Berardi Does Intermittent Fasting

Nutrition
21

Anyway, without wanting to go on a back-and-forth argument with IFers, I would want to ask several questions on IF itself (since I plan to run a “trial period” of 4-8 weeks IFing, Berardi style).

  1. Anyone had issues with gastritis? And stomach acid buildup over long periods of not eating?

  2. Berardi mentions the “mental fog” involved during the skipping breakfast period. Anyone experience that? Also, regarding the initial moodiness that almost forced him to quit LeanGains 2 weeks in - would that be minimized by slowly moving mealtimes back until you get to 16/8 instead of cold turkey like John did?

  3. MODOK makes great points on elevated cortisol level. I am wondering if you switched LG around to eat in an 8-hour window in the morning (6-2pm) rather than the standard noon feast if that would be somewhat healthier?

22

@Modok: I always appreciate hearing your thoughts on this subject. They’re cogent and seem more informed by science rather than speculation. After hearing you talk about IF a few times, I’m invariably left with the awareness that I know so very little about dieting.

Would you mind sharing what your own approach to eating looks like? To which approach do you subscribe? I’m really curious and I’m in a place where I need to tighten my diet back up. After IF, I kinda went on a bender of eating and it’s time to get disciplined again.

23

@NotaQuitta

My results using IF with Berkhan’s paid consultation:

  • Lost approximately 25 lbs of bodyweight
  • noticeably leaner
  • noticeably weaker in the bench and squat; other lifts stayed at a decent level
  • terrible gastritis and diarrhea
  • awful mood, no sex drive, and I was always feeling pretty “off”

I tried Michael Keck’s Modified Warrior diet for a 2 week stint. It was really easy to maintain, but I was voracious by dinner. At the same time, it got increasingly more difficult to hit my macros during the brief evening eating window. In those two weeks, I did not feel any effects to my strength level and I believe I may have lost a pound or two.

Personally, I just don’t prefer to eat this way. I was a big fan of these approaches and read everything available online. I was a fanboy. I even told others to give it a try. In the end, it did not help me to achieve my personal goals. Your miles may vary. I’m certainly jealous of those for whom it seems to work and fits into their lifestyle.

24

[quote]NotaQuitta wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]NotaQuitta wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]NotaQuitta wrote:
Hang on, not so fast. I’ve read Berardi’s guidebook last night, and I think it’s great and really really well-written. It also seems to outline all the drawbacks of IF (albeit slightly subtly), particularly Berkhan’s Leangains method that seems to ALWAYS get glossed over by certain fanboys.

Let me say again that I have no issue with the IF program itself - but it is NOT a silver bullet catch-all program. Definitely not. It sure has its place, but IMHO - its only for a) people who are already big as a temporary measure to get lean, b) people who definitely don’t want to get big, c) definitely not for newbs (especially skinny ones).

Notice that from Berardi’s own results:

a) He was already relatively well-developed (before pics)

b) His training throughout the IF program was LIGHT. 1 45-min upper body strength session, 1 lower body strength session, 1 30 min upper body circuit session and 10 min of sprinting. With 2 rest days (practically 4 rest days if we discount the sprinting as light fasted cardio). That’s not really a lot of volume there.

c) On his training days when he had to intake 3,200 cals - he himself stated the slight difficulty in getting that volume of food down in 8 hours.

d) He barely gained any appreciable weight on 4 weeks on leangains. 4 pounds, most of it water and the rebound effect off a severe 2-day-a-week-fasted diet.

Here’s my take on it - if you’re already an advanced lifter, you can get shredded on it and you can maintain that shredded look much easier than on one of those crazy contest prep diets. No argument for me, its probably wonderful.

