Just want to hear some lifters’ thoughs on behind the neck pulldowns and shoulder presses behind neck.
Pros and Cons???
or are the cons just myths???
Just want to hear some lifters’ thoughs on behind the neck pulldowns and shoulder presses behind neck.
Pros and Cons???
or are the cons just myths???
[quote]notafob wrote:
Just want to hear some lifters’ thoughs on behind the neck pulldowns and shoulder presses behind neck.
Pros and Cons???
or are the cons just myths???[/quote]
What is a myth is the belief that simply doing a “behind the neck” movement automatically means you will be injured. I believe this has to do with how far you bring the weight down in the movement. I know a large number of people with shoulder injuries. Many did BTN shoulder presses like they were the best movement on Earth. They would pop the weight up and then let come all of the way down until it touched their traps or bounced off their cervical vertebrae. I see that as a problem.
I do BTN presses (even though lately I use the Cybex plate loaded machine instead and like the movement better than free weights or the Smith machine) but I never let the weight fall that low. I bring the bar down to about the level of my ears and then press back up. I think limiting the range in this movement can help prevent injuries from it. My humurus is often parallel with the ground at the lowest part of the movement. The same goes for lat pull downs even though I am usually leaning forward a little more which means I can bring the weight down further safely without shoulder impingement. Your goal is to learn to feel the muscle working, not win a contest in all out flexibility with the weight.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
but I never let the weight fall that low. I bring the bar down to about the level of my ears and then press back up. .[/quote]
I tore my R. deltoid really bad in wrestling in high school. I used to not be able to do b.t.n presses but since i stared doing the same as Professor X i have had no probs and can do good weight safely i feel.
Good TEch is god
Snatch grip (collar to collar grip) behind the neck presses are a great way to strengthen the rotator cuffs. I’d suggest just starting with an empty bar, though.
Cool Tip for 5/6/05 by Eric Cressey:
“Behind the neck (BTN) pulldowns shorten the range of motion and reduce activation of the very musculature you’re trying to train. The in-front version offers a better training effect and much less injury risk. BTN pulldowns belong in the garbage can!”
[quote]edgecrusher wrote:
Cool Tip for 5/6/05 by Eric Cressey:
“Behind the neck (BTN) pulldowns shorten the range of motion and reduce activation of the very musculature you’re trying to train. The in-front version offers a better training effect and much less injury risk. BTN pulldowns belong in the garbage can!”
http://t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=624337[/quote]
That’s great that he has that opinion, however, I am sure many trainers and bodybuilders would disagree with that. Do any of you think for yourselves anymore or just hang on the word of what you read here? Do any of you go to other sources for information? Is this the only place you get weight training knowledge or opinions?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
edgecrusher wrote:
Cool Tip for 5/6/05 by Eric Cressey:
“Behind the neck (BTN) pulldowns shorten the range of motion and reduce activation of the very musculature you’re trying to train. The in-front version offers a better training effect and much less injury risk. BTN pulldowns belong in the garbage can!”
http://t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=624337
That’s great that he has that opinion, however, I am sure many trainers and bodybuilders would disagree with that. Do any of you think for yourselves anymore or just hang on the word of what you read here? Do any of you go to other sources for information? Is this the only place you get weight training knowledge or opinions? [/quote]
There are plenty of other sources that also diss behind the neck work, especially the presses. Here Eric is talking about the pulldowns only, and I think he’s right about ROM compared with the standard pulldown.
BTN is another source of training variety, but I think don’t go there unless you’ve maintained plenty of stretch at the limits of external rotation.
I do my pull downs in front of me, and I do my presses behind my neck.
Somtimes you just gotta figure out what works best for you ROM-wise. I don’t think there is a one-size-fits-all answer as to what is best.
Just my opinion.
I agree with what prof x said. I do remember reading an article that said when 2 lifters were hooked up to test how much muscle stimulation/contraction occured in pulldowns, pulldowns to the front had significantly greater activation of muscle in the lats and upper back.
I cover the rationale for my stance in “Debunking Exercise Myths: Part II.”
Another important factor that I opted not to mention is the type of acromion process. Those with hook-shaped acromion processes (roughly 1/3 of the population) account for 70% of all impingement cases.
Prof X,
I would suggest you read the whole article before bashing Eric. In fact, he actually states that BTN presses are fine for some individuals. The article is located here:
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=608547
In many cases BTN presses are fine, but for a lot of people they can cause more issues with the shoulder than anything else.
With all due respect, I would take Eric’s word over most anyday because he has the intellectual knowledge paired with real-world knowledge to boot. The guy has trained around old shoulder injuries for quite some time; I think he knows a thing or two about SMART training.
