I think it kind of depends on your personal mechanics and levers. For example, I feel best when deadlifting with a pretty close stance and fairly straight legs / high hips. I am, however, pretty bad at squatting. I’ve tried every squat and have yet to find a variation that consistently feels good or tracks properly. Stiff leg close stances deadlifts and walking lunges feel good 10/10 times, so I stick with those.
From what you write, my guess is that you have long legs relative to your torso. That describes me.
The wider your squat stance the better your squat will feel. So, you want to get wide enough that the squat doesn’t feel like two or three different movements. You are looking to feel like like a single movement. But the wider you get, after that removes more quad evolvement.
Great point, when I see a handful of 800+ deadlifters they all pull different. I saw one guy get his hips really low and use a lot of leg to get the bar moving.
It seems most people can get to 405 just muscling it, but after that it really becomes a task of adjusting your body into the position that keeps that bar staying straight up when moving. That’s were the real back thickness gets developed, is my opinion.
Franco built his back size from what 4xtimes BW Deadlift? That what it takes for huge wings. The pull-ups and other stuff just icing on the cake. Just my opinion. Arnie and Franco, there is no comparison to the backs, Franco destroyed him in back.
I agree with the leverage comments already made.
I would elaborate that people are generally well meaning, but often project what works for them as “right”. Maybe it is for them, but not another with different leverages. Maybe it’s not, even for them, but they just power through and experience “in spite of themselves” success.
You’ll hear all kinds of advice on “best” grip width, elbow angles et cetera for bench press, foot placement for squats, bar placement for squats, positioning for deads and so on.
There’s always a mechanical advantage discussion, which makes sense on paper but doesn’t always translate to the human body and its many variables.
IMO, whatever position lets you set up on the deadlift and pull weight without discomfort (not to confused with the feeling of strenuous effort) is correct. Even if it means moving the bar an extra 2” vs a different stance or method.
I personally line up with a leg width I would use for a vertical jump, draw my shoulders back and down, squat to the bar, pull it to my shins and that’s my stance/grip width. There’s usually a little tightening up to do after rolling the bar in place but it doesn’t alter anything.
My hips are higher than some people and lower than others, my feet are wider than some and narrower than others. I don’t care. I deadlift a touch over 2.5x body weight as a 42 year old amateur/hobbyist powerlifter.
Initial drive is key, IMO, so set up for that. At least on conventional. The rest is continuing through a kinetic chain, with maybe a little power addition through the hips and glutes as you come up - But then we all have our strong points and sticking points so there’s that.
You probably went too heavy.
I do have long legs relative to torso.
What other movements have you used successfully to target your quads?
Is/was your squat stance as wide as what Louie Simmons teaches, for example?
Heavy Leg Press where I did 10 reps on all sets, after warming up. This was my primary thigh stimulator before I figured out how to squat efficiently. And I didn’t figure out the squat until I was 40 years old (1989).
I have never looked at anyone’s suggestions on how to squat. Please note that the internet didn’t exist when I was competing, and I was more of a pioneer at that time. In other words, I don’t know the squat stance width that Simmons teaches. But I know that my leverage got better the wider my stance.
You need to understand that I was doing squats to increase the size of my thighs. And I believed that the narrower the squat stance, the greater the quad involvement. That belief hindered me figuring out how to squat for my body.
I also believed that moving the most weight caused the greatest stimulation. During my 40’s my squat stance was not near sumo width, but obviously wider than shoulder width. It was a width that could easily get into walking the bar out of the rack.
Before I learned to squat properly my squat had three stages:
- Raising my hips out of the hole (I had to get low enough to get white lights in the powerlifting meets)
- Doing what looked more like a Good Morning than a squat
- Finally locking out the last 1/4 of the squat
Once I mastered the form, it became one continuous lift. My stance was just wide enough to allow my squat to feel like one movement and not three distinct stages. Any wider and the quad benefit would suffer.
The issue is I couldn’t lift heavy that way.
My deadlift stayed the same, for years.
The point of the thread is deadlift and muscle development, lifting the same weight for years does not aid in muscle development, the needs new heavier loads to adapt to.
I even lighten up and did high reps, I posted a vid in another thread doing 30+ reps via hip hinge, it eventually hurt my back even with light weights, no good leg drive.
The hip hinge is a movement, not a technique. I think that’s where you’re getting confused. Deadlifts are a movement that includes a hip hinge, but aren’t just a hip hinge.
I never found much value in really breaking down my deadlift into component movements or looking at it that way at all.
I brace with a torso full of air, do a jazzy little shake of my hands, get into position, get rid of slack in the bar and my body and then…
“Stand up with the bar by pushing the world away from you”.
lifting the same weight for years does not aid in muscle development, the needs new heavier loads to adapt to.
This is a good point. If you’re training deads and instead of getting stronger all you’re getting is a sore back, it’s probably time to get rid of them. They’re probably not building much mass for you.
You are not one for moderation, are you?
This is how I do my Stiff Legged Deadlifts from the floor. This is one of my big Hamstring and glute exercises and it doesn’t really tax my lower back at all. It may be important to check your form from the side and make sure you don’t have a hinge point in your spine that’s taking on the load.
I gotta say because I just did these last night for hypertrophy, a deficit dumbbell or trapbar deadlift!!!
I did 2-reps last night using a pair of hammer bars from 5” deficit and my entire back right now feels like a ninja turtle shell, I feel a slab of hard lat beef just hanging from my back.
All I did was 2-heavy reps with a shrug after being very well warmed up.
I would also say don’t use straps on these with dumbbells because the torque on them will add to the full body and lat and trap stimulus!
I started feeling this 3-hours afterwards.
The deficit makes it a squat too. Lower back is not hampered at all.
I have done some band work before. It’s difficult to set up, but feels really cool. I default to chains, just because it’s simpler. Big fan of that though.
How do you keep from landing the plates on the chains? That’s my biggest annoyance with the setup
My chains are long enough that they don’t come off the floor fully at the lockout, so they tend to stay in place.
That particular set up was also helpful, since the pavers kind of trapped the chains in place. Moving them in closer toward the feet can go a long way too.
I believe this is a requirement, especially if you plan on doing more than singles. You don’t need any movement in any direction other than up or down. When the chains start swinging, you have a stability issue.
Post dermatomyositis, I used reverse bands for a few months doing deadlifts. I used two pair of Blue bands. It took more than 275lbs to get the bar to rest on the ground. At the standing upright position the bands were just starting to slack, but not move on the bar. I usually went straight to 315lbs, and added weight from there.
After Charles Bailey added an apparatus to use bands from the bottom (It took raising the platform in a power rack. Bands from the bottom were just too brutal and taxing for doing what you would describe as heavy deadlifts.
Try deficits with a snatch grip for extra turtle power.