I know I’ll catch a lot of crap over this for not being a “real” man.
practice all you want but make sure you can kill someone. if you hesitate that could be the difference between life and death but be sure of your target so you don’t have an accident. we’re talking home here and not a free fire zone.
I hear a lot of people talk about killing but until you do it it’s a whole nother thing. I’ve done it and I know I can do it again if necessary but I didn’t enjoy it. I still remember my first.
not trying to say don’t do it but you’ll always remember your first kill.
[quote]silverblood wrote:
I know I’ll catch a lot of crap over this for not being a “real” man.
practice all you want but make sure you can kill someone. if you hesitate that could be the difference between life and death but be sure of your target so you don’t have an accident. we’re talking home here and not a free fire zone.
I hear a lot of people talk about killing but until you do it it’s a whole nother thing. I’ve done it and I know I can do it again if necessary but I didn’t enjoy it. I still remember my first.
not trying to say don’t do it but you’ll always remember your first kill.[/quote]
Who in the world would give you cap for a very well reasoned post such as that? I cant ever figure out what they would give you crap about there.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]silverblood wrote:
I know I’ll catch a lot of crap over this for not being a “real” man.
practice all you want but make sure you can kill someone. if you hesitate that could be the difference between life and death but be sure of your target so you don’t have an accident. we’re talking home here and not a free fire zone.
I hear a lot of people talk about killing but until you do it it’s a whole nother thing. I’ve done it and I know I can do it again if necessary but I didn’t enjoy it. I still remember my first.
not trying to say don’t do it but you’ll always remember your first kill.[/quote]
Who in the world would give you cap for a very well reasoned post such as that? I cant ever figure out what they would give you crap about there.[/quote]
Yeah, it is my ever living wish I never have to use the firearm in that situation, nor anyone in my family.
SOrt of like a fire extinguisher. I hope I never have to use it. You know?
And your post shouldn’t catch any grief at all. There is zero wrong with what you said or how you feel.
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
[quote]furo wrote:
Sorry for the slight derail, but I, like lemony2j, am British and I have no experience with firearms outside a hunting situation and I don’t really have an opinion either way on American gun laws etc as I’m simply not informed on the topic.
Out of interest how many of you guys have been in a scenario where your firearm contributed to keeping you or your family safe (excluding experiences as an LEO/military/gangbanger)? Obviously I’m not expecting you to go into the details, but I’d just be interested to hear how many people have been in situations like the one Stu described, and in which the outcome was altered by having a firearm.
Thanks![/quote]
On the ranch (this is eastern NM), we have a huge number of illegals and drug runners traveling through to get around the customs stops on I-10 and the other big highways. I’ve had some tense situations on the ranch, where my ranch rifle (an AR-15) was pointed at “lost strangers” I told to get the fuck off my land (along with the ARs of my foreman and his helper). If we were not armed, I have no doubt we would have been shot ourselves and left for dead.
One time an Army buddy with PTSD who insisted on being my backup in a tense confrontation with the hotheaded brother of an ex-girlfriend (who was a suspended cop — the brother, that is). My buddy sat in a tree and was prepared to snipe the guy. This ended with no event.
2-3 times in El Paso and once in Houston during the livestock show when my hand went to my GLOCK or .357 in my jacket pocket and prepared to shoot “panhandlers” (read: likely mugger given the opportunity) who come up to you at gas stations — just at the ready, not fired. But they figured out quickly what I was doing and ran.[/quote]
Thanks for the reply man! Definitely sounds like they’ve gotten you out of some sticky situations.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]silverblood wrote:
I know I’ll catch a lot of crap over this for not being a “real” man.
practice all you want but make sure you can kill someone. if you hesitate that could be the difference between life and death but be sure of your target so you don’t have an accident. we’re talking home here and not a free fire zone.
