Be A Teacher Be a Fool

Off Topic
81

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:

That is some messed up stuff. How do restaraunt workers, janitors, garbagemen etc. live in your area?

I suspect it is not just teachers having a hard time making ends meet there.[/quote]

you’re absolutely right. The seperation in class is pretty big here. I grew up here (which is why I want to stay here) and I’ve seen the nice areas stay nice while the shitty areas get worse.

The alternative that some in the professions you mentioned have chosen is to live as far as 80 miles away, outside the valley. Shit, i know a lot of people at the high end of the spectrum who do the same thing. They have 2 hour commutes to work in traffic everyday both ways.

I think the only thing that’s allowed it to stay somewhat even is that rent is cheaper (but not cheap). you can find 1 bedroom apt’s for 900-1000 a month, or you see a lot of houses rented out and there’ll be 6 adults in a house (3-4 bedrooms…).

Also, if any of those people came from families who owned property here before the boom, they’ve made a grip on that appreciation. For the sake of comparison, my folks bought their house in 1970 for 60k (which was a lot of money back then). Their neighbor’s house (which is one less bedroom and bath, maybe 800 sq feet smaller, but they have a pool and my folks don’t) just sold for 1.79 mil. Granted the area they live in ended up being one of the nicest around, but the house that just sold was 4 bedrooms 2.5 bath, nothing overly extravagent. It had never been remodeled and was built in 1969.

And before anyone gets any ideas in their heads, inheritance tax is going to going to take a big chunk of that shit. But that’s a different topic. :slight_smile:

82

Ah, education sucks because children, and they are all children, think its just a place to good around and mind them during the day. people say education is important but parents dont inforce the notion.

Japanese school kids do very well, and i dont think its got to do with how well the teachers are paid. its simply that the children are conditioned to do well in school. When i was in school there was a handfull that wanted to learn and the rest just wanted to fuck around and cruise.

83

[quote]Dustinw wrote:
bigrobbie wrote:
I think this discussion depends largely on where you live.

Good point–the cost of living in city like New York or LA cannot be compare to some small town. I live in Ontario, Canada so my comments are in relation to here.

High School Teachers with technology and science degrees are paid the same as teachers with Arts Degrees, but local industry does not pay the same. Someone with a math or computer degree makes 50K CAN$ to start around here with lots of room to grow but teachers make about 35K to start with a long time before the would ever be in the 50K range (and a cap at around 65K). I work in the IT department and there are a bunch of qualified Math and Computer teachers who are my co-workers … all of them gave it up because a sense of purpose and summers off didn’t cut it compared to less stress and much higher wages. California pays it teachers better and has much more reasonable teacher student ratios because of this large number of Ontario teachers are relocating to California (but probably not to the Bay area, cause damn living there is expensive).

… having said that I think fixing some of wage disparity isn’t enough to fix the education problems (at least here). I think having better student teacher ratios is going to do more to improve the situation. The best teacher in the world isn’t still being set up to fail with 35+ hormone raging teenagers packed into a classroom sized to hold 22, especially when you through in the fact that the teachers are dealing with a high percentage of kids with ADD, behaviour problems, coming from broken homes, etc. In the past students with those types of problems ended dropping out or getting kicked out, but now they stay in the system putting more burdon on the teachers.

Dustin.

[/quote]

Our classrooms are all 35-40 students. What’s really f-ed up is that teachers here can’t discipline students, and since in most families both parents are working, they aren’t around to do it either. So the teachers have to put up with bratty-ass kids.

I don’t know if this happens anywhere else, but here a school gets funding based on enrollment. So if a teacher scolds a kid, and the parents don’t like it, then they’ll threaten to move their kid to another school. So nobody gets detention anymore. In the end, our teachers are underpaid and get shat on by rude little runts, and have to put up with it.

84

We start at 40,500 here with a BA, or 45,500 with a MA. Works for me…especially when I’m only working 9months. I’d take summer vacation over another 100k.

85

i have a suggestion. lets take the money jack off athletes make, and donate it to teachers. who cares if you can run fast, and catch a ball, or slam dunk. fuck off. give the money to everybody else. pro atletes should be pro because they love to play a game. thats what they do, PLAY. it’s the most retarded shit i have ever seen. the world should be ashamed of itself. 80 million dollars to run up and down a field, for what? so i can go yea when my team scores a goal. fukin retarded. pay teachers, fire fighters, police, not doctors, or lawyers(they make more than enough already),soldiers, and whoever else provides a reputable public service.

86

[quote]PSlave wrote:
While I am not arguing that teachers are not sufficiently appreciated, I do take issue with a few points here.