But its hard to bulk on it and its ABSOLUTELY not for newbies. Berardi can get away with 2 45-min strength sessions and 1 circuit training a week because he was already advanced and had a relatively good base level of strength. Skinny newbies who struggle to lift a 30lb dumbell will never progress on this program (IMO of course).[/quote]

The thing that is really going to get overlooked is that his entire goal was to lose BODYWEIGHT to compete in track. He was not training as a bodybuilder, training to maintain/refine/add mass or training for strength gains. People will see his after picture where he is peeled at 171 and be sold, not recalling he was peeled at 191 using conventional dieting as well. IF is just a way of dieting, and isn’t appreciably better or worse than conventional dieting for fat loss results. I have expressed what I like about it, and what its drawbacks are several times. In the end, bodybuilding dieting is about compliance. If you can comply with one style over the other with no adverse effects on your outside life, no decrease in gym performance, etc then that is the diet for you.

The marketing is simply amazing to me though. Its shocking how, if you simply brand some concept, how people just lap it up. Same thing that the folks did by slapping the label “paleo” on meat and vegetables 10 years ago. “Eat your veggies”. “NO!” “But the anthropologists say cavemen ate them.” " Pass that fuckin’ delicious kale."
[/quote]

Just wanted to note that when he was doing the 16/8 daily fast LeanGains style, he was actually gaining too much weight for track and was going beyond 175 lbs (as he noted, he speculated this was due to an increase in lean mass, i.e. topped off glycogen and water stores). This is when he added in the full day fast on Sunday, in addition to the 16/8 fasting, to get himself back into the track weight of 170-175 lbs.[/quote]

PBAndy, you can’t discount the fact that he was rebounding from an extreme diet of 2 completely fasted days a week that threw his metabolism and body systems into havoc.

Plus even he admitted that most of the weight gain was water and glycogen, not muscle. My guess was if he continued doing the 16/8 method he would eventually reach a plateau where he would be able to maintain the weight but not gain.

Can people gain on LeanGains? Maybe. Is it optimal? I’m guessing not. [/quote]

The only thing I disagree with you is that you say ‘maybe’. Of course it’s possible to gain on LeanGains, in the end it comes down to calories. As to whether it’s optimal or not… that depends entirely on the person. BugAD said it best in another thread…

“As long as you can eat enough calories, you can gain weight/muscle/strength while IFing leangains style (seen it with myself and other I know). There seems to come a point (though you are no where near this) that I’ve seen with some bigger, more advanced guys I know, where they simply cannot eat enough calories in that 8 hour window to gain weight (over 5000/day).”

Even Michael Keck, a big ass, ripped ass powerlifter dude, wrote up an article for EliteFTS called the Modified Warrior Diet.

http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/nutrition/the-modified-warrior-diet/[/quote]

TBH, I have some skepticism believing you can put the actual requisite lean mass without the fat gain. Even while recomping, you usually gain some fat (albeit less than traditional bulking) for a reduced gain in lean mass.

Why not do this the smart way and do a traditional “clean” bulk and use IF to cut down the fat in 4-8 weeks? That way, not only do you optimize your muscle gain but you also use IF in the purpose it’s intended. Makes sense to me.

Btw, Michael Keck was already huge long before he went on IF.[/quote]
Good post MODOK. So let’s say someone was to do fasting for the purported health benefits, how would you go about it? One full daily fast every week (like Berardi did in the 1st month)?

NotaQuitta, with IF, the way ‘re-comping’ works is that you have higher calorie, higher carb days on days that you lift, and on days you don’t lift, you have caloric deficit and concentrate on protein/fat. This way of eating doesn’t really work for me personally since I’m lifting 5-6x week (in addition to prowler work).

Yes, I do realize Michael Keck was quite big before his fasting thing, but you don’t see his muscle just falling off.

25

[quote]Squatzenheimer wrote:
@Modok: I always appreciate hearing your thoughts on this subject. They’re cogent and seem more informed by science rather than speculation. After hearing you talk about IF a few times, I’m invariably left with the awareness that I know so very little about dieting.

Would you mind sharing what your own approach to eating looks like? To which approach do you subscribe? I’m really curious and I’m in a place where I need to tighten my diet back up. After IF, I kinda went on a bender of eating and it’s time to get disciplined again.[/quote]
If I can chime in for MODOK here, he goes about things via the Anabolic Diet, so he’s very low carb for 6 days I think? The Anabolic Diet calls for a re-feed on the weekend but MODOK gains fat on the approach, so he opts for a 1/2 cheat day (in the evening) instead.