I hear a lot of people talk about killing but until you do it it’s a whole nother thing. I’ve done it and I know I can do it again if necessary but I didn’t enjoy it. I still remember my first.
not trying to say don’t do it but you’ll always remember your first kill.[/quote]
Who in the world would give you cap for a very well reasoned post such as that? I cant ever figure out what they would give you crap about there.[/quote]
Yeah, it is my ever living wish I never have to use the firearm in that situation, nor anyone in my family.
SOrt of like a fire extinguisher. I hope I never have to use it. You know?
And your post shouldn’t catch any grief at all. There is zero wrong with what you said or how you feel. [/quote]
hey, this is T-Nation after all. they’ll always be someone that thinks what I wrote means I’m a pussy even though they’ve never killed anything more than a beer or some head lice.
[quote]theuofh wrote:
[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
Stu, take a low light tactical class. It is awesome and you’ll quickly find out that most advice you get from buddies and sources such as this will get you or loved ones killed quick ( sorry guys and gals) . At the end of this class you can make an informed decision as to what you want gear wise and you’ll have a much better skilset to execute a plan you come up with. [/quote]
This is a good idea, but I’d recommend a basic handgun course first. Don’t put the cart before the horse.
Most credible instructors will tell if you ever think there is an intruder in your home, to take cover in most likely your bedroom with your weapon and call the police. Then sit there and wait.
I’ve taken tactical courses, been in kill houses, and been taught search and room clearing techniques. They even do force on force drills with in the dark with flashlights and marking rounds. At each step, the instructors tell you don’t do a search unless you absolutely have to because it is the most dangerous thing you can do.
There’s a lot of technique involved, which must be practiced rigorously, and its not a skill maintainable by most people with lives and hobbies who do not involve specifically practicing search and clearing techniques. Popping off some rounds at the local range once a week on a stationary target with a stationary shooter does not count.[/quote]
very true. I have similar training and I sometimes take for granted that other do not.
guys, there’s always the “penetration” discussion. Fact is you want penetration; it’s what gets the job done. All rounds have the possibility of going where you don’t want them and as they say, theres a lawyer attached to every bullet that goes downrange. If you put all this theorizing bullshit aside, there are cold facts in one of these situations. There is one or more assailants in your house that want to do you harm then do unquestionable things to your wife or kids. The last thing on your mind is going to be how much the bullet, slug, shot etc is going to go thru the wall if you miss the target. Worry about putting lead on target. In a real situation you are going to be scared, high on adrenaline and your fine motor skils are going right out the window. You hands will turn into flippers so all those little levers on your “wonder guns” will fuck you. You want simple. You will be hard pressed to beat a pump action shotgun with 00 buck. Its a substantial weapon that is easy to hold onto, easy to fire and the recoil is managed due to the weapons mass. By the way, for you bird shot proponents, keep in mind that a typical shot shell expands at a rate of about 1" per yard the wad goes downrange. At most distances inside a home the pellets will still be inside the wadding and will hit an object much like a slug would. This is especially true if the weapon is a hunting variety and is choked. if y’all would like to read and learn about this stuff by tactical firearms instructors and spec ops / SEAL type for honest no bullshit advice check out ‘get off the x dot com’. tons of valuable info and no “bro science”. Hope this helps.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
But a .410 bird shot in a Judge also won’t go through a heavy biker jacket at six feet — which pretty much defeats the purpose.
[/quote]
Would it knock a 220lbs man coming up stairs on his ass?[/quote]
I wouldn’t use birdshot on anything but a bird.
[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
[quote]theuofh wrote:
[quote]StrengthDawg wrote:
Stu, take a low light tactical class. It is awesome and you’ll quickly find out that most advice you get from buddies and sources such as this will get you or loved ones killed quick ( sorry guys and gals) . At the end of this class you can make an informed decision as to what you want gear wise and you’ll have a much better skilset to execute a plan you come up with. [/quote]
This is a good idea, but I’d recommend a basic handgun course first. Don’t put the cart before the horse.
Most credible instructors will tell if you ever think there is an intruder in your home, to take cover in most likely your bedroom with your weapon and call the police. Then sit there and wait.