First of all, why is $55k per year not defined as “good money?” I mean, seriously!

Second, why could someone “not live on the salary that teachers make,” assuming teachers are compensated at $55k per year?

Really! Live within your means! And $55k per year IS good money![/quote]

That is $55K after over thirty years on the job. $55K is great money when you have only been arounda few years (depending upon area). Regress that back, and it would be starting at $25K and getting a $1000/year raise. If you noticed, I based the “good money” comment on the number of years of experience and education level of the teachers, and then compared it to my personal income/education/experience. In view of the comparisons, $55K is NOT good money. For another comparison: my father is a civil engineer with about 40 years experience and makes $100K. He has had offers for up to $175K to move to other companies, but he likes his current job.

Plus, teachers do not have all that much room for advancement. In the business world, after a while someone can move up in ranks (management) or change jobs for a higher salary. Switching school districts rarely has much of an effect upon a teacher’s salary. The only real position advancement is to principal, and many schools do not “promote” teachers to principals often if ever.

–Ok, my diatribe is over for now.
For the record: my mother and many of her friends have always been teachers, and I (obviously) grew up around them so I know the issue from their side quite well. And yes, this issue gets me extremely incensed.

87

99.99% of college teachers SUCK!

88

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Well, I visited the NEA website (National Educ Association) and it’s pretty plain to see why education is so lousy in this country. It’s the pay!

In 1940, a typical male hs teacher made about 3.6% MORE than a guy with a degree in a different field. By 2000, the other guy made 60% more.

www.nea.org/edstats/losingground.html

So, the ‘No Child Left Behind’ and all that is just a crock. Its the pay – raise the damn pay!![/quote]

Also, who says education sucks in the US? I have collaborated with teachers
from Europe. In science, we do far more hands on work, they teach primarily to get kids to pass a national or county pencil and paper test. Students are rated on the basis of these tests. Also, many countries have highshools which are specific to a general field-like science and engineering. The lower 1/3 of kids go to a practical or technical highschool. The other 2/3 go a a school in an area that they have shown ability in. In the US all of the kids go to the same school with the same VERY GENERAL curriculum. I went to college and took chemistry with kids from South America who had had 4 different chemistry classes in highschool. That doesn’t fly in the US where every kid has to take fine arts, health, and a very wide variety of classes designed to make them “well rounded.” Which model is better?

89

[quote]mazilla wrote:
i have a suggestion. lets take the money jack off athletes make, and donate it to teachers. who cares if you can run fast, and catch a ball, or slam dunk. fuck off. give the money to everybody else. pro atletes should be pro because they love to play a game. thats what they do, PLAY. it’s the most retarded shit i have ever seen. the world should be ashamed of itself. 80 million dollars to run up and down a field, for what? so i can go yea when my team scores a goal. fukin retarded. pay teachers, fire fighters, police, not doctors, or lawyers(they make more than enough already),soldiers, and whoever else provides a reputable public service. [/quote]

Would you rather the government decide who makes what?

90

[quote]KJ Bridgewater wrote:
mazilla wrote:
i have a suggestion. lets take the money jack off athletes make, and donate it to teachers. who cares if you can run fast, and catch a ball, or slam dunk. fuck off. give the money to everybody else. pro atletes should be pro because they love to play a game. thats what they do, PLAY. it’s the most retarded shit i have ever seen. the world should be ashamed of itself. 80 million dollars to run up and down a field, for what? so i can go yea when my team scores a goal. fukin retarded. pay teachers, fire fighters, police, not doctors, or lawyers(they make more than enough already),soldiers, and whoever else provides a reputable public service.

Would you rather the government decide who makes what?[/quote]

The best part about pro-athletes making millions is that most of them are actually underpaid (in leagues with salary caps generally). No one ever seems to give a shit, or raise a fuss about the owners of sports franchises being the greedy, overpaid monopolists they are (the case of monopoly profits and collusion).

91

[quote]IronGame08 wrote:
You’re exactly right. In two years I will be a high school English teacher, and the pay is shit. I’m prepared for that though - I’m getting into the profession because I have a calling for it.

My dad has been a teacher for 34 years, and he is still only making about 80k. In any other field, someone with that kind of experience and expertise would be making double that.

People want to complain about the current state of education, yet all the reforms they pass just mask the fact that teachers have been getting shit on for years.[/quote]

80k to teach high school english is poor pay? What planet are you on? Less than 40 hours of work a week, with summers off. And I don’t know about the expertise part. He may be a great teacher, I don’t know, but in my experience younger teachers were better than older teachers. (old = burned out usually).