If anything I said was wrong, please correct me.

26

[quote]Squatzenheimer wrote:

Personally, I just don’t prefer to eat this way. I was a big fan of these approaches and read everything available online. I was a fanboy. I even told others to give it a try. In the end, it did not help me to achieve my personal goals. Your miles may vary. I’m certainly jealous of those for whom it seems to work and fits into their lifestyle. [/quote]
I have fooled around with IF, Warrior Diet, Pulse Feast, whatever… it’s not for me either.

I always resort back to Berardi-inspired eating: 1) breakfast (P+F), 2) lift (P+C), 3) lunch (P+C), 4) big ass ‘health’ shake (P+F & berries), 5) dinner (P+F).

Carbs on the lower side right now b/c I’m trying to get under 10%.

27

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]NotaQuitta wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]NotaQuitta wrote:

[quote]PB Andy wrote:

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]NotaQuitta wrote:
Hang on, not so fast. I’ve read Berardi’s guidebook last night, and I think it’s great and really really well-written. It also seems to outline all the drawbacks of IF (albeit slightly subtly), particularly Berkhan’s Leangains method that seems to ALWAYS get glossed over by certain fanboys.

Let me say again that I have no issue with the IF program itself - but it is NOT a silver bullet catch-all program. Definitely not. It sure has its place, but IMHO - its only for a) people who are already big as a temporary measure to get lean, b) people who definitely don’t want to get big, c) definitely not for newbs (especially skinny ones).

Notice that from Berardi’s own results:

a) He was already relatively well-developed (before pics)

b) His training throughout the IF program was LIGHT. 1 45-min upper body strength session, 1 lower body strength session, 1 30 min upper body circuit session and 10 min of sprinting. With 2 rest days (practically 4 rest days if we discount the sprinting as light fasted cardio). That’s not really a lot of volume there.

c) On his training days when he had to intake 3,200 cals - he himself stated the slight difficulty in getting that volume of food down in 8 hours.

d) He barely gained any appreciable weight on 4 weeks on leangains. 4 pounds, most of it water and the rebound effect off a severe 2-day-a-week-fasted diet.

Here’s my take on it - if you’re already an advanced lifter, you can get shredded on it and you can maintain that shredded look much easier than on one of those crazy contest prep diets. No argument for me, its probably wonderful.

But its hard to bulk on it and its ABSOLUTELY not for newbies. Berardi can get away with 2 45-min strength sessions and 1 circuit training a week because he was already advanced and had a relatively good base level of strength. Skinny newbies who struggle to lift a 30lb dumbell will never progress on this program (IMO of course).[/quote]

The thing that is really going to get overlooked is that his entire goal was to lose BODYWEIGHT to compete in track. He was not training as a bodybuilder, training to maintain/refine/add mass or training for strength gains. People will see his after picture where he is peeled at 171 and be sold, not recalling he was peeled at 191 using conventional dieting as well. IF is just a way of dieting, and isn’t appreciably better or worse than conventional dieting for fat loss results. I have expressed what I like about it, and what its drawbacks are several times. In the end, bodybuilding dieting is about compliance. If you can comply with one style over the other with no adverse effects on your outside life, no decrease in gym performance, etc then that is the diet for you.

The marketing is simply amazing to me though. Its shocking how, if you simply brand some concept, how people just lap it up. Same thing that the folks did by slapping the label “paleo” on meat and vegetables 10 years ago. “Eat your veggies”. “NO!” “But the anthropologists say cavemen ate them.” " Pass that fuckin’ delicious kale."
[/quote]

Just wanted to note that when he was doing the 16/8 daily fast LeanGains style, he was actually gaining too much weight for track and was going beyond 175 lbs (as he noted, he speculated this was due to an increase in lean mass, i.e. topped off glycogen and water stores). This is when he added in the full day fast on Sunday, in addition to the 16/8 fasting, to get himself back into the track weight of 170-175 lbs.[/quote]

PBAndy, you can’t discount the fact that he was rebounding from an extreme diet of 2 completely fasted days a week that threw his metabolism and body systems into havoc.