I’ve taken tactical courses, been in kill houses, and been taught search and room clearing techniques. They even do force on force drills with in the dark with flashlights and marking rounds. At each step, the instructors tell you don’t do a search unless you absolutely have to because it is the most dangerous thing you can do.
There’s a lot of technique involved, which must be practiced rigorously, and its not a skill maintainable by most people with lives and hobbies who do not involve specifically practicing search and clearing techniques. Popping off some rounds at the local range once a week on a stationary target with a stationary shooter does not count.[/quote]
very true. I have similar training and I sometimes take for granted that other do not.
guys, there’s always the “penetration” discussion. Fact is you want penetration; it’s what gets the job done. All rounds have the possibility of going where you don’t want them and as they say, theres a lawyer attached to every bullet that goes downrange. If you put all this theorizing bullshit aside, there are cold facts in one of these situations. There is one or more assailants in your house that want to do you harm then do unquestionable things to your wife or kids. The last thing on your mind is going to be how much the bullet, slug, shot etc is going to go thru the wall if you miss the target. Worry about putting lead on target. In a real situation you are going to be scared, high on adrenaline and your fine motor skils are going right out the window. You hands will turn into flippers so all those little levers on your “wonder guns” will fuck you. You want simple. You will be hard pressed to beat a pump action shotgun with 00 buck. Its a substantial weapon that is easy to hold onto, easy to fire and the recoil is managed due to the weapons mass. By the way, for you bird shot proponents, keep in mind that a typical shot shell expands at a rate of about 1" per yard the wad goes downrange. At most distances inside a home the pellets will still be inside the wadding and will hit an object much like a slug would. This is especially true if the weapon is a hunting variety and is choked. if y’all would like to read and learn about this stuff by tactical firearms instructors and spec ops / SEAL type for honest no bullshit advice check out ‘get off the x dot com’. tons of valuable info and no “bro science”. Hope this helps. [/quote]
Agree… The first rule in armed confrontation is avoid if you can. If you shoot someone, even if you are justified by all matters of law, your life is still going to be hell for a while. It’s a homicide until ruled differently. You have to think differently when you carry deadly force. Staying out of confrontation is your number one priority, ego be damned. It doesn’t matter if you are in the right.
I really have my guns as a hobby. I love everything about them. My intent to use them on anything other than targets is nill. It’s only when I have no other choice, period. But I am glad I have that choice.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
But a .410 bird shot in a Judge also won’t go through a heavy biker jacket at six feet — which pretty much defeats the purpose.
[/quote]
Would it knock a 220lbs man coming up stairs on his ass?[/quote]
I wouldn’t use birdshot on anything but a bird. [/quote]
I have a 12g in NYC and one of the rare carry permits for citizens in NYC — for a specific 5 shot .38, because that’s what the lawyer I hired (and mind you, I am a lawyer) to walk the paperwork through told me was the only possible handgun I could for which I could hope to get a carry permit.
People who are not worried about over-penetration clearly have not lived in a cracker-box apartment in NYC where they give you a list of approved ammo. I have “hammered 1 buck” according to the package — the shot is not round and designed to spread and not go far.
In AZ, I carry a .40 Glock and we have all sorts of stuff at home.
In Israel, we have 2 9mms (Beretta) and 2 M4s (aka modern M16, with burst auto), both very regulated and the M4s being government property.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
But a .410 bird shot in a Judge also won’t go through a heavy biker jacket at six feet — which pretty much defeats the purpose.
[/quote]
Would it knock a 220lbs man coming up stairs on his ass?[/quote]
I wouldn’t use birdshot on anything but a bird. [/quote]
I have a 12g in NYC and one of the rare carry permits for citizens in NYC — for a specific 5 shot .38, because that’s what the lawyer I hired (and mind you, I am a lawyer) to walk the paperwork through told me was the only possible handgun I could for which I could hope to get a carry permit.