92

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
IronGame08 wrote:
You’re exactly right. In two years I will be a high school English teacher, and the pay is shit. I’m prepared for that though - I’m getting into the profession because I have a calling for it.

My dad has been a teacher for 34 years, and he is still only making about 80k. In any other field, someone with that kind of experience and expertise would be making double that.

People want to complain about the current state of education, yet all the reforms they pass just mask the fact that teachers have been getting shit on for years.

80k to teach high school english is poor pay? What planet are you on? Less than 40 hours of work a week, with summers off. And I don’t know about the expertise part. He may be a great teacher, I don’t know, but in my experience younger teachers were better than older teachers. (old = burned out usually).[/quote]

I have to agree with this for the most part. While I know this is a generalization, most of the older teachers I ever had, except for one, were extremely disconnected from the people they were teaching. There was no ability to relate to the students. This probably is less of a factor for younger children but I would imagine that may cause a problem in high school. Either way, 80K a year for a teacher isn’t bad at all.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
So, to treat our children’s bodies, we’ll pay someone a small fortune. To treat their minds, we’ll pay them a pittance.

Similar logic for law…shame.[/quote]

Wow, where was this disdain for the higher paid during the discussion about Oil companies charging the shit out of people who could barely afford it?

I had the best teachers in my entire school life in college. I am thankful for every good one that I had. However, there isn’t the same knowledge base or skill level involved in teaching a classroom as there is in even a minor surgical procedure that allows no room for error. The only way I could see teachers being on the same pay level as someone who spent the years in school and practice to become a lawyer or a doctor would be if the requirements to teach involved an advanced degree in psychology. I knew too many students in college all claiming to be future teachers who I wouldn’t trust in the same room with any kids I even casually knew.

93

This is especially true for old fart teachers who never had kids. They can’t seem to remember being a kid at all. It’s always the typical, “In my day…” bullshit. Old teachers who’ve raised kids seem to do a much better job (from what I’ve seen).

94

[quote]Guttus Gumptuous wrote:
99.99% of college teachers SUCK!
[/quote]
yeah look at from our perspectives what we are being handed from public schools…I think you’d agree we think most of the students suck.

95

  1. you need incentives set right - aimed at students

  2. you need an environment conducive to learning

You can’t get good results unless there is a reward for achieving results - an incentive.

Paying teachers does NOT give an incentive.

Paying STUDENTS is what you have to do.

Now the only people who do that are parents, who give rewards for good studies etc… and parents are the most able to do this because they should know their own kids well enough by school age to know how to push their buttons.

In reality they are the ones who are paid to learn, but only in the future, and that has to get into their thick heads. But again, that is the parents’ job.

You need an environment that is conducive to learning. SCHOOLS ARE NOT. They are for socialising and hitting on school chics and being part of a gang and other stupid behaviour - which, although essential for social development, is not good for learnin’.

The best environment for learning is a bunch of highly motivated kids put together to work on a task with specific outcomes of research AND a reward system that rewards hard effort through positive feedback and other incentives (such as money, but it should not have to be just money). The direction must be guided by a teacher with a strategy but the speed and motivation must be provided by the students. In this internet world this is essential.

Teachers’ pay is not that bad. It doesn’t matter what you get, it only matters what you keep - teachers have plenty of time to establish a long term investment strategy. Most of your income should come from you money, NOT from your job: there is nothing to say a teacher on those wages cannot build a fortune. Furthermore, there are many areas of teaching apart from schools that a person can move their career towards. And finally, after 30-40 years of teaching the same thing, hardly picking up any new skills, knowledge or experience, you would be dead in any professional career.

If kids are let down in any way at all, it is because they never learnt self-motivation and the rewards of learning when they were young, they are put into schools and made to feel dumb / compare themselves with others, and establish themselves in a fake hierachy of their intelligence level from an early age, then reinforce it for decades. If the government wants to fix the education system they have to get their teeth into the 5-10yr age group and ensure that isn’t the case.

Just throwing more money at teachers won’t do it.

Alternatively, give the teachers a bloody big stick, and let them beat the heck out of any kid that isn’t learning. That’s what they did when I was a boy.

96

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
How about some annual totals? Much more accurate.

Starting pay for most teachers across the country is in the high 20’s, about $28,000 per year.
[/quote]

The survey presents the mean hourly wage and the mean weekly hours worked. “The mean is computed by totaling the pay of all workers and dividing by the number of workers, weighted by hours.”

Teachers are listed as working 34.5 hours per week.

