Be A Teacher Be a Fool

Off Topic
41

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Hmmm, that must be why there are millions of teachers in America compared to a few hundred heart surgeons huh?

You cannot use the correlation of number of heart surgeons to teachers to compare how much easier it is to teach than perform heart surgury. And why not? If it were easy, there’d be more people doing it. Especially for what they get paid.
[/quote]
Becasue to do so makes the assumption that all the teachers are teaching heart surgeons and if that were the case there would need to be a million+ heart surgeons to teach the students. Besides that, if it were so easy to teach then all heart surgeons would pass and not wash out of med school. Afterall, we don’t practice personal accountability in this country we blame everything on the teachers. Pay is determined by the demand for the profession as well as by the skill required and knowlege that must be had in order to perform the task, not just by the prestige of the job.

Please NOTE: I never said it is easier to teach than perform surgury I just said you cannot correlate the two based on the determiners you provided. You need to get some learning on statistics. I would be willing to teach you.

Not all heart surgeons can teach or are suited to teach, thus negating your previous statement.
[/quote]

42

I think another thing people have to take into account is the intensity of the work. Im an accountant so my job is no means short of hours and stress but the truth is, if Im having a bad day, I can take a few minutes here and there… if youre a teacher you are on ALL DAY… if you slack off even a little bit, not only are you not living up to your contract but kids will sense that weakness and prey on you and Ive seen it take its toll on even the toughest substitute earning summer money, let alone the teacher who uses this as their living… I dont know, I would personally like to see both the quality and the pay rise for teachers and I would never want to be one…

43

[quote]PSlave wrote:
But how many workers are executive level staff? My point was that 80k is a pretty damn good salary, no matter who you are.

That being said, how many teachers are at 80k? Probably not that many, so I wonder at the relevance of the original post citing an 80k salary.
[/quote]
Well, I know I said I don’t think they should be making the same amount. I want to be able to afford to send my kids to public school.

The point was after 35 yrs in that career one would expect to be making more. For the same reasons I stated earlier. Teachers don’t get to bargain for salary like the rest of private industry.

44

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
That equals 0.479 of the year.Add to that how ever many work days where the students aren’t in school, and you still have only slightly more than half the year. Easiest damn job on the planet.

[/quote]

Easiest job on the planet? Hardly. To tell the truth, that’s going to depend on the kind of person doing the job.

Here’s how it is - there’s a lot of teachers out there loafing - cutting corners, making poor decisions, and our kids are suffering.

There’s a lot of administration putting limits on what a teacher can do - this is a good thing and a bad thing, because not all teachers have the proper abilities in judgement to discipline and grade the right way - however, it robs those who could excel from having the opportunity.

It’s become too much of a pain in the ass - I wanted to become a teacher at one point because I like working with high school age kids, and summers ‘off’ were alluring. However, I did some work as an aide at an ‘alternative school’ (for the problem kids) - the kids were fine - it was the burnt out, complaining and bitching teachers that turned me away from the profession.

I never want to be like that or be a part of that.

So instead, I work in University Administration as a Housing Officer - that gives me the opportunity to help students who are moving on from HS to the college level - there are some doozies - half of them can’t construct a sentence.

I care a lot about kids, but I will most assuredly care most about my own - they will go to private school, where I can have more security about their education at school. They will get education at home as well.

There’s a lot of things to point the finger at with education…a lot - the parents, the teachers, the government, administrators, the lunchroom nutrition (ick), and the list could go on and on.

Pay in Montana is around $23,000 a year for a starting teacher - right now, I make $45,000 a year as a 2nd year University Administrator. I think I picked the right road.

CR

45

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Smells like a crock of shit.

Are they claiming the average salary for any random asshole with a college degree is 60% higher than a teachers?

I just skimmed it and it looks like they are comparing to others with graduate degrees.

Since this pulls in doctors and lawyers etc. it is very skewed.

The NEA is clever.

It’s comparing bachelor degree holders, year by year.