People who are not worried about over-penetration clearly have not lived in a cracker-box apartment in NYC where they give you a list of approved ammo. I have “hammered 1 buck” according to the package — the shot is not round and designed to spread and not go far.
In AZ, I carry a .40 Glock and we have all sorts of stuff at home.
In Israel, we have 2 9mms (Beretta) and 2 M4s (aka modern M16, with burst auto), both very regulated and the M4s being government property.[/quote]
How do you like the Beretta’s? When I was first shopping for a handgun, everyone steered me away from them which was confusing to me because as someone who had spent a lot of time with long guns, Beretta was a name synonymous with quality.
[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
But a .410 bird shot in a Judge also won’t go through a heavy biker jacket at six feet — which pretty much defeats the purpose.
[/quote]
Would it knock a 220lbs man coming up stairs on his ass?[/quote]
I wouldn’t use birdshot on anything but a bird. [/quote]
I have a 12g in NYC and one of the rare carry permits for citizens in NYC — for a specific 5 shot .38, because that’s what the lawyer I hired (and mind you, I am a lawyer) to walk the paperwork through told me was the only possible handgun I could for which I could hope to get a carry permit.
People who are not worried about over-penetration clearly have not lived in a cracker-box apartment in NYC where they give you a list of approved ammo. I have “hammered 1 buck” according to the package — the shot is not round and designed to spread and not go far.
In AZ, I carry a .40 Glock and we have all sorts of stuff at home.
In Israel, we have 2 9mms (Beretta) and 2 M4s (aka modern M16, with burst auto), both very regulated and the M4s being government property.[/quote]
How do you like the Beretta’s? When I was first shopping for a handgun, everyone steered me away from them which was confusing to me because as someone who had spent a lot of time with long guns, Beretta was a name synonymous with quality.[/quote]
It’s a quality weapon, but I had no choice in Israel, in that 9mm Berretta is what I could carry and get. I think they get a bad rap because (as I learned in officer sidearm training many years ago) an attacker can grab the slide and literally take the pistol apart if they know what they are doing (and you don’t).
FWIW, Mrs. Jewbacca carries a Beretta Cheetah (a 14 shot .380) in the hospital where she works.
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I think they get a bad rap because (as I learned in officer sidearm training many years ago) an attacker can grab the slide and literally take the pistol apart[/quote]
That goes for practically any auto pistol, particularly the Glocks and any pistol with a “takedown lever”, but even the gold old 1911 .45. For that matter, even a revolver can be rendered momentarily inoperable by a smart, fast attacker who grabs the cylinder and blocks the hammer. Incredibly unlikely that someone would be able to move fast enough to do this, of course.
I just wanna say thanks again for everyone chiming in here. I don’t have much to offer beyond my initial questions, but I am taking notes. Last night I ran a bunch of the suggestions past my very gun-knowledgeable buddy (and shooting instructor) and his answer was “Oh I have one of those” to pretty much every one I mentioned -lol.
S
as I’ve said before if you wanna see what a round will do buy a hog from a butcher, hang it up and shoot it. if you want, put a leather jacket on it and shoot. you should also put a life size picture of a face on it and on your range targets so you’ll get used to seeing a person as you fire. you’ll see the entrance wound and then the damage done by your round. put a piece of tape over the entrance and number it so you can keep track of the different ammo you try.
remember that in most homes a shooting will probably occur within 15’. if you have a big open house measure a room or hallway and use that as your distance.
as for birdshot, at 15’ it is still a fairly solid mass that will kill someone as the annual number of fatal hunting accidents prove.
you don’t need the most powerful thing out there. if you are not comfortable with the recoil you will not be as accurate. you will also not line up as fast for your next shot. no matter how good you think you are there is always the chance that you’ll need it.
I prefer the .45ACP but I have fairly large hands and have been shooting since I’ve been big enough to hold a gun. you can find them with 6 rd capacity that will fit smaller hands if this is what you’re looking for. it doesn’t take a lot of practice to change clips quickly if you feel the need to have more rds available.
