EDIT: I’m not talking about RESTRICTING calories thought the day, thats valid and well practiced (shifting the majority of calories to a specific window - nutrient timing) but not having any at all throughout the day and especially in the AM is asking for long term stress related issues. [/quote]
But this is the whole point! Many fasts geared towards active people are not actual fasts at all because you are still ingesting nutrients, e.g. Warrior Diet, Pulse Fast. The key elements are quantity and timing, which are organised to promote fat burning, growth hormone (during the undereating phase), and anabolism following the overeating phase.
I would suggest if these conditions are achieved then the argument that it’s a cortisol-inducing diet is false, or at best - very misleading.
Is the point to just get some calories in, or to specifically illicit a insulin response to blunt cortisol? I ask because a 10-15 grams of whey would provide about 80-100 cal depending on the brand by a very low insulin response.
Is the point to just get some calories in, or to specifically illicit a insulin response to blunt cortisol? I ask because a 10-15 grams of whey would provide about 80-100 cal depending on the brand by a very low insulin response. [/quote]
Actually…whey can produce a pretty legitimate insulin response.
[quote]Gl;itch.e wrote:
Thanks Modok for your reply. Why would you think “fasting” for 16 hours a day (8 of which is asleep) is equal to chronic stress? [/quote]
Its stress because during that time your body is in a sympathetic nervous system dominant state. Cortisol and catecholamines have to remain high so your body can find and consume some food. Have you ever tried to go to sleep on an empty stomach and felt “wired”? The SNS is why. Lack of food is seen as a stress situation to the body. These same hormonal conditions are seen in any stressful situation the body finds itself in. All it wants to do is eat and let the PNS take over ( the rest and digest portion of the nervous system). It is a useful tool for acute fat loss, but a lifestyle with low-level chronic stress to the body like these daily long fasts will eventually cause bad things to happen. Breaking SNS dominance with a small amount of food (like the WD for example) would remedy this to a great extent.
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OK I understand that. But I’m not sure that this situation even comes up if you are doing this smartly. A big meal the night before would take ages to digest. To suggest that the body enters a stressful situation just because you haven’t eaten in a certain number of hours is looking at things from the wrong perspective. Digestion is still continuing to happen. This digestion is still providing ample nutrition. In my experience trying to force down lots of food at 5-6 feedings a day (most during work hours) only means that you do NOT enter into the parasympathetic state required to digest food properly. This, in my opinion, is a far more negative stressor to the body than waiting for 4-8 hours after waking to eat another meal. This drip feeding of calories might work if you have a low stress job and can basically sit around on your ass and rest and digest. For those with high stress jobs I feel that their chemistry would benefit from eating at times when they can truly relax and unwind. This is why I have recently adopted an IF feeding approach. And despite not lowering calories significantly I am losing body fat far easier than ever before. All the while I don’t even feel like I’m dieting and my strength is being maintained and in some areas still improving.
Don’t get me wrong however. I will always be open to different ideas, and if things ever stopped working, or I started feeling unhealthy I would look for ways to fix the situation. For instance I plan to use this dieting strategy to lose some fat and then I plan to try putting on some weight using it. If it doesn’t work for gaining I will obviously have to go back to more frequent feedings.
Modok, what do you think about using a mix of BCAA/EAA/Leucine (in lieu of breakfast/lunch) to blunt cortisol and the negative effects of the fasting/underfeeding period.
Curious to hear your thoughts to the response on your previous comments “but a lifestyle with low-level chronic stress to the body like these daily long fasts will eventually cause bad things to happen”
From EliteFTS:
“Everyone, whether they train or not, has a natural rise of cortisol through the night hours that peaks first thing in the morning upon waking and subsides within 2 hours or so. Only chronic stress?of the mental, emotional or physical kind, such as over-training?will keep cortisol levels elevated all day.”
Curious to hear your thoughts to the response on your previous comments “but a lifestyle with low-level chronic stress to the body like these daily long fasts will eventually cause bad things to happen”
From EliteFTS:
“Everyone, whether they train or not, has a natural rise of cortisol through the night hours that peaks first thing in the morning upon waking and subsides within 2 hours or so. Only chronic stress?of the mental, emotional or physical kind, such as over-training?will keep cortisol levels elevated all day.”[/quote]
As I’ve said several times now, fasting many hours every day is also a chronic stress. If its done over the long term you may see negative effects on your health. Other than that, I don’t know that I can add any more to the discussion than what I’ve already said. Its a fascinating topic, and I’m glad we’ve had a chance to kick it around a little.[/quote]
I appreciate all of your insight and expertise on this topic, you truly add a lot of value to this site.
[quote]Arpie wrote:
Modok, what do you think about using a mix of BCAA/EAA/Leucine (in lieu of breakfast/lunch) to blunt cortisol and the negative effects of the fasting/underfeeding period.
Thanks[/quote]
It would certainly be better than fasting. I suppose it would depend on the amount. I’d prbably want to get around 10-15 g before I felt comfortable that was enough.[/quote]
Wouldn’t this be similar to taking MAG-10 such as the Pulse Feast?
By the way Modok, thanks for all the great insight on your posts.
[quote]fnf wrote:
Wouldn’t this be similar to taking MAG-10 such as the Pulse Feast?
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Posts like these sound lazy and devoid of any research into IF protocols. The recent cortisol comments, although valid, have sidetracked basic research into the authors of IF. Pulse Feast, Warrior Diet, Leangains, all offer guidance on what to consume during the fast. That’s right, DURING the fast. But unless you read it, and maybe experiment with it, you’ll never know.
So 15g with some greens powder replacing breakfast and 15g at lunch would be enough? Is there a better alternative? I was thinking of making a mix 60/20/20 mix (BCAA/EAA/Leucine) which gives 12g of protein with 48 cals. I have a preexisting adrenal gland issue which means I have to take supplemental hydrocortisone so I’d like to reduce any strain on them.