout due to the pump etc…

But a heavy (for me) bench can do this too…

Joe[/quote]

If you’re over 20% BF you can’t tell that you have a pump anyways, so the point is moot.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Then why do you agree with it? I train heavy. I also get a pump when training. Who the fuck doesn’t?[/quote]

No one who trains in the 5 rep range or lower gets a pump while training. That includes most strength athletes. Dave Tate is known for writing things like, “Forget the pump and put some damn weight on the bar”. He says that because he subscribes to the fatboy mentality that moving heavy weight is more important than seeing your muscles. Bodybuilding is exactly the opposite. You can argue all day but everybody who has a clue about the respective sports knows it’s the truth.

[quote]Radjxf wrote:
I vote this as the single most ignorant post, possibly ever on T-Nation.[/quote]

With a claim like that, I was expecting a refutation of some sort.

Yet I can’t find one. Why not?

[quote]Radjxf wrote:
I’d LOVE to train with you sometime. Might be an eye-opener.[/quote]

Likewise. Let me know if you’re ever in Boston.

[quote]Radjxf wrote:
Seriously, get over your insecurity around bigger stronger guys and refrain from giving bad advice.
[/quote]
“Bigger, stronger” guys like who? Dennis James? Gunter Schlierkamp? Dennis Wolf? Jay Cutler? Markus Ruhl, etc…? Most of these guys would back me up on everything I wrote, so I’m not quite sure what you’re on about.

94

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
No one who trains in the 5 rep range or lower gets a pump while training. That includes most strength athletes. Dave Tate is known for writing things like, “Forget the pump and put some damn weight on the bar”. He says that because he subscribes to the fatboy mentality that moving heavy weight is more important than seeing your muscles. Bodybuilding is exactly the opposite. You can argue all day but everybody who has a clue about the respective sports knows it’s the truth.[/quote]

Bullshit.

It is a waste of time replying to you for your own benefit, but I don’t want some newbie actually believing that you can’t get a pump if you do several sets with only five reps with heavy weight.

Tate wrote that because the goal is not to get a pump. The goal is to lift heavy weight that promotes strength (and size) gains.

I’m not even wasting time on anything else you’ve written.

96

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Dirty_Bulk wrote:
bushidobadboy wrote:
And a nice touche on your middle delt answer. Although I will say, as someone who cares deeply about his shoulder health, I will never perform either behind the neck press, or upright rows :wink:

Both are closed-packed positions that offer more risk than reward, IMO.

Bushy

This is off topic, how do upright rows negatively affect the shoulders? I just saw this, and had to post because I do them all the time.

If you look at the anatomy, you’ll see that during the upright row, your shoulders are maximally internally rotated and abducted.

This what is known as a 'close packed position. In other words, the joint capsule is at end range, ‘winding’ the joint up tight, and approximating structures that aren’t meant to be approximated, then subjected to heavy load, again, and again, and again.

In other words, upright rows load your shoulders in an ‘unnatural’ anatomical position, likely causing accelerated degeneration of the joint.

To put it yet another way, there is an orthopaedic shoulder test (Hawkins-Kennedy) that is used to approximate the tendonous insertion of the supraspinatus against the coraco-acromio ligament in cases of suspected impingement syndrome. The testing position is almost identical to that used during the upright row. So you can possibly see how the testing position (used to elict pain) and the exercise position are too close for comfort.

It is my belief that upright rows will dramatically increase the liklihood of shoulder injury or at least, cause accelerated wear.

Bushy[/quote]

I use the “Armpit Row” most trap workouts, it is where you get a DB around 50-70% of DB shrug weight and pull them up so as to shove them into your armpits. It cannot be done, but it is an excellent trap, middle delt and trap/delt tie in exercise.

it is basically an upright row, with dumbells, and neutral grip, in the frontal plane. It is a perfect alternative to upright rows eliminating the problems you highlighted Bushy.

Joe

98

[quote]Xen Nova wrote:
…or clavicular region

thats always been a problem for me i think my shoulders take over from there when i do incline exercises.

i have decent shoulders and a very big upper back/yoke, so i look pretty funny

just curious thanks guys[/quote]

Breast augmentation. End of discussion.

99

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Sounds intriguing, though I suspect it will only reduce rather than eliminate the problems, because you are still in maximum internal rotation.

But yes, you have eliminated some of the horizontal adduction that will grind the greater tubercle of the humerus against the acromion.

I might give them a try, out of curiosity :wink:

Bushy[/quote]

No internal rotation, it is hands by your side all the movement, semi sup (neutral)… see what i mean? Like pulling trousers up as far as possible!! lol
You could actually EXTERNALLY rotate a little to overcompensate for years of internally rotated work!
Joe

100

[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Tex Ag wrote:

Not to be an ass, but I have had the best luck with Seated Smythe presses behind the head for mid delts. Worked better for me than lat raises.

What seems to be missing from greater consideration in this discussion is that some will benefit from presses, others from flyes, until the dominant and subordinant muscle groups are evened out.

I am chest dominant. If I want to improve my bench the best exercise I have found is clean/press because my tris and shoulders tend to lag. If I want to add size to my chest, a combination of press, flyes and weighted push-ups. I have not found one alone that works particularly well for overall aesthetics.

But in my shoulders, my front delts tend to do most of the work so the behind the head movement mentioned above helps my develop the mid delts.

My point: there is no single answer. Which is why the sage bodybuilders in my gym said to always begin any advice with “what has worked for me…”

One move I have not seen mentioned for the upper chest that I find useful is a slight (5 to 15 degress) decline smyth press where you bring the bar down to your clavicle keeping elbows wide. Good stretch, and “it has worked for me.”

Of course, of course, I was trying to make the same point, that anyone who says “There is only one way”, lacks depth of understanding about the body and the nervous system.

And a nice touche on your middle delt answer. Although I will say, as someone who cares deeply about his shoulder health, I will never perform either behind the neck press, or upright rows :wink:

Both are closed-packed positions that offer more risk than reward, IMO.

Bushy[/quote]

Good points. I thought about this and realize I use a rather short range of motion and rotate my hands a bit during the move, i.e. they are not locked in the whole time. I tried to replicate this using the power cage as a guide and found that the motion was more limited (up and down) and not as focused since there was more movement front and back.

Still, only thing that has put width on my shoulders. I promise to be careful.