Plus even he admitted that most of the weight gain was water and glycogen, not muscle. My guess was if he continued doing the 16/8 method he would eventually reach a plateau where he would be able to maintain the weight but not gain.

Can people gain on LeanGains? Maybe. Is it optimal? I’m guessing not. [/quote]

The only thing I disagree with you is that you say ‘maybe’. Of course it’s possible to gain on LeanGains, in the end it comes down to calories. As to whether it’s optimal or not… that depends entirely on the person. BugAD said it best in another thread…

“As long as you can eat enough calories, you can gain weight/muscle/strength while IFing leangains style (seen it with myself and other I know). There seems to come a point (though you are no where near this) that I’ve seen with some bigger, more advanced guys I know, where they simply cannot eat enough calories in that 8 hour window to gain weight (over 5000/day).”

Even Michael Keck, a big ass, ripped ass powerlifter dude, wrote up an article for EliteFTS called the Modified Warrior Diet.

http://articles.elitefts.com/articles/nutrition/the-modified-warrior-diet/[/quote]

TBH, I have some skepticism believing you can put the actual requisite lean mass without the fat gain. Even while recomping, you usually gain some fat (albeit less than traditional bulking) for a reduced gain in lean mass.

Why not do this the smart way and do a traditional “clean” bulk and use IF to cut down the fat in 4-8 weeks? That way, not only do you optimize your muscle gain but you also use IF in the purpose it’s intended. Makes sense to me.

Btw, Michael Keck was already huge long before he went on IF.[/quote]
Good post MODOK. So let’s say someone was to do fasting for the purported health benefits, how would you go about it? One full daily fast every week (like Berardi did in the 1st month)?

NotaQuitta, with IF, the way ‘re-comping’ works is that you have higher calorie, higher carb days on days that you lift, and on days you don’t lift, you have caloric deficit and concentrate on protein/fat. This way of eating doesn’t really work for me personally since I’m lifting 5-6x week (in addition to prowler work).

Yes, I do realize Michael Keck was quite big before his fasting thing, but you don’t see his muscle just falling off. [/quote]

The WD or MWD would eliminate many of the concerns. The sunday fast/saturday cheat is basically what I have done for a long as I can just about remember. Its hard to eat on sunday after a big saturday cheat.

What you are wanting to avoid is constant, chronic straight fasting for long periods through the day…particularly during the AM hours. Reversing the LG approach to fast in the PM, eatin sparsely (but eating nonetheless) like the WD would eliminate most of the long term health concerns with IF.[/quote]
I see… I personally wouldn’t be able to do the reverse LeanGains approach, I hate even being a little hungry before bed.

However, a Saturday cheat day + a Sunday fast sounds absolutely extraordinary now that you mention it. I made that ‘veggie fasting’ thread and I really liked it, I think I will continue with that. When you do a Sunday fast, do you skip dinner on that night as well and wait until morning, or do you pick up where you left off 24 hours before? I’m assuming Sunday was no food, since it is, after all, a Sunday ‘fast’, lol.

I’ve also been doing a modified warrior diet, without really trying, or realizing it 'til now. It’s been like this:

12pm - 8 oz. lean meat , small handful nuts, broccoli, 3 Flameout/4 FA3

^^ these days the meat has been chicken sausage, turkey sausage, bison, or 90% sirloin steak burgers

3pm - MD Muscle Growth shake (3 scoops), big handful berries or an apple

4pm - lift (1 Anaconda, 2 MAG-10, 1 SWF)

7pm - 12-14 oz. protein, lots of rice or a sweet potato (both cooked w/ butter), veggies

10pm - 2 scoops MD, 1 tbsp raw cocoa nibs, 1 tbsp almond butter, 4 FA3

1am - 3 eggs w/ ham/veggies/coconut oil, 3 Flameout

28

[quote]PB Andy wrote:
stealing my thunder bro, stealing my thunder…

but yeah, very good read. [/quote]

LOL. I was wondering what you were talking about, then checked out the IF bulking thread. I wasn’t even reading that one. Impressive that Berardi actually tried this, especially with all his talk about eating frequently througout the day.

