Beginner's Handgun for Home Protection?

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101

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
but 2 legged predators? . . . a .357 is superior, both as a distance weapon and penetration — plus, you typically get 2 more rounds in a .357 than a judge.[/quote]

I thought those were the reasons for the Judge recommendation though, for shooting short distances indoors in a multifamily living environment, while minimizing the risk of penetration into the neighbors’ living quarters.

It sounds like .357 would be very bad in that environment. I don’t know; I’m just trying to make sense of what’s written.

102

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Yeah, I am thinking the 12 or 20 gauge would be a good home defense option for someone unfamiliar with guns. A Taurus Judge loaded with buckshot would be my next choice. .38 special revolver would be 3rd followed by a 9mm auto. This is family use gun. Which my wife shoots a 1911 better than she shoots anything else so you never really know.[/quote]

I strongly disagree with those who recommend the Taurus Judge.

It’s a fine pistol, if you are shooting snakes or the like things that would be hard to hit with a pistol and maybe want to load in a couple .45 long colt to discourage a bear or the like, but 2 legged predators? . . . a .357 is superior, both as a distance weapon and penetration — plus, you typically get 2 more rounds in a .357 than a judge.

Now, would I want to get hit in the face with bird shot or a slug from a Taurus judge? No, not particularly. But I’d probably live from even a close range shot to the chest of .410 of anything but 00 buck or a slug from such a short barrel.

Nor would I want to be hit with a .45 long colt from the Judge. But, if I was going to carry a .45 long colt, I’d carry a .45 long colt with a almost eight inch barrel like my top break Schofield. I can make a head shot at 50 yards with that.

A .357, in contrast to the Judge, would most likely be fatal, and it’s more accurate than the judge.

[/quote]

I dunno, the recoil in the ones I have shot has been very manageable and a few more pellets when shooting 00 buck give a little better chance for an inexperienced shooter in an intense situation. The buckshot capability is my lone reason for the beginners recommendation.

103

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
but 2 legged predators? . . . a .357 is superior, both as a distance weapon and penetration — plus, you typically get 2 more rounds in a .357 than a judge.[/quote]

I thought those were the reasons for the Judge recommendation though, for shooting short distances indoors in a multifamily living environment, while minimizing the risk of penetration into the neighbors’ living quarters.

It sounds like .357 would be very bad in that environment. I don’t know; I’m just trying to make sense of what’s written.[/quote]

Penetration is one of the reasons I like a big slow .45 to a hot 9mm. I do not however like the .45 in anything but the 1911’s for smaller handed (female) shooters. I am not really a fan of the magnums for this reason. I don’t really want a bullet that will pass thru an assailant and two walls.

104

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
but 2 legged predators? . . . a .357 is superior, both as a distance weapon and penetration — plus, you typically get 2 more rounds in a .357 than a judge.[/quote]

I thought those were the reasons for the Judge recommendation though, for shooting short distances indoors in a multifamily living environment, while minimizing the risk of penetration into the neighbors’ living quarters.

It sounds like .357 would be very bad in that environment. I don’t know; I’m just trying to make sense of what’s written.[/quote]

Penetration is one of the reasons I like a big slow .45 to a hot 9mm. I do not however like the .45 in anything but the 1911’s for smaller handed (female) shooters. I am not really a fan of the magnums for this reason. I don’t really want a bullet that will pass thru an assailant and two walls. [/quote]
Agreed.

This is why I mentioned a .45 and recommend a hollow point, 185 grain on the front page.

Only reason I wouldn’t recommend 165 is greater knock down power in the event a fatal shot isn’t made.

105

[quote]PowWowNow wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
but 2 legged predators? . . . a .357 is superior, both as a distance weapon and penetration — plus, you typically get 2 more rounds in a .357 than a judge.[/quote]

I thought those were the reasons for the Judge recommendation though, for shooting short distances indoors in a multifamily living environment, while minimizing the risk of penetration into the neighbors’ living quarters.

It sounds like .357 would be very bad in that environment. I don’t know; I’m just trying to make sense of what’s written.[/quote]

Penetration is one of the reasons I like a big slow .45 to a hot 9mm. I do not however like the .45 in anything but the 1911’s for smaller handed (female) shooters. I am not really a fan of the magnums for this reason. I don’t really want a bullet that will pass thru an assailant and two walls. [/quote]
Agreed.

This is why I mentioned a .45 and recommend a hollow point, 185 grain on the front page.

Only reason I wouldn’t recommend 165 is greater knock down power in the event a fatal shot isn’t made. [/quote]

I shoot mostly 230gr hollow points. Practice with 230gr ball due to cost and point of aim is much more similar with equivalent weight bullets.

