And more on the 500 cal deal. Lets say you set baseline calories at 2500 for your newb. After two weeks of diet and training he has gained a little muscle, and leaned up so you give him 500 more calories. Even if the 3000 is too much for the first two weeks and he gians a little to much fat, you probably could leave cals right where they are because his newb gains will catch up to the calories he is eating.
You have to remember that you are dealing with a trainee in a newb that should be making rapid gains in LBM if his body is being fed correctly so those 500 cal increments shouldn’t be to much for his rapidly growing body to absorb quickly.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
And more on the 500 cal deal. Lets say you set baseline calories at 2500 for your newb. After two weeks of diet and training he has gained a little muscle, and leaned up so you give him 500 more calories. Even if the 3000 is too much for the first two weeks and he gians a little to much fat, you probably could leave cals right where they are because his newb gains will catch up to the calories he is eating.
You have to remember that you are dealing with a trainee in a newb that should be making rapid gains in LBM if his body is being fed correctly so those 500 cal increments shouldn’t be to much for his rapidly growing body to absorb quickly.[/quote]
Not to mention the fact that unless you are literally accounting for ALL activity including calories spent climbing stairs or brushing teeth, few trainers aside from the elite or very advanced need to track calories so closely to the tune of “200”.
There has to be a buffer for variables in even calorie expenditure.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
And more on the 500 cal deal. Lets say you set baseline calories at 2500 for your newb. After two weeks of diet and training he has gained a little muscle, and leaned up so you give him 500 more calories. Even if the 3000 is too much for the first two weeks and he gians a little to much fat, you probably could leave cals right where they are because his newb gains will catch up to the calories he is eating.
You have to remember that you are dealing with a trainee in a newb that should be making rapid gains in LBM if his body is being fed correctly so those 500 cal increments shouldn’t be to much for his rapidly growing body to absorb quickly.[/quote]
Not to mention the fact that unless you are literally accounting for ALL activity including calories spent climbing stairs or brushing teeth, few trainers aside from the elite or very advanced need to track calories so closely to the tune of “200”.
There has to be a buffer for variables in even calorie expenditure.
[/quote]
That’s why I like the method of counting I used with Shelby and alot of diet coaches similarly use I believe. You only count base macros…carbs in oats and not fat or pro, protein in turkey and not fat. Stuff like that. Daily macros are usually easy numbers to memorize too. I’ll never understand daily macros like 243/347/74. Why not just say 250/350/75 and make life easier?
Look, we have all been there if we take lifting seriously at all.
Cybergenics, Hottstuff, vanadyl sulfate, “plant sterols”, bulls testicles, and boron.
That is all most of this fitness related propaganda strikes me as. The old heads have seen it so many times before we quit listening for it. Magazines for bodybuilding used to be a free for all for supplement ads. They may still be but I haven’t picked one up in a few years.
There will always be a new hysteria for the masses. The hip try to be hipper…until it is more hip to be unhip…and then the cycle keeps on rolling.
If there is one thing I would tell a newb…it is to learn what your body can do with food and intense training alone FIRST. Yes, creatine actually does have benefits, but that would be one out of millions of wannabes over the decades with pockets emptied across the nation for the quest for secrets.
Your main weapon is real food and maybe a protein shake to help with calories. The rest of the arsenal is in the gym. If you can learn how to make yourself grow first, everyone else will be falling behind you in the long run.
That just made me think about something I read from Dan John once. Any time a kid asks him a question about supplements, he first asks them if they floss twice a day. By his reasoning, if you are unwilling to do something as simple as take a couple minutes out of your day to floss, which has been proven time and time again to be very beneficial to our health, how do you think you have the necessary discipline to be ready for supplements. I dunno why but that always stuck with me.
I think it was Bauber that wrote about a kid asking him for advice and what he took and all this but after he tried to help him he found him in the locker room in the gym eating M&M’s as his first meal of the day, in the evening. I have found this to be pretty typical of a lot of newbs. They are looking for that magic powder or pill. They are perfectly willing to spend $56 a day on supplements but live on pizza pockets and Ramen noodles because eating healthy “is to expensive”.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I think it was Bauber that wrote about a kid asking him for advice and what he took and all this but after he tried to help him he found him in the locker room in the gym eating M&M’s as his first meal of the day, in the evening. I have found this to be pretty typical of a lot of newbs. They are looking for that magic powder or pill. They are perfectly willing to spend $56 a day on supplements but live on pizza pockets and Ramen noodles because eating healthy “is to expensive”.[/quote]
Yep, and he still asks me for advice. He is a nice guy in general except for he asks you questions and then tells you the answer after you tried to explain it to him. For instance, he wants to do physique and has absolutely not muscle or tone AT ALL and thinks all he needs to do is lose 10 pounds and he will win shows. That and saying hes 10 weeks out and going to go ahead and pull his water out…
[quote]cally wrote:
I teach 6 fitness courses every year at the high school level and I find 90% of them under eat and complain they are not gaining weight. Within those 6 courses, I train on average 120-150 students across 6 years of work so I have a pretty good sample size (in the neighborhood of 1000 total students).
