I want to start the argument that Randy Moss was better than Jerry Rice. In Minnesota Moss had Cunningham, culpepper, and gus frerotte passing to him. For most of his career Rice had Montana and Steve young passing to him. Rice also had Bill Walsh genius mind create the west coast offense. Obviously Moss isn’t going to win the stat war, but Rice had many advantages moss didn’t have. Also if you go by the eye test moss is better. If I have one receiver to start a team with all time it is Randy Moss without a doubt.
[quote]aliceinchains wrote:
I want to start the argument that Randy Moss was better than Jerry Rice. In Minnesota Moss had Cunningham, culpepper, and gus frerotte passing to him. For most of his career Rice had Montana and Steve young passing to him. Rice also had Bill Walsh genius mind create the west coast offense. Obviously Moss isn’t going to win the stat war, but Rice had many advantages moss didn’t have. Also if you go by the eye test moss is better. If I have one receiver to start a team with all time it is Randy Moss without a doubt.[/quote]
Moss being a child and a misfit and wasting a few years of his career clearly tarnishes his standing in a discussion such as GOAT standing.
So you take Moss because his peak is maybe the best of any receiver ever, but is that what he actually gives your team?
Also those Viking team didn’t fail to win it because their offense couldn’t put up points. Cunningham and Culpepper may not be Montana and Young but that’s because Montana is 4 up 4 down in the Super Bowl and Young was an incredibly unique talent, don’t make it sound like Moss was getting the ball thrown to him by some scrubs like he’s a Brown’s receiver or something. Carter caught balls from those guys too.
-
I already mentioned this somewhere in this thread, but Jerry Rice caught 92 passes for 1200 yards from Rich Gannon on the Raiders when he was 40 freaking years old. I think we can safely dismiss the idea that Rice owed all of his success to playing with great QBs.
-
In general, I dislike the notion of penalizing guys who played with great teammates. Partly because it’s a chicken or egg problem (maybe Montana and Young look so good all those years because they’re throwing to Rice? Or does Rice look so good because he has Montana and Young? Maybe that ALL look so god because they’re coached by Walsh?) and partly because luck is just PART OF SPORTS.
It’s a lazy argument to say “Jim Brown played with three HOF offensive linemen and Barry Sanders played with zero” - for one, Brown’s guys are probably in the HOF party because they blocked for Jim Brown. For two, those guys would have been retired for a lot longer so of course they’ve had more time to get inducted (disclaimer: I haven’t looked to see who the Browns guys are, when they got inducted, or if any Lions OL are realistic future candidates, although I’m guess no…maybe Lomas Brown had a case?). And for three, comparing across era when there was a different number of teams in the league is problematic. In the NBA, every team from the 60’s has a couple of Hall of Famers on it because there were fewer teams overall. That makes it easier to end up with three Hall of Fame offensive linemen.
There’s SO much more to this discussion than just “this guy had better teammates than that guy.”
***edited to add: so I took a quick look. Lomas Brown was the draft’s sixth overall pick in 1985 and made seven straight Pro Bowls for Detroit. Kevin Glover was their second round pick and was a four-time All Pro. Maybe Barry wasn’t running behind a wall of HOF guys but let’s not pretend he was playing behind a bunch of scrubs either.
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
- I already mentioned this somewhere in this thread, but Jerry Rice caught 92 passes for 1200 yards from Rich Gannon on the Raiders when he was 40 freaking years old. I think we can safely dismiss the idea that Rice owed all of his success to playing with great QBs.
[/quote]
I dont believe people can appreciate this until they actually get 40 years old. I cant imagine going out there right now and playing a football game, I would shatter like glass.
Great post, Activities Guy.
A few points: Instead of rating an offensive line by the number of HOF’ers, look at the number of Pro-Bowl players. Of the top 100 running backs since 1950, Jim Brown played with the most Pro-Bowl offensive linemen (Emmitt Smith is #6, Sanders is #32, Payton is #78).
The most. Of every running back.
In fact, they were so good that running backs on the Browns NOT named Jim Brown gained an average of 4.52 yards per carry.
Let that sink in for a minute. Running back not named Jim Brown carried for more average yards than Payton did over his career (4.36). I could have run behind that line and gotten 3 yards a carry.
Additionally, Brown was coached by Paul Brown and was playing for a team that had just come off a number of NFL championships. Payton, early in his career, was coached by guys like Jack Pardee and Neil Armstrong and the Bears hadn’t made a playoff appearance in 15 years.