In 1940, a teacher with a BA made slightly more than someone of equivalent education. By 2000, someone with a BA makes average 60% more.

Doctors are not in the mix, because of the advanced degree requirements.
[/quote]

Read it again, it is not heads up bachelor to bachelor. They are also including post grad based on years of schooling.

46

I support our teachers, and my hats off to all of you. Teachers are made scapegoats for every worthless parent who should never been allowed to breed.

That being said, there are certain important jobs that will simply never pay what the training and responsibility should command because there are other factors in play. Take for example pilots, those guys flying the regional jets make as little as 17K. American Airlines had to up the pay for their Eagle pilots after the public found out some were on food stamps. Salaries for pilots will come down because there will always be people who want that job no matter how shitty it pays (yes I know there are high paying pilot positions, but most pilots don’t make it, those guys are at the pinnacle of the profession). Teaching is in the same boat, there are always going to be people who care enough and see the job as a calling. As long as there are limited funds, and people who will do the job for reasons other than the pay, the pay will remain low in most districts.

47

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I think it is this, combined with the fact that many people become teachers just to get the summers off. I don’t know how many teachers actually care about the kids they teach, but I’ve only had a handful that were actually good at what they did. Too many crappy teachers.

You get what you pay for. Crappy pay… crappy teaching.

How many of you guys want to teach 5 or so classes/day with about 28 smiling faces in each, go home and keep working (grading, writing tests, etc), all for a whopping $28,000 per year, to start?

LOL!

[/quote]

For the most part, though, you only take work home the first year. If after that you haven’t developed systems to minimize the out of class stuff, you are in trouble. I have a 110 mile round-trip commute. I show up 10 minutes before the bell rings (at 7:30) and I leave as soon as the busses pull away. I take full advantage of my planning period and lunch, instead of sitting around listening to the old farts bitch and moan.

I teach math, so it is certainly easier than some other subjects. I do my lesson plans in the summer, slowly, at my own pace. I save them on computer so I can just cut and paste during the year to fit the schedule. I have kids grade everything except tests. When I return the tests, the students have to go over each problem they missed and fill out a form explaining why they missed it (Copied the problem wrong, Made a simple mistake, or Just don’t get it). Then I can just look over the forms for each kid and see where they are having problems.

I realize that there are times when more work is required (grading essays, science fair projects, social studies projects, ect), but for the most part getting organized (which most teachers aren’t) cuts it way down.

48

Last time I checked, 80k was almost double the national median income.

The majority of the folks in this country will never see 100K.

49

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Actually, its not just teachers that have crappy pay. On average, recent graduates entering the workforce are still getting paid the same (in 1970’s dollars) as they were in the beginning part of the 70’s. If you compare that with the fact that the cost of living has nearly doubled they are, in fact, making less. …[/quote]

This doesn’t make sense.

When you convert to 70’s dollars you take into account cost of living.

Most jobs make the same now as they did in the 70’s relative to the cost of living. That is the way the economy works.

50

Oh, and to the original post–

NCLB allows for charter schools. That leads to competition. That leads to higher pay.

I teach at a charter school and make a lot more than a regular public school teacher with the same experience. Of course, I have to perform or my contract isn’t renewed.

51

According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, “earnings averaged $18.09 per hour in July 2004 for
private industry and State and local government workers in the United States. Average hourly earnings were lower for private industry workers ($17.25) than for State and local government workers ($22.77) in July 2004.”

Following are the occupations projected to grow at the fastest rate between 2004 and 2014, arranged by type of training:

Short-term on-the-job training
Home Health Aides (56%)

Moderate-term on-the-job training
Customer service representatives (23%)

Post-secondary vocational award
Nursing aides, orderlies, and attendants (22%)

Associate degree
Registered nurses (29%)

Bachelor’s or higher degree, plus work experience
General and operations managers (17%)

Doctoral degree
Postsecondary teachers (29%)

Following are full-time hourly earnings for those professions, from the National Compensation Survey: Occupational Wages in the
United States, July 2004:

Health aides, except nursing: $11.65
Telephone operators: $13.11
Nursing aides, orderlies, and attendants: $10.20
Registered nurses: $26.87
Executives, administrators and managers: $36.22
Teachers, except college and university: $30.91

Now, I would certainly welcome someone to check for additional surveys as that’s the first time I’ve pulled such information.