106

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
but 2 legged predators? . . . a .357 is superior, both as a distance weapon and penetration — plus, you typically get 2 more rounds in a .357 than a judge.[/quote]

I thought those were the reasons for the Judge recommendation though, for shooting short distances indoors in a multifamily living environment, while minimizing the risk of penetration into the neighbors’ living quarters.

It sounds like .357 would be very bad in that environment. I don’t know; I’m just trying to make sense of what’s written.[/quote]

It’s a balance, you’re right.

.410 bird shot in a Judge would not go through a wall. In fact, it won’t go through 3/4 drywall, I bet, at 6-8 feet. But a .410 bird shot in a Judge also won’t go through a heavy biker jacket at six feet — which pretty much defeats the purpose.

A .410 slug 00 Buck or a .45 Long Colt (not .45ACP — Judge is Long Colt) will go through a jacket, but is probably just as likely to go through a wall as a .357. In fact, perhaps more likely, since it won’t deform like a hollow point.

A .357 hollow point PROBABLY won’t go through two layers of drywall at a distance, assuming a 3-4 inch hollow space — because it will deform before going through the next layer. Note I said PROBABLY. I wouldn’t bet my life on it.

In short, I am saying for a usable round (00 buck, slug), you might as well use the .357 and get two more shots — or load it down to .38 and you are just that much less likely to overpenetrate.

107

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:
Yeah, I am thinking the 12 or 20 gauge would be a good home defense option for someone unfamiliar with guns. A Taurus Judge loaded with buckshot would be my next choice. .38 special revolver would be 3rd followed by a 9mm auto. This is family use gun. Which my wife shoots a 1911 better than she shoots anything else so you never really know.[/quote]

I strongly disagree with those who recommend the Taurus Judge.

It’s a fine pistol, if you are shooting snakes or the like things that would be hard to hit with a pistol and maybe want to load in a couple .45 long colt to discourage a bear or the like, but 2 legged predators? . . . a .357 is superior, both as a distance weapon and penetration — plus, you typically get 2 more rounds in a .357 than a judge.

Now, would I want to get hit in the face with bird shot or a slug from a Taurus judge? No, not particularly. But I’d probably live from even a close range shot to the chest of .410 of anything but 00 buck or a slug from such a short barrel.

Nor would I want to be hit with a .45 long colt from the Judge. But, if I was going to carry a .45 long colt, I’d carry a .45 long colt with a almost eight inch barrel like my top break Schofield. I can make a head shot at 50 yards with that.

A .357, in contrast to the Judge, would most likely be fatal, and it’s more accurate than the judge.

[/quote]

I dunno, the recoil in the ones I have shot has been very manageable and a few more pellets when shooting 00 buck give a little better chance for an inexperienced shooter in an intense situation. The buckshot capability is my lone reason for the beginners recommendation.[/quote]

If it is that green a shooter, I really, really would go for the 20 guage shotgun with bird load. At 6-10 feet, the load will stay close with a longish barrel, so it will penetrate a bad guy — yet most likely get stuck in a wall.

109

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]PowWowNow wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]LoRez wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
but 2 legged predators? . . . a .357 is superior, both as a distance weapon and penetration — plus, you typically get 2 more rounds in a .357 than a judge.[/quote]

I thought those were the reasons for the Judge recommendation though, for shooting short distances indoors in a multifamily living environment, while minimizing the risk of penetration into the neighbors’ living quarters.

It sounds like .357 would be very bad in that environment. I don’t know; I’m just trying to make sense of what’s written.[/quote]

Penetration is one of the reasons I like a big slow .45 to a hot 9mm. I do not however like the .45 in anything but the 1911’s for smaller handed (female) shooters. I am not really a fan of the magnums for this reason. I don’t really want a bullet that will pass thru an assailant and two walls. [/quote]
Agreed.

This is why I mentioned a .45 and recommend a hollow point, 185 grain on the front page.

Only reason I wouldn’t recommend 165 is greater knock down power in the event a fatal shot isn’t made. [/quote]

I shoot mostly 230gr hollow points. Practice with 230gr ball due to cost and point of aim is much more similar with equivalent weight bullets.[/quote]
Yeah, not a bad idea.

I still like a laser though, especially if the idea is to shoot from a fixed spot to a fixed spot. Measure it out, sight in a 185 grain and done.

Either way, I completely agree with a big, slow bullet.

110

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

Penetration is one of the reasons I like a big slow .45 to a hot 9mm.

[/quote]

Seems like everyone has to play the sexual innuendo game.