If I want the best football player - someone who can run, hit a hole, punish the defenders, gain additional yards after contact, and pick up the pass rush - I’m choosing Payton with Jim Brown as a close second.
If I want someone who’s going to prance around in the backfield in a climate-controlled dome I’ll choose Sanders.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Great post, Activities Guy.
A few points: Instead of rating an offensive line by the number of HOF’ers, look at the number of Pro-Bowl players. Of the top 100 running backs since 1950, Jim Brown played with the most Pro-Bowl offensive linemen (Emmitt Smith is #6, Sanders is #32, Payton is #78).
The most. Of every running back.
In fact, they were so good that running backs on the Browns NOT named Jim Brown gained an average of 4.52 yards per carry.
Let that sink in for a minute. Running back not named Jim Brown carried for more average yards than Payton did over his career (4.36). I could have run behind that line and gotten 3 yards a carry.
Additionally, Brown was coached by Paul Brown and was playing for a team that had just come off a number of NFL championships. Payton, early in his career, was coached by guys like Jack Pardee and Neil Armstrong and the Bears hadn’t made a playoff appearance in 15 years.
If I want the best football player - someone who can run, hit a hole, punish the defenders, gain additional yards after contact, and pick up the pass rush - I’m choosing Payton with Jim Brown as a close second.
If I want someone who’s going to prance around in the backfield in a climate-controlled dome I’ll choose Sanders.
[/quote]
Great points…for a Bears fan
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
Great post, Activities Guy.
A few points: Instead of rating an offensive line by the number of HOF’ers, look at the number of Pro-Bowl players. Of the top 100 running backs since 1950, Jim Brown played with the most Pro-Bowl offensive linemen (Emmitt Smith is #6, Sanders is #32, Payton is #78).
The most. Of every running back.
In fact, they were so good that running backs on the Browns NOT named Jim Brown gained an average of 4.52 yards per carry.
Let that sink in for a minute. Running back not named Jim Brown carried for more average yards than Payton did over his career (4.36). I could have run behind that line and gotten 3 yards a carry.
Additionally, Brown was coached by Paul Brown and was playing for a team that had just come off a number of NFL championships. Payton, early in his career, was coached by guys like Jack Pardee and Neil Armstrong and the Bears hadn’t made a playoff appearance in 15 years.
If I want the best football player - someone who can run, hit a hole, punish the defenders, gain additional yards after contact, and pick up the pass rush - I’m choosing Payton with Jim Brown as a close second.
If I want someone who’s going to prance around in the backfield in a climate-controlled dome I’ll choose Sanders.
[/quote]
Great points…for a Bears fan [/quote]
hahahha, yep.
[quote]Derek542 wrote:
[quote]ActivitiesGuy wrote:
- I already mentioned this somewhere in this thread, but Jerry Rice caught 92 passes for 1200 yards from Rich Gannon on the Raiders when he was 40 freaking years old. I think we can safely dismiss the idea that Rice owed all of his success to playing with great QBs.
[/quote]
I dont believe people can appreciate this until they actually get 40 years old. I cant imagine going out there right now and playing a football game, I would shatter like glass.[/quote]
Ha. I’m more than a decade younger and I can’t imagine going out and playing a football game. I just hope I can still walk upright when I’m 40.
For that reason, it really cheeses me off when people use “but he played with Montana and Steve Young” to downplay Jerry Rice’s greatness. Was that a fortunate stroke for him? Of course. But he seized the opportunity, and then later in his career after he moved on, he still was among the league’s best WR’s at age 40 in a different offense with a journeyman QB.
I definitely acknowledge that teammates, coaches, etc play a huge role in any athlete’s success. But for one, that luck is still part of sports, and for two, in Jerry Rice’s specific case we have evidence that he was still great elsewhere with a QB that’s definitely not in the Montana/Young class. Again, the chicken/egg thing. Gannon looked awfully good once he got to play with Jerry Rice and Tim Brown.
Pangloss, I like your point that # Pro Bowls as a guage of OL quality is probably a little better guage than HOFers because HOF is yes/no thing (that’s also a pretty rare event) while # Pro Bowls reflects whether they were among the league’s best in that season. The 3-HOF-to-0 makes it seem like more of a landslide than it does when we note that Barry Sanders’ line did have two multiple-Pro-Bowl-and-All-Pro selections, so while those guys aren’t quite HOF-worthy, he did have a few quality horses in front of him.
I still would note that a lineman’s Pro Bowl status is tied to team success and/or the quality of the guys running and passing behind him, although the NFL generally does a pretty good job of recognizing great OL’s on bad teams (Joe Thomas being one example).