Stay strong
MR
[quote]Professor X wrote:
edgecrusher wrote:
Cool Tip for 5/6/05 by Eric Cressey:
“Behind the neck (BTN) pulldowns shorten the range of motion and reduce activation of the very musculature you’re trying to train. The in-front version offers a better training effect and much less injury risk. BTN pulldowns belong in the garbage can!”
http://t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=624337
That’s great that he has that opinion, however, I am sure many trainers and bodybuilders would disagree with that. Do any of you think for yourselves anymore or just hang on the word of what you read here? Do any of you go to other sources for information? Is this the only place you get weight training knowledge or opinions? [/quote]
I use a multi press machine with a bench, and do mine pretty much striaght to the eyes (Front) and push up from there. If I go behind it ALWAYS injures me.
Like RJ, I do my pulldowns to the front because I feel my lats working better. I don’t do barbell presses to the rear (behind neck)anymore because I had a tendency to bounce the weight to get it moving up and was noticing that this was hurting my shoulders. I stick with d-bell presses for the delts. These have never caused me an injury.
EMG studies, show Behind-The-Neck Pull downs are good for recruiting the traps and mid back, especialy the lower part of the traps. The behind-the-neck press is a good exercize, but is more risky. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be done, but it should be done more carefully. For example, the leg press is safer than the squat but that doesn’t mean you shouldnt squat, it just means you should squat safer.
I feel most people hurt their shoulders with behind-the-neck presses because they like to do intensification techinques like Supper Sets, Drop Sets, Forced Reps, Rest Pause, etcetra with this exercize which is more risky because you are doing the movement when you are fatigued and it’s harder to stay in the grove.
People also have this idea against full range of motion. If you look at just the leverages and use mathematics, you will see that the most weight the shoulder joint has to endure is when your arms are parallel to the ground. Using a full range of motion puts less load on the joint because your humerous will be below parallel in the bottom position. Also by just doing the top two thirds of the movement you will be more likely to get shoulder impigiment. You need to use the full rang of motion that your body was made to work through in order to avoid impigiment. Also, by doing a partial range of motion you are able to use more weight which makes the exercize harder on the shoulders and could lead to injuries. Like Louie Simons says, " I feel partial range of motion is dangerous. We at Westside only get peck tares and strains with board presses. You need a full range of motion for full develoment." Just like how squating below parallel recuits the Vastus Medialis maximally and thus leads to greater knee stability, you should train your shoulders with a full range of motion for maximum shoulder stablity.
[quote]Mike Robertson wrote:
Prof X,
I would suggest you read the whole article before bashing Eric.
[/quote]
I wasn’t bashing Eric. I was bashing how some posters seem to use one trainer’s response as the definitive answer for a question without even giving any personal opinion or experience. Eric didn’t write the original response that replied to. Do you understand now? We all have different levels of experience and training. Me pointing out that there seems to be extreme blind followership by a minority on this site is not bashing any particular trainer that may be quoted. Heart on your sleeve?
I think Prof X’s rule of thumb about only bringing the bar to ear level is a good one. That is how I do presses and even though I deal with chronic upper back problems I have never injured myself if I don’t go past that point.
I’m interested in how you rationalize this, as most leg presses put a ton of stress on the lumbar spine.
Stay strong
MR
[quote]daniel_lamon wrote:
For example, the leg press is safer than the squat but that doesn’t mean you shouldnt squat, it just means you should squat safer.
[/quote]
You could say the same for people that blindly follow your knowledge as well. I agree that people should read from multiple authors and make their own decisions, but we all know that’s not always going to happen.
Stay strong
MR
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Me pointing out that there seems to be extreme blind followership by a minority on this site is not bashing any particular trainer that may be quoted. Heart on your sleeve?[/quote]
Why do behind the neck presses in the first place? How are they superior to front presses? Let me guess, they hit the rear delts better.
[quote]Mike Robertson wrote:
You could say the same for people that blindly follow your knowledge as well. I agree that people should read from multiple authors and make their own decisions, but we all know that’s not always going to happen.
[/quote]
True, it won’t always happen, but I do think one of the main messages I usually add to most of what I write is to not get all of your info from only one source. It is not wrong to mention that or catch people when they act as if one source alone justifies ignoring all other stances, opinions, or experiences concerning a certain subject.
Knowledge doesn’t only come from scientific studies. I have lifted for about ten years straight and lift more weight than average and have not (furiously knocking on wood) sustained any shoulder injuries. One thing that helps avoid that is understanding signs of impending damage and knowing when to back off. That comes from overall anatomical knowledge and an in depth understanding of how YOUR OWN body works.
Considering the size I have gained in that time, I can justifiably use my own progress as a basis for what I believe. Is this not true? I mean, I could see if I had no background in anatomy or physiology…but I do, and so do many others through the sheer act of training for long periods of time.