That’s a good thing.
[/quote]

Completely accidental. If we are talking the other, I’ll penetrate the hot 9 over the big slow 4.5 every time.

111

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

Penetration is one of the reasons I like a big slow .45 to a hot 9mm.

[/quote]

Seems like everyone has to play the sexual innuendo game.

That’s a good thing.
[/quote]

Completely accidental. If we are talking the other, I’ll penetrate the hot 9 over the big slow 4.5 every time.[/quote]
Hilarious.

112

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
But a .410 bird shot in a Judge also won’t go through a heavy biker jacket at six feet — which pretty much defeats the purpose.

[/quote]

Would it knock a 220lbs man coming up stairs on his ass?

113

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
But a .410 bird shot in a Judge also won’t go through a heavy biker jacket at six feet — which pretty much defeats the purpose.

[/quote]

Would it knock a 220lbs man coming up stairs on his ass?[/quote]

If you happened to shoot him in the face, sure.

Think about the physics. A bullet hits no harder that the recoil (for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction).

I’ve seen plenty of people get shot. Heck, I’ve been shot. You don’t jump through the air like in Hollywood.

114

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
But a .410 bird shot in a Judge also won’t go through a heavy biker jacket at six feet — which pretty much defeats the purpose.

[/quote]

Would it knock a 220lbs man coming up stairs on his ass?[/quote]

We had a meth deal murder here a few years ago where the victim was killed by a load of .410 bird shot to the face. And I would disagree with .410 00buck out penetrating very far at all. It loses so much energy after bouncing around in that short barrel and in flight that it just does not go thru much at all.

115

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
A 20 gauge shotgun would be my choice for an apartment dweller in New York.

The permitting should be easier for a long gun and a 20 gauge is easily handled by a woman compared to a 12.

The shells (buck shot) can penetrate through a wall but not nearly as easy as a bullet. The knock down force would be the equivalent of 6-10 9mm shots from a handgun.

Beretta is my favorite shotgun, bar none.

If you insist on a handgun, NYC has that new magazine limit of 7 which removes most semi autos that are decent.

My handgun recommendation is a .357 magnum revolver with a longish barrel because the longer barrel will help subsequent shot placement.

Revolvers are much less likely to malfunction in the hands of an amateur, as well.

Taurus makes a nice 7 shot .357.

The king of all .357s is the Colt Python ( as seen on the Walking Dead). They are no longer made, but you can still find them new.

Also if the .357 is too much pistol, you can load it with .38 rounds. Because the .357 is a more robust pistol than the .38, you will experience much less felt recoil.
[/quote]

I agree with all of this but one caveat about shotguns: they still are not as simple to use, especially for a beginner, in high stress situations as a double action revolver. They just aren’t.

For instance, a few nights ago I was awakened by my dog barking; it is very rare for him to bark. If he (pit bull) does something had definitely alarmed him. Chances are very high it was just deer in the yard or turkeys on the porch or such. I was tempted to blow it off and go back to sleep. Instead I forced myself to do my due diligence.

Grabbed my Mossberg 12 ga. and toured the house in the dark. Then went outdoors in the dark and went to rack the slide (I normally keep an empty chamber) both for the sound effect warning to a potential intruder and of course, to load the chamber. Problem was the cocking indicator (action release) had not been released like normal. Had I been in an immediate life or death situation the seconds that it took for me to realize what had happened could have proved fatal.[/quote]

The only thing I don’t necessarily agree with is making noise with your firearm to scare an intruder. If they are armed, you just gave away your position and it could spook them into rapid fire in your general direction. [/quote]

I did this after I had cleared the house, turned the outdoor floodlights on and gone outside. I was ready to go back to bed. I racked the slide THEN.
[/quote]

Exactly why you keep one in the chamber. Or rack the slide before you go outside at least. Another reason is you may not always be home when an intruder enters, and your loved ones may need to use it to defend themselves. The last thing I would want is my gf fumbling around with my shtgun while being attacked. She know all she has to do is take it off safe, point and shoot.

116

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
But a .410 bird shot in a Judge also won’t go through a heavy biker jacket at six feet — which pretty much defeats the purpose.

[/quote]

Would it knock a 220lbs man coming up stairs on his ass?[/quote]

If you happened to shoot him in the face, sure.

Think about the physics. A bullet hits no harder that the recoil (for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction).

I’ve seen plenty of people get shot. Heck, I’ve been shot. You don’t jump through the air like in Hollywood. [/quote]

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
But a .410 bird shot in a Judge also won’t go through a heavy biker jacket at six feet — which pretty much defeats the purpose.