97

[quote]Magarhe wrote:

  1. you need incentives set right - aimed at students

  2. you need an environment conducive to learning

You can’t get good results unless there is a reward for achieving results - an incentive.

Paying teachers does NOT give an incentive.

Paying STUDENTS is what you have to do.

along with tons of other random useless tidbits

[/quote]

This is the dumbest thing I’ve heard since JeffR last posted. The last thing kids today need is anymore coddling just so they actually do what they are supposed to do in the first place.

Paid to learn? My incentive for going to class was so I would not end up like more than half of the guys in my old neighborhood and find myself in jail or dead by the age of 21. The incentive was the possibility of actually having a well paying job in the future.

One of the areas we have screwed up worse than any other is this new trend to avoid damaging these poor little fucks’ self esteem. They completely fuck up an essay assignment…let’s not fail them because that will make them feel bad. Let’s give them a smiley face sticker and one sad face sticker so they know to do better but that they are still great people on the inside.

I see a world of future losers once the school system starts paying students to do their own damn work.

98

[quote]daven wrote:
That is $55K after over thirty years on the job. $55K is great money when you have only been arounda few years (depending upon area). Regress that back, and it would be starting at $25K and getting a $1000/year raise. If you noticed, I based the “good money” comment on the number of years of experience and education level of the teachers, and then compared it to my personal income/education/experience. In view of the comparisons, $55K is NOT good money. For another comparison: my father is a civil engineer with about 40 years experience and makes $100K. He has had offers for up to $175K to move to other companies, but he likes his current job.

Plus, teachers do not have all that much room for advancement. In the business world, after a while someone can move up in ranks (management) or change jobs for a higher salary. Switching school districts rarely has much of an effect upon a teacher’s salary. The only real position advancement is to principal, and many schools do not “promote” teachers to principals often if ever.[/quote]

Good points, daven. It looks like I missed the context!

99

[quote]Professor X wrote:
cap’nsalty wrote:
IronGame08 wrote:
You’re exactly right. In two years I will be a high school English teacher, and the pay is shit. I’m prepared for that though - I’m getting into the profession because I have a calling for it.

My dad has been a teacher for 34 years, and he is still only making about 80k. In any other field, someone with that kind of experience and expertise would be making double that.

People want to complain about the current state of education, yet all the reforms they pass just mask the fact that teachers have been getting shit on for years.

80k to teach high school english is poor pay? What planet are you on? Less than 40 hours of work a week, with summers off. And I don’t know about the expertise part. He may be a great teacher, I don’t know, but in my experience younger teachers were better than older teachers. (old = burned out usually).

I have to agree with this for the most part. While I know this is a generalization, most of the older teachers I ever had, except for one, were extremely disconnected from the people they were teaching. There was no ability to relate to the students. This probably is less of a factor for younger children but I would imagine that may cause a problem in high school. Either way, 80K a year for a teacher isn’t bad at all.

Headhunter wrote:
So, to treat our children’s bodies, we’ll pay someone a small fortune. To treat their minds, we’ll pay them a pittance.

Similar logic for law…shame.

Wow, where was this disdain for the higher paid during the discussion about Oil companies charging the shit out of people who could barely afford it?

I had the best teachers in my entire school life in college. I am thankful for every good one that I had. However, there isn’t the same knowledge base or skill level involved in teaching a classroom as there is in even a minor surgical procedure that allows no room for error. The only way I could see teachers being on the same pay level as someone who spent the years in school and practice to become a lawyer or a doctor would be if the requirements to teach involved an advanced degree in psychology. I knew too many students in college all claiming to be future teachers who I wouldn’t trust in the same room with any kids I even casually knew.[/quote]

Since the American education system is basically avoided by highly talented college students in choice of career, there is a tendency for the weakest to go into teaching. Getting society to ‘pony up’ to remediate this problem is going to be tough. Since it took 60 years of neglect to totally screw it up, it won’t be fixed overnight.

But, I do know that raising teacher pay would go a long way to fixing this. Higher pay would attract more problem solvers and the cycle would feed on itself. The problem will NOT be fixed by making the school year longer or instituting some bs standardized tests. These are simply political actions taken by scam artists to convince the uneducated to vote for them.

100

I have a degree in education. I thought I wanted to teach/coach, turns out I hate that I would have to be in charge of 40- 50 bastard kids per class. After my student teaching I found out I hated kids, so no teaching job for me.

That being said, I would have loved to have a job with that many vacation days and the state retirement benifits and health insurance and free lunches at the cafeteria and a 20 to 30k income. I never needed alot of money to live, but that’s just me.