I have them track their cals for 2 weeks and they are shocked at their findings. Its the best thing I have found to get them to move up the scale, track their cals. Even if only for a short period. [/quote]
It is also why increases of around 500cals makes more sense as a new trainer rather than wasting time trying to nail it down within 100-200 calorie increases. Newbs need a sawed off, not a sniper rifle. The human body is too variable.[/quote]
I made no claims as to a 100-200 cal increase, ever. So I’m not sure why you bring that up within my statement. Im fully aware the body is variable. My point was that newbs have no idea how much they are eating until they track it. They think they eat plenty when in fact the opposite is true.
Look, we have all been there if we take lifting seriously at all.
Cybergenics, Hottstuff, vanadyl sulfate, “plant sterols”, bulls testicles, and boron.
That is all most of this fitness related propaganda strikes me as. The old heads have seen it so many times before we quit listening for it. Magazines for bodybuilding used to be a free for all for supplement ads. They may still be but I haven’t picked one up in a few years.
There will always be a new hysteria for the masses. The hip try to be hipper…until it is more hip to be unhip…and then the cycle keeps on rolling.
If there is one thing I would tell a newb…it is to learn what your body can do with food and intense training alone FIRST. Yes, creatine actually does have benefits, but that would be one out of millions of wannabes over the decades with pockets emptied across the nation for the quest for secrets.
Your main weapon is real food and maybe a protein shake to help with calories. The rest of the arsenal is in the gym. If you can learn how to make yourself grow first, everyone else will be falling behind you in the long run.
[/quote]
Good point. I get supplement questions all the time. Even from individuals who have yet to lift a single weight. The industry needs to be more regulated in terms of claims made by supplements. I took a lesson from Dan John and when asked such questions I ask them how many days a week do they train, are they progressing, how many meals a day do they get, what do pro/carbs/fats do, etc. They get the point rather quickly.
[quote]cally wrote:
I teach 6 fitness courses every year at the high school level and I find 90% of them under eat and complain they are not gaining weight. Within those 6 courses, I train on average 120-150 students across 6 years of work so I have a pretty good sample size (in the neighborhood of 1000 total students).
I have them track their cals for 2 weeks and they are shocked at their findings. Its the best thing I have found to get them to move up the scale, track their cals. Even if only for a short period. [/quote]
It is also why increases of around 500cals makes more sense as a new trainer rather than wasting time trying to nail it down within 100-200 calorie increases. Newbs need a sawed off, not a sniper rifle. The human body is too variable.[/quote]
I made no claims as to a 100-200 cal increase, ever. So I’m not sure why you bring that up within my statement. Im fully aware the body is variable. My point was that newbs have no idea how much they are eating until they track it. They think they eat plenty when in fact the opposite is true.
[/quote]
I was responding in general to many statements made before yours that seemed to think “500cals” was too much for a newb.
I wasn’t disagreeing with anything you wrote.
I definitely agree with most “undereating” in general but thinking they always eat a ton. Much of this comes down to making all that is a required a regular activity…like meal planning, cooking and eating. You don’t gain 50lbs of muscle without spending some serious quality time in the kitchen as well as the gym.
First, I am a newb compared to the experts here, but I would like to share my insights.
I had a great trainer in my first gym (which was a great gym, not the shitty gym I get today in Paris…), and I make really great progress, like 20 pounds in 6 / 7 months. (I was very very very scrawny).
He had :
designed a general template for a 3-days a week first
listened to my nutrition, asking precisely what I ate
gave me some info about food
never tried to make me take supps (I took them from myself, asking his opinion)
very very well adapted my routine to my feedbacks and how I perform
See, every newb is different. For instance, I sucked at DB rowing. I was unable to keep my back straigtht. He gave me exercises to fix back posture and flexibilty and after some months of self exercising with a broomstick I was able to do it. Same goes for overhead press. Pressing overhead would lead to awful DOMS mixed with other tendinitis-like pain and my results were very poor. He adapted the routine and changed the exercise.
After a while, I asked to work out 5 times a week because I found that I was not effective in training arms or shoulders the same day that big body parts like back / legs.
Split routine worked for me, as long as I wanted volume, and slow strength gains…
It is what I enjoy the most. I don’t like total body workouts. They are convenient and fast and give great results too, I am sure, but I like to get the split routine feelings. I also like to be at the gym 4/5 times a week in order to get my mind in training mode.
As a beginner, routines like SL5x5 left me with great strength gains, size gains too, but after 2 months my lower back and knees were destroyed and I was not able to live my life without fatigue. It may be great for people with schedules allowing them 10 hours sleep nights or people with very fast recovery (god I am so jealous of them), but not for the newb I am, working 10 hours a day.
This is true. That is why I have written that I would follow what a newb has been doing up to that point long before I ever started throwing a template at them to train by.
You have to know where someone is coming from before you can give them any insight into where they are going.
Everyone does not work by the same template…which is why I believe in giving a “skeleton” of a workout and allowing for adjustments to be made based on the needs of that individual.