I personally have enjoyed IF. Skipping breakfast just makes life easier and since I work out in the evening 2 out of 3 times, It’s great having a 2000 calorie feast of protein/carbs.

29

[quote]MODOK wrote:

[quote]Squatzenheimer wrote:
@Modok: I always appreciate hearing your thoughts on this subject. They’re cogent and seem more informed by science rather than speculation. After hearing you talk about IF a few times, I’m invariably left with the awareness that I know so very little about dieting.

Would you mind sharing what your own approach to eating looks like? To which approach do you subscribe? I’m really curious and I’m in a place where I need to tighten my diet back up. After IF, I kinda went on a bender of eating and it’s time to get disciplined again.[/quote]

Thanks. My approach is simple. Granted, I am not trying to gain mass anymore, so things would have to be adjusted for the individual. And I do have the means to buy high quality food now, which I understand many cannot. But my diet is low carb, high quality local food. I belong to both a meat and a veggie CSA, and buy raw dairy locally as well. So the majority of my calories come from fats and proteins with vegetables and fruits for the roughage, vitamins, and bulk. The rest of the diet is various fats (nuts, cocnut oil, etc.) On saturday I eat whatever I please and I have usually always done exactly what Berardi did in the book and fast on sunday…just because I still feel full and bloated from saturday. Workout is either a BCAA or protein drink peri and post.
[/quote]

I’ll have a higher protein/fat day…carbs in trace amounts 3 days a week…all on rest days. Saturday is one of those days…then Sunday I train around 4:30-5ish fasted (10g BCAA before, another 10g BCAA during) and PWO I’ll eat w.e. I want until I goto sleep…around 1030pm-11pm. The following day, I’ll fast…train with BCAAs again in the evening and have a PWO shake, then 1 balanced meal…so approx. 1000kcal that day. By Tuesday/Wednesday…I’m back to my baseline that I was at Sunday morning before the massive cheat/refeed.

I follow normal cals/macros for rest days and training days accordingly for all other days of the week. So Basically…Sunday eat w.e…usually upwards of 5-6000kcal…followed by a full day fast or atleast a very low cal day (~1000kcal).

30

I’m on my 3rd week of IF. Not going to lie, the 1st 2 weeks were tough as nails. It’s hard to skip breakfast, not eat when others are eating & not eat at lunch time(12pm). But this 3rd week has been a real eye opener. I know it’s still to soon but I’m pretty convinced about this way of eating.

It’s liberating not being strapped to eating 6x a day(like I have been used to). Thinking about sneaking in a meal between breakfast & lunch while I’m at work. Worrying that if I don’t eat at x amount of time I will slow down my metabolism. It’s also very rewarding to down 2lbs of steak after a tough workout.

I like how Marc(lean gains) back up his stuff with some studies(cherry pick for you harsh critics) But I was sold & had to try for myself before knocking IF. There are some things I don’t agree with. Like fasted training. I’m a amateur muay thai fighter so there is no way I’m going to do a 2hr thai boxing session with only 10g of BCAA 10mins before training. This might work for weekend warriors or just physique seeking weight lifters, but sounds like disaster for any other athletes. I’m aware of Marcs “adaption” theories & studies but it’s obvious that carbs= better performance.

31

deadramones,

What time is your thai boxing? Martin(not Marc)'s default method is one moderate sized pre workout meal so unless that is in the morning it should be no real issue.

32

[quote]MODOK wrote:
You already started seeing a little peak of that from Berardi’s pre and post blood panels.
[/quote]

This had me worried. After reading the whole book though, it would be hard to pin these changes on any one style of IF. It would have been more relevant if Berardi had his blood work done after each trial period. Interesting reading though.

33

[quote]Scott M wrote:

Martin(not Marc)'s default method is one moderate sized pre workout meal so unless that is in the morning it should be no real issue. [/quote]

Not sure where JB got the idea that LG’s recommends fasted training. I know Martin states that if you must train during the fast to consume BCAA’s. But I, like many choose the 1 pre-workout meal path.