.
I like the Fiocchi 45XTP 230gr hollow point and Federal Premium Hydra-Shok 230gr jacketed hollow point for home use but that’s just me.
a gun is a very personal preference. some prefer semi-auto and some prefer revolvers. find a shop with a range that allows you to rent different guns to try. if you find some that you feel comfortable with try different ammo as the recoil, and if you’re shooting at longer distances the pattern, will vary.
as for women they should go to a gun range that has a ladies night. the one’s around here have certified instructors, male and female, that are really great. I say this as no one wants to re-experience the joys of how it was when someone you know tried to teach you how to drive! these classes do not have the pressure of someone yelling “WTF!!! aren’t you listening to me!!! why am I even trying!!!”
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I just wanna say thanks again for everyone chiming in here. I don’t have much to offer beyond my initial questions, but I am taking notes. Last night I ran a bunch of the suggestions past my very gun-knowledgeable buddy (and shooting instructor) and his answer was “Oh I have one of those” to pretty much every one I mentioned -lol.
S[/quote]
There is your answer, spend 20k plus on guns and ammo.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]The Mighty Stu wrote:
I just wanna say thanks again for everyone chiming in here. I don’t have much to offer beyond my initial questions, but I am taking notes. Last night I ran a bunch of the suggestions past my very gun-knowledgeable buddy (and shooting instructor) and his answer was “Oh I have one of those” to pretty much every one I mentioned -lol.
S[/quote]
There is your answer, spend 20k plus on guns and ammo. [/quote]
In NYC that will be for the paperwork alone.
[quote]Varqanir wrote:
[quote]Jewbacca wrote:
I think they get a bad rap because (as I learned in officer sidearm training many years ago) an attacker can grab the slide and literally take the pistol apart[/quote]
That goes for practically any auto pistol, particularly the Glocks and any pistol with a “takedown lever”, but even the gold old 1911 .45. For that matter, even a revolver can be rendered momentarily inoperable by a smart, fast attacker who grabs the cylinder and blocks the hammer. Incredibly unlikely that someone would be able to move fast enough to do this, of course. [/quote]
Like you wrote,not only would this be a very unlikely scenario; I’ll add that if one draws a weapons in defense of his life, or others lives and allows the aggressor to get that close,to put hands on the weapon that would be an egregious failure.
I do not own a gun and my fiance refuses to live in a house with one (for now), so this comment comes from reading this thread and the research I did a few years ago when I tried to purchase one (never did, because I had a pending case at the time that I forgot about).
It seems like the main goal is to stop an intruder. That can come in the form of deterrence, as mentioned, and power in the case they are a determined intruder. That being said, to me it seems like you should get a small/“weak” handgun for the ability to shoot someone without killing them or killing someone else if you miss. It’s not like they’re going to say “oh, it’s only a .22,” and come charging at you. They will more likely say, “oh shit, wrong apartment” and try and get out of there.
Perhaps it’s all the stupid crap I’ve done in the past, but, like many saying they do not ever wish to use their gun in defense, I would never want to actually kill someone if I did have to use it just because it was some punk kid that wanted to steal my laptop or was climbing the fire escape to paint the rooftop and I panicked.
Determined intruders are out there, though, and often not alone. You can assess this likelihood and balance it with your other concerns on whether or not you need protection in this situation. In this case, it sounds like the appropriate shotgun (enough power, but unlikely to kill the neighbors) is warranted. On top of all this, some sort of safe to store the guns when you aren’t at home because if someone breaks in then, you don’t want to have 2 more guns floating out there in the streets.
[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
I do not own a gun and my fiance refuses to live in a house with one (for now), so this comment comes from reading this thread and the research I did a few years ago when I tried to purchase one (never did, because I had a pending case at the time that I forgot about).