Beware of trainers who act as if everyone is the exact same as a newb.
As far as “splits vs full body” I don’t even care to start a war over that. I just know I see more really huge guys who don’t train that way than do and it works better for me to train in regards to body parts trained that day. I will always feel as if those who desire well balanced growth anywhere near “extreme” that this is the best way to go. Others can believe what they want.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
I am actually glad I did not have access to all this web-info when I started out.
With an old dingy musky gym with leaky pipes, and plenty of views of the Rocky movies, I was initiated into the old school the right way. [/quote]
It really seems to be holding a lot of people back rather than pushing them forward.
You make yourself push…when you walk into a gym and see some gym girl lifting more than you and every other guy bench pressing an amount of weight you can’t even imagine picking up at all.
You can’t feel that over the internet.
You can’t find the advice of the people who have made the most progress…because some guy just released a video on youtube who says don’t listen to them even though he looks like he just started as well.
I think most are at risk now of there being just way too many points of view and too many voices.
They can’t find their way because they are getting pummeled by a thousand voices all saying they know the one and only way if they can show it or not.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
I think it was Bauber that wrote about a kid asking him for advice and what he took and all this but after he tried to help him he found him in the locker room in the gym eating M&M’s as his first meal of the day, in the evening. I have found this to be pretty typical of a lot of newbs. They are looking for that magic powder or pill. They are perfectly willing to spend $56 a day on supplements but live on pizza pockets and Ramen noodles because eating healthy “is to expensive”.[/quote]
Yep, and he still asks me for advice. He is a nice guy in general except for he asks you questions and then tells you the answer after you tried to explain it to him. For instance, he wants to do physique and has absolutely not muscle or tone AT ALL and thinks all he needs to do is lose 10 pounds and he will win shows. That and saying hes 10 weeks out and going to go ahead and pull his water out…[/quote]
I wonder why so many kids want to be ultra lean and ‘abstastic’ before anything else these days, fussing over calorie restriction and bf before any actual muscle or strength. I remember kids wanted to be big back in the day
maybe its a counter to the rise of obesity, certain movie star looks, popstars, i don’t know. Maybe its no different then and now really
I do not think its a big deal to worrying about getting lean before gaining this is honestly the only site where I see ppl arguing that gaining form a Lean state is not better than when carrying extra bf. it’s also much easier to see progress. And a newb will be able to lose bf and gain strength easily. Then once lean using the new strength to move weights and take advantage of better gains of muscle to fat.
Course that does depend on goals if only strength is a concern well then that’s a different story. But even plers should try and stay as lean as possible while hitting strength prs that way they can dominate the lowest weight class while being competitive
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
Course that does depend on goals if only strength is a concern well then that’s a different story. But even plers should try and stay as lean as possible while hitting strength prs that way they can dominate the lowest weight class while being competitive [/quote]
There seems to be a recent trend in powerlifting, even where size for the sake of size is not the way to go. Size should only be added when it is necessary to increase strength. Ed Coan is one that is commonly pointed to as the ideal for increasing size proportionally along with strength. You have got guys that are average 220lbers that could be 181 lb beasts all for the sake of not wanting to put the time in to eating correctly.
[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:
I do not think its a big deal to worrying about getting lean before gaining this is honestly the only site where I see ppl arguing that gaining form a Lean state is not better than when carrying extra bf. it’s also much easier to see progress. And a newb will be able to lose bf and gain strength easily. Then once lean using the new strength to move weights and take advantage of better gains of muscle to fat. [/quote]
Sure and I don’t include tubby kids wanting to get some control but kids like in baubers example who aspire to muscularity but don’t focus on growing muscle as the main priority, seems to me like they’re losing precious time as they could grow and get to learn about food and maybe get some ‘newb’ gains and fat loss all at once as you suggested
[quote]cally wrote:
I teach 6 fitness courses every year at the high school level and I find 90% of them under eat and complain they are not gaining weight. Within those 6 courses, I train on average 120-150 students across 6 years of work so I have a pretty good sample size (in the neighborhood of 1000 total students).
I have them track their cals for 2 weeks and they are shocked at their findings. Its the best thing I have found to get them to move up the scale, track their cals. Even if only for a short period. [/quote]
It is also why increases of around 500cals makes more sense as a new trainer rather than wasting time trying to nail it down within 100-200 calorie increases. Newbs need a sawed off, not a sniper rifle. The human body is too variable.[/quote]
I made no claims as to a 100-200 cal increase, ever. So I’m not sure why you bring that up within my statement. Im fully aware the body is variable. My point was that newbs have no idea how much they are eating until they track it. They think they eat plenty when in fact the opposite is true.
[/quote]
I was responding in general to many statements made before yours that seemed to think “500cals” was too much for a newb.
I wasn’t disagreeing with anything you wrote.
I definitely agree with most “undereating” in general but thinking they always eat a ton. Much of this comes down to making all that is a required a regular activity…like meal planning, cooking and eating. You don’t gain 50lbs of muscle without spending some serious quality time in the kitchen as well as the gym.[/quote]