I’ll also be the first to say that statistics can be manipulated in all sorts of interesting ways. However, in light of these numbers, where’s the problem?

52

[quote]Revo09 wrote:
I think another thing people have to take into account is the intensity of the work. Im an accountant so my job is no means short of hours and stress but the truth is, if Im having a bad day, I can take a few minutes here and there… if youre a teacher you are on ALL DAY… if you slack off even a little bit, not only are you not living up to your contract but kids will sense that weakness and prey on you and Ive seen it take its toll on even the toughest substitute earning summer money, let alone the teacher who uses this as their living… I dont know, I would personally like to see both the quality and the pay rise for teachers and I would never want to be one…[/quote]

Teachers have a number of breaks built into the day. They are not in front of students the whole time.

53

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Hmmm, that must be why there are millions of teachers in America compared to a few hundred heart surgeons huh?

You cannot use the correlation of number of heart surgeons to teachers to compare how much easier it is to teach than perform heart surgury. And why not? If it were easy, there’d be more people doing it. Especially for what they get paid.

Becasue to do so makes the assumption that all the teachers are teaching heart surgeons and if that were the case there would need to be a million+ heart surgeons to teach the students. Besides that, if it were so easy to teach then all heart surgeons would pass and not wash out of med school. Afterall, we don’t practice personal accountability in this country we blame everything on the teachers. Pay is determined by the demand for the profession as well as by the skill required and knowlege that must be had in order to perform the task, not just by the prestige of the job.

Please NOTE: I never said it is easier to teach than perform surgury I just said you cannot correlate the two based on the determiners you provided. You need to get some learning on statistics. I would be willing to teach you.

Besides, surgeons would only know how to cut someone if not for their teachers. They have to be TAUGHT the rest.

By whom? A “Heart Surgery Teacher”? Or more likely, a practicing heart surgeon…

Not all heart surgeons can teach or are suited to teach, thus negating your previous statement.
[/quote]

The point is that teacher pay (like everyone else’s) is determined by supply & demand. The fast food industry can pay their employees a low wage because the work is simple, and therefore there is a large pool from which to draw employees. Teachers make more than burger-flippers because it is more difficult work, requires more training, and the pool of potential employees is smaller. Heart surgery pays much more for similar reasons. Teaching requires a great deal of patience and dedication, but face it, it isn’t rocket science.

54

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Teachers don’t get to bargain for salary like the rest of private industry.
[/quote]

That is a valid point. While teachers are represented by unions, the school district is limited in what it can pay out in salaries by what they receive from local and state taxes. Employees in the private sector have a greater freedom in negotiating salaries. After all, businesses exist for profit, schools do not.

55

[quote]doogie wrote:
Oh, and to the original post–

NCLB allows for charter schools. That leads to competition. That leads to higher pay.

I teach at a charter school and make a lot more than a regular public school teacher with the same experience. Of course, I have to perform or my contract isn’t renewed.[/quote]

And there, Ladies & Gentlemen, you have the reason our public schools suck. Because they have no competition, no incentive to excell. If Doogie doesn’t excell, he doesn’t have a job (just like the rest of us). If a public teacher doesn’t excell, oh well…

56

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Actually, its not just teachers that have crappy pay. On average, recent graduates entering the workforce are still getting paid the same (in 1970’s dollars) as they were in the beginning part of the 70’s. If you compare that with the fact that the cost of living has nearly doubled they are, in fact, making less. …

This doesn’t make sense.

When you convert to 70’s dollars you take into account cost of living.

Most jobs make the same now as they did in the 70’s relative to the cost of living. That is the way the economy works.
[/quote]
Okay I am not an economist so I can’t answer that…however…I got all my facts and figures from a book I am currently reading, “Strapped”, by Tamara Draut. It explains it better than I do. Also, not sure what is actually accounted for between the CPI and inflation index. It would be good to know that.