It seems like the main goal is to stop an intruder. That can come in the form of deterrence, as mentioned, and power in the case they are a determined intruder. That being said, to me it seems like you should get a small/“weak” handgun for the ability to shoot someone without killing them or killing someone else if you miss. It’s not like they’re going to say “oh, it’s only a .22,” and come charging at you. They will more likely say, “oh shit, wrong apartment” and try and get out of there.
Perhaps it’s all the stupid crap I’ve done in the past, but, like many saying they do not ever wish to use their gun in defense, I would never want to actually kill someone if I did have to use it just because it was some punk kid that wanted to steal my laptop or was climbing the fire escape to paint the rooftop and I panicked.
Determined intruders are out there, though, and often not alone. You can assess this likelihood and balance it with your other concerns on whether or not you need protection in this situation. In this case, it sounds like the appropriate shotgun (enough power, but unlikely to kill the neighbors) is warranted. On top of all this, some sort of safe to store the guns when you aren’t at home because if someone breaks in then, you don’t want to have 2 more guns floating out there in the streets.[/quote]
If I have come to the point in the situation where I feel like I need to pull the trigger, I have come to the point where I have decided it is time to end the other persons life to protect my own safety or someone I love. I would never shoot someone that I did not intend to incapacitate, .22 doesn’t do that as well unless you kill them, much the same as I would never point a gun that I was not prepared to pull the trigger on. Not wanting to kill someone that you have decided is an imminent threat is a sure fire way to get you hurt, possibly by your own gun.
[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
I do not own a gun and my fiance refuses to live in a house with one (for now),[/quote]
I feel for you. Get her out on a range or take her shooting somewhere. She’s prolly just scared of them. Teach her that guns can be fun. Shoot some water jugs, whatever.Teach her that they are used to protect assets, namely YOU or loved ones. Teach her that YOU are the weapon and guns, knives, baseball bats etc are the TOOL.
Absolutely. Yell out “I’ve called the cops”, GET OUT!!!" whatever. If they still come in they intend to do you harm. In that scenario, do you want to rely on a very small cartridge? Probably not.
You are well within your right to stop an intruder or NOT. YOU control your finger. GET SOME TRAINING. If you choose to stand there and let them take all your stuff, then that’s your choice. Take a pic of them and give to the cops. I can assure you that you can get another laptop. Look, no one wants to kill someone. Besides the legal fees alone would bury most of us. Ultimately you have to decide if your life is in danger and if you are willing to defend it. There should be no question but that’s your decision to make.
Here are the facts. Look it up with FBI ballistics testing. Google “5 layer denim” test.
All modern handgun ammo in calibers commonly accepted as “personal defense” calibers basically performs the same. they penetrate from 12-15"ish. they all expand to about 1". They all produce in the ballpark of 300-500 ft/lb of kinetic energy. According to FBI statistics, one has an 80% chance of surviving multiple handgun wounds.
Contrarily to that RIFLE and shotguns are vastly more powerful. A shotgun is in all likeliness the most powerful thing us civilians can shoulder. For example, grandads old 20 gage shotgun, when shooting a slug, is roughly TWICE as powerful as a .44 magnum handgun! Yeah the handgun that Dirty harry popularized. The one that allegedly will vaporize the perp and make them blow up into a shower of sparks. A ‘little ol’ .223 aka AR 15 ammo will produce about 1400 ft/lb, an Ak round, 1500 and a .308 around 2800. FBI stats show that one has an 80% chance of DYING from a SINGLE rifle round.
Take away point is that all handguns rounds SUCK at “stopping” a real threat. They poke holes and make fuckers bleed. SHOT PLACEMENT is critical. That may take one round or it may take 18…
Another fun fact is that on average well trained law enforcement missed on average of 12 out of 15 rounds when shooting under duress. How many rounds do you think the average joe will need to stop one or more aggressors? Can you do that with your so called “fail proof” revolver with only 6 rounds? again… GET TRAINING of you are serious about this stuff. You will learn just how dumb a lot of this “bro science” that goes around is and how it will get you dead quick. Hope this helps, and give everyone something to think about.