34

Yes, nowhere have I seen Martin insist that you must train fasted. In fact, the point of Martins style of IF is to be flexible. Just like paleo extremists, there are leangains extremists that insist you must train fasted to be following leangains IF. I haven’t seen Martin push this as a critical factor to success on his program at all. He puts a lot of information out there, and it’s up to the reader to determine how to best fit it into their schedule.

35

[quote]Squatzenheimer wrote:
@NotaQuitta

My results using IF with Berkhan’s paid consultation:

  • Lost approximately 25 lbs of bodyweight
  • noticeably leaner
  • noticeably weaker in the bench and squat; other lifts stayed at a decent level
    - terrible gastritis and diarrhea
    - awful mood, no sex drive, and I was always feeling pretty “off”

I tried Michael Keck’s Modified Warrior diet for a 2 week stint. It was really easy to maintain, but I was voracious by dinner. At the same time, it got increasingly more difficult to hit my macros during the brief evening eating window. In those two weeks, I did not feel any effects to my strength level and I believe I may have lost a pound or two.

Personally, I just don’t prefer to eat this way. I was a big fan of these approaches and read everything available online. I was a fanboy. I even told others to give it a try. In the end, it did not help me to achieve my personal goals. Your miles may vary. I’m certainly jealous of those for whom it seems to work and fits into their lifestyle. [/quote]

I bolded three statements above:

  1. About the gastritis and diarrhea. Do you attribute that to fasting, big meals or just what you were eating? I personally find that if I consume a lot more meat and fat I’ll get some runny / very loose stool. I don’t think it’s from IF per say as it is the foods you consume.

  2. I find this any time I’ve cut cals too low. IF or otherwise.

  3. If you don’t prefer to eat this way, then IF is probably not for you.

36

[quote]ds1973 wrote:
3) If you don’t prefer to eat this way, then IF is probably not for you.[/quote]

37

@MAF14 Obviously it’s not for me. That was the point of my post, which I thought was fairly evident. As I said, I’m jealous of those for whom this is a viable approach, which implies that I believe some can do well on it - I didn’t.

@DS1973 To respond to your points:
1 the gastritis and diarrhea, I believe, was from eating such a large volume of protein, fat, and BROCCOLI at each sitting. I had to eliminate broccoli for a while, which helped. Also, my body was clearly telling me to stop eating when I began sweating profusely and felt like i would throw up.

2 I hear you about the effects of cutting cals, and in a post I wrote elsewhere, i stated that it’s hard for me to know to what extent these adverse effects were due to IF or just dieting alone. However, after a two week stint on MWD, with fairly low cals mind you, I felt great. Made me wonder about the amount of fat I was eating on IF.

3 yeah, not for me. I’m smart enough to recognize when something is going to be tough to sustain and when I should cut and run. I never said IF doesn’t work for some, but I now recognize and appreciate when some say it’s not meant for everybody.

38

I dont see how he could struggle getting in 3200. I know a guy who eats this way every day and he easily gets in 5000-6000 cals every day and has one cheat day a week where he gets in even more. He is 5’ 10 210 about 7% BF. I would say 90% of his cals are “clean”.

Its personal just like everything else is in BB. Like MODOK has said compliance is key. But long term health should be on everyones mind since this a a marathon not a sprint.

39

MODOK, I’ve read you saying about cortisol issues and possible drawbacks of going long term with fasting. I also read about reversing IF (to the afternoon instead) or a more sensible approach in terms of a MWD and I thought that was pretty interesting. Not many people can go to bed without having something on their stomachs though.

Now, is it that important to have breakfast when you wake up, or is there a leeway to it? Say you wake up at 6h30 and you have BF at 10h00 is that too late for it to become an issue with cortisol and the glucocortisomethings (pardon my ignorance)?

And can you check your PM inbox?

40

[quote]Squatzenheimer wrote:
@MAF14 Obviously it’s not for me. That was the point of my post, which I thought was fairly evident. As I said, I’m jealous of those for whom this is a viable approach, which implies that I believe some can do well on it - I didn’t.
[/quote]

i know. i was just emphasizing that as a statement in general