[/quote]

Would it knock a 220lbs man coming up stairs on his ass?[/quote]

We had a meth deal murder here a few years ago where the victim was killed by a load of .410 bird shot to the face. And I would disagree with .410 00buck out penetrating very far at all. It loses so much energy after bouncing around in that short barrel and in flight that it just does not go thru much at all. [/quote]

So… based on this, the judge seems like a poor substitute for a 12 gauge.

I’m saying a $200 Mossberg and go was the original plan. With a revolver bedside as well.

Let’s say someone has horsehair plaster walls, how far is the 12 gauge going to penetrate?

Here is the deal, I want my wife or son to only have to fire one round and be relatively safe. But I don’t want a mistake to fly through the wall and kill my baby, you know what I mean?

117

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
But a .410 bird shot in a Judge also won’t go through a heavy biker jacket at six feet — which pretty much defeats the purpose.

[/quote]

Would it knock a 220lbs man coming up stairs on his ass?[/quote]

If you happened to shoot him in the face, sure.

Think about the physics. A bullet hits no harder that the recoil (for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction).

I’ve seen plenty of people get shot. Heck, I’ve been shot. You don’t jump through the air like in Hollywood. [/quote]

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:
But a .410 bird shot in a Judge also won’t go through a heavy biker jacket at six feet — which pretty much defeats the purpose.

[/quote]

Would it knock a 220lbs man coming up stairs on his ass?[/quote]

We had a meth deal murder here a few years ago where the victim was killed by a load of .410 bird shot to the face. And I would disagree with .410 00buck out penetrating very far at all. It loses so much energy after bouncing around in that short barrel and in flight that it just does not go thru much at all. [/quote]

So… based on this, the judge seems like a poor substitute for a 12 gauge.

I’m saying a $200 Mossberg and go was the original plan. With a revolver bedside as well.

Let’s say someone has horsehair plaster walls, how far is the 12 gauge going to penetrate?

Here is the deal, I want my wife or son to only have to fire one round and be relatively safe. But I don’t want a mistake to fly through the wall and kill my baby, you know what I mean?[/quote]

Yeah, the only advantage a judge has to a short 12 is concealability. A short 12 is the ultimate in home defense if you have somewhere to safely leave it and train your kids that its not a toy. Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 tacticals would be my choice, or the Benelli M4 if budget allowed. Kel Tec makes a really cool looking 12 pump but I have never shot it. If you put a load of number 4’s (especially those cut for Turkey hunting) from a xtra full choke it will tear up anything within 15 yards.

118

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

So… based on this, the judge seems like a poor substitute for a 12 gauge.

Let’s say someone has horsehair plaster walls, how far is the 12 gauge going to penetrate?

[/quote]

Which is one of the reasons I favor a 20 guage — plenty of knock down, less penetration, still deadly at close/mid range, even with bird shot.

Now, can a 20 with bird shot still penetrate a wall? Yes. All a factor of angle, distance, etc. And sometimes the wad does not seperate and the shot stays together.

So you just always need to know your backstop.

And you can do things like harden a room. Which could be as complicated as adding a 3/4 plywood underlayment under the sheet rock and filling the internal space with scrap sheet rock.

Or as simple as moving a large wooden piece of furniture.

119

[quote]jbpick86 wrote:

A short 12 is the ultimate in home defense if you have somewhere to safely leave it and train your kids that its not a toy. .[/quote]

Not worried about the boy, he has shot one a couple times, and I plan on making him run 30-50 rounds through it at the range every once in awhile so he remembers the soreness, lol. He isn’t the type to fool around with something that hurts like that.

My daughter won’t be strong enough to rack it until she is old enough to understand.

120

[quote]thethirdruffian wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

So… based on this, the judge seems like a poor substitute for a 12 gauge.

Let’s say someone has horsehair plaster walls, how far is the 12 gauge going to penetrate?

[/quote]

Which is one of the reasons I favor a 20 guage — plenty of knock down, less penetration, still deadly at close/mid range, even with bird shot.

Now, can a 20 with bird shot still penetrate a wall? Yes. All a factor of angle, distance, etc. And sometimes the wad does not seperate and the shot stays together.

So you just always need to know your backstop.

And you can do things like harden a room. Which could be as complicated as adding a 3/4 plywood underlayment under the sheet rock and filling the internal space with scrap sheet rock.

Or as simple as moving a large wooden piece of furniture.[/quote]

Just based on home layout, it would be unlikely that a shot from my son or wife would be towards the baby’s room. However the intruder is another story, but really that is why he or she is there anyway, to harm us, so…