57

[quote]PSlave wrote:
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, “earnings averaged $18.09 per hour in July 2004 for
private industry and State and local government workers in the United States. Average hourly earnings were lower for private industry workers ($17.25) than for State and local government workers ($22.77) in July 2004.”

Following are the occupations projected to grow at the fastest rate between 2004 and 2014, arranged by type of training:

Short-term on-the-job training
Home Health Aides (56%)

Moderate-term on-the-job training
Customer service representatives (23%)

Post-secondary vocational award
Nursing aides, orderlies, and attendants (22%)

Associate degree
Registered nurses (29%)

Bachelor’s or higher degree, plus work experience
General and operations managers (17%)

Doctoral degree
Postsecondary teachers (29%)

Following are full-time hourly earnings for those professions, from the National Compensation Survey: Occupational Wages in the
United States, July 2004:

Health aides, except nursing: $11.65
Telephone operators: $13.11
Nursing aides, orderlies, and attendants: $10.20
Registered nurses: $26.87
Executives, administrators and managers: $36.22
Teachers, except college and university: $30.91

Now, I would certainly welcome someone to check for additional surveys as that’s the first time I’ve pulled such information.

I’ll also be the first to say that statistics can be manipulated in all sorts of interesting ways. However, in light of these numbers, where’s the problem?
[/quote]
How much of this data is skewed by upper level management that make X00% more than the average worker?

58

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:

The school district I’m in has 175 school days/year. That equals 0.479 of the year.Add to that how ever many work days where the students aren’t in school, and you still have only slightly more than half the year. Easiest damn job on the planet.

[/quote]

You do realize that a normal “work-year” does not go for 365 days? Nominally, it is 50 weeks, 5 days a week. so 250 days. Subtract out the various holidays, and you are down to about 230-240 days. So by your logic, the teachers work about 60 days/year less than “normal” people.

Now, add the fact that teachers commonly work ten hours a day just in the school. Then they grade papers, write lesson plans, create tests, etc., during the evenings and weekends.

To all of you who think teachers make good money, let me put this in front of you:
My mother has been a teacher for 34 years. One of her friends has been teaching for 29 years, and another for 33 years. All have received commendations for excellent teaching. All have masters degrees in education. They all make about $55K/year. I, on the other hand, have a bachelors degree in biology, work as a computer programmer, am only 26 years old, and my salary is $65K, and soon to be close to $90K. So 5.5 years of experience in a self-taught discipline vs 30+ years and degrees in the field. Yet I make more than any of them.

Is it any wonder why I went into computers rather than getting my masters/doctorate in bio and teaching? There is no way I could be making nearly as much in education as I do as a programmer. And as for benefits, mine beat the hell out of a teacher’s.

Do you want to know why there are so many bad teachers? Because many of the people who would make excellent teachers realized that they could not live on the salary teachers make. Add in the fact that very few districts have any real training, and you get bad teachers.

Anyone who wants to say that teachers have an easy life, make enough money, and do not deserve anything more, try it. Go to a local school. Be a substitute teacher for a month. Then come back here and tell me that teachers do not deserve higher salaries.

Oh, yeah: do you know the highest paid job in a school usually is? Sport coaches.

59

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
The point is that teacher pay (like everyone else’s) is determined by supply & demand.
[/quote]
This, I will buy; however, isn’t the demand for teachers larger now than ever before?

60

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
The school district I’m in has 175 school days/year. That equals 0.479 of the year.Add to that how ever many work days where the students aren’t in school, and you still have only slightly more than half the year. Easiest damn job on the planet.
[/quote]

When you take into account weekends for spacing, that works out to 35 weeks a year. Math wasn’t your strong suit, was it?

When you throw in the extra hours a good teacher works, you get a much larger figure.

“Easiest damn job on the planet” remains the warcry of the woefully ignorant.