I like pangloss’s stats on Jim Brown, 4.5 yac for other backs pretty damn impressive line. It’s easier to get the running game going in bad weather, so bringing up that Barry played in a dome just makes no sense. Domes only help quarterbacks and kickers.
I doubt that offensive line ranking system brings the fullback into account. Emmitt Smith had the greatest blocking fullback ever. I am also sure if the ranking brings fullback into discussion Barry’s line is ranked worse.
[quote]aliceinchains wrote:
I like pangloss’s stats on Jim Brown, 4.5 yac for other backs pretty damn impressive line. It’s easier to get the running game going in bad weather, so bringing up that Barry played in a dome just makes no sense. Domes only help quarterbacks and kickers.[/quote]
Its not easier to get the running game going in bad weather??? It is just more effective because its harder to get separation from corners in snow covered winter mess (mush equalizes speed), and also passing/catching are more technical than handing off and therefore harder to do when hands and muscles get cold. Domes help everybody, especially speedy players, like Sanders. Everything is easier in a dome (except defense). Everything is harder when its cold and wet (except defense).
Basically-
The Ultimate Insult - May God Have Mercy On Your Soul - Billy Madison (Academic Decathlon) - YouTube
Jim Brown to Barry Sanders.
Sopwith Camel to the F15.
Do the same thing, but at a very different time and evolution in the game.
Wilt or Shaq?
With regard to the Pro Bowl vs HOF debate, were Pro Bowlers back in the day selected by different method than todays? ie Not just a popularity contest
[quote]aliceinchains wrote:
I doubt that offensive line ranking system brings the fullback into account. Emmitt Smith had the greatest blocking fullback ever. I am also sure if the ranking brings fullback into discussion Barry’s line is ranked worse.[/quote]
Emmitt Smith started crying when talking about Moose during his hall of fame induction speech. Hugged Moose and cried when he broke the record. He acknowledges how important Moose was to his career.
One thing that brings Barry down just a little bit, is I know he had at least 1 game where he got 1 yard rushing total for the day. That’s 1 yard. He had multiple plays in his career where he was running around in the backfield and got a lose on the play.
Sometimes a two yard run is a better run than a 30 yard run.
[quote]Aggv wrote:
Jim Brown to Barry Sanders.
Sopwith Camel to the F15.
Do the same thing, but at a very different time and evolution in the game.
Wilt or Shaq? [/quote]
Kareem!!
he averaged more yards per game than any back in history. Jim and Barry are the only guys in NFL history to average 5 yards a carry. So even if he took a loss on some runs he still averaged 5. The reason he had some bad games in his career, is because the box was stacked 8 against him every down. Defensive coordinators gameplanned for him and him only when the lions came to town
[quote]aliceinchains wrote:
he averaged more yards per game than any back in history. Jim and Barry are the only guys in NFL history to average 5 yards a carry. So even if he took a loss on some runs he still averaged 5. The reason he had some bad games in his career, is because the box was stacked 8 against him every down. Defensive coordinators gameplanned for him and him only when the lions came to town[/quote]
You sure those DC’s didn’t have to take 4x Pro-Bowler Herman Moore and Brett Perriman into account? Moore and Perriman were the first pair of wide receivers to have 100 catches apiece in the NFL. The were also the first pair to put up 1400 yards each in a season.
[quote]Dr. Pangloss wrote:
[quote]aliceinchains wrote:
he averaged more yards per game than any back in history. Jim and Barry are the only guys in NFL history to average 5 yards a carry. So even if he took a loss on some runs he still averaged 5. The reason he had some bad games in his career, is because the box was stacked 8 against him every down. Defensive coordinators gameplanned for him and him only when the lions came to town[/quote]
You sure those DC’s didn’t have to take 4x Pro-Bowler Herman Moore and Brett Perriman into account? Moore and Perriman were the first pair of wide receivers to have 100 catches apiece in the NFL. The were also the first pair to put up 1400 yards each in a season.[/quote]
I love some good revisionist history.
Again taking an example from my sports bible, Bill Simmons’ Book of Basketball, the legend goes that Bill Russell only won more championships than Wilt Chamberlain because Russell was playing with a collection of Hall of Famers and Wilt was flanked by a bunch of stiffs. Except that, it turns out, Wilt actually played with more All-Stars and future HOF players than Russell.
It’s very easy to talk ourselves into a narrative of Player X valiantly going it all alone while Player Y had a much better supporting cast. But you’ve gotta do a little fact checking. Pangloss correctly points out that Barry played with some very good WRs.