[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If a heart surgeon does one major surgery per week, which takes 5 hours to do on average, then is he also overpaid? Hey, look at all the off time he has! Wow!!
[/quote]
Very few people in the world are capable of becoming a heart surgeon, either mentally or physically. Nearly anybody has the capability of becoming a teacher. Not a very valid analogy.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I think it is this, combined with the fact that many people become teachers just to get the summers off. I don’t know how many teachers actually care about the kids they teach, but I’ve only had a handful that were actually good at what they did. Too many crappy teachers.
You get what you pay for. Crappy pay… crappy teaching.
How many of you guys want to teach 5 or so classes/day with about 28 smiling faces in each, go home and keep working (grading, writing tests, etc), all for a whopping $28,000 per year, to start?
LOL!
[/quote]
So how much do you think a teacher should make? $200k, $300k, I mean the value they add is immeasurable. This is the same argument for minimum wage.
When I got out of college in 2001 I started out at 24k doing accounting. I’m only making 34k now. I think if a teacher starts out similar to that it is a pretty good salary.
[quote]WtCoach wrote:
Working half the year and putting in 12 + hour days 5 days a week. What people don’t realize is all that goes into teaching. You don’t just show up 10 minutes before the students do and do your job. You don’t leave when the after school bell rings. Many are there 2 hours before and 2 hours after. They also take their work home with them. They have papers to grade, lesson plans to make, and parent phone calls to deal with at home. Yes, parents will call you at all hours of the night. I taught for three years, 1997-2000. I made about 21,000 a year. To pay my college loans and my rent payment, and car payment I also worked two other jobs as well as coached three sports. Yeah, I knew the pay sucked going in, but that is also why I am no longer a teacher. I couldn’t aford it. It is too bad because I actually was in it for the kids.[/quote]
Considering my daughter’s school starts at 8:20 and gets out at 3:30, working an hour before and a couple of hours after still doesn’t make a very full day. I normally put in 10 hours a day, I DON’T get summers off, or a month for Christmas, plus a week for spring break and Thanksgiving. If I had to do it over I’d become a teacher. Easiest damn job on the planet.
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
If a heart surgeon does one major surgery per week, which takes 5 hours to do on average, then is he also overpaid? Hey, look at all the off time he has! Wow!!
Very few people in the world are capable of becoming a heart surgeon, either mentally or physically. Nearly anybody has the capability of becoming a teacher. Not a very valid analogy.
[/quote]
LMAO!! I’ve been in this game for 25 years and VERY few people can teach. We often have to try to teach someone like Wanda the future K-Mart clerk or Benny the future carwash attendent. You are welcome to try it.
More LMAO!!
[quote]Todd S. wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
I think it is this, combined with the fact that many people become teachers just to get the summers off. I don’t know how many teachers actually care about the kids they teach, but I’ve only had a handful that were actually good at what they did. Too many crappy teachers.
You get what you pay for. Crappy pay… crappy teaching.
How many of you guys want to teach 5 or so classes/day with about 28 smiling faces in each, go home and keep working (grading, writing tests, etc), all for a whopping $28,000 per year, to start?
LOL!
So how much do you think a teacher should make? $200k, $300k, I mean the value they add is immeasurable. This is the same argument for minimum wage.
When I got out of college in 2001 I started out at 24k doing accounting. I’m only making 34k now. I think if a teacher starts out similar to that it is a pretty good salary.
[/quote]
Was it a bachelors degree? I just read where accounting starts at $41,000.
Were you responsible, in part, for the lives of 140 children?
What’s that worth? What an accounting clerk makes?
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
WtCoach wrote:
Working half the year and putting in 12 + hour days 5 days a week. What people don’t realize is all that goes into teaching. You don’t just show up 10 minutes before the students do and do your job. You don’t leave when the after school bell rings. Many are there 2 hours before and 2 hours after. They also take their work home with them. They have papers to grade, lesson plans to make, and parent phone calls to deal with at home. Yes, parents will call you at all hours of the night. I taught for three years, 1997-2000. I made about 21,000 a year. To pay my college loans and my rent payment, and car payment I also worked two other jobs as well as coached three sports. Yeah, I knew the pay sucked going in, but that is also why I am no longer a teacher. I couldn’t aford it. It is too bad because I actually was in it for the kids.
Considering my daughter’s school starts at 8:20 and gets out at 3:30, working an hour before and a couple of hours after still doesn’t make a very full day. I normally put in 10 hours a day, I DON’T get summers off, or a month for Christmas, plus a week for spring break and Thanksgiving. If I had to do it over I’d become a teacher. Easiest damn job on the planet.
[/quote]
Well, on my month off at Christmas, I scubad in the Caymans, then sailed my yacht around Cape Horn just for laughs.
You’re obviously saying these things just to pull my chain. Maybe you should go pull something else.
Actually, its not just teachers that have crappy pay. On average, recent graduates entering the workforce are still getting paid the same (in 1970’s dollars) as they were in the beginning part of the 70’s. If you compare that with the fact that the cost of living has nearly doubled they are, in fact, making less. On top of that the cost of a university education has jumped about 600% since then and does not guarantee a job that will help pay for that education and current cost of living.
It is becoming increasingly difficult to obtain a university education because of the rise in cost of nearly EVERYTHING. Financial aid has been nearly dropped in the last 5 years and the only aid most students see is in the form of loans. My question is what kind of country are going to be when the only people who can afford an education are the privileged few?
By the way, I am still paying off my first four years of university loans (about $30k to go) and was lucky enough to get into a graduate program that paid for the other six. Unfortunately, while attending grad school I had to put off paying my loans because assistanceships do not pay well and I had other costs to consider.
I work as a associate professor at a university and can say my pay is ok–teaching is only part of the job. Would I like more? You betcha! but I also want kids to be able to afford a university education as well.
[quote]IronGame08 wrote:
You’re exactly right. In two years I will be a high school English teacher, and the pay is shit. I’m prepared for that though - I’m getting into the profession because I have a calling for it.
[/quote]
if you don’t like the pay then don’t take the job…it’s that simple…kids don’t need to listen to another grumbling adult bitching about their pay scale…
if you want to make more money then go into something else…
horseshit! jobs making 160k a year are few and far between (unless you’re a doctor or lawyer or equivalent)…no matter how much experience you have…
[quote]
People want to complain about the current state of education, yet all the reforms they pass just mask the fact that teachers have been getting shit on for years.[/quote]
again…if someone feels they are being shit on that person needs to be proactive and find another career…
if enough people bail out of teaching salaries will go up…as long as there is an abundance of people wanting to become teachers, salaries will stay down…
if you want to be a teacher…do it because you love it…not because you expect to get paid alot…if you’re in it only for the money, find another profession…
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Was it a bachelors degree? I just read where accounting starts at $41,000.
Were you responsible, in part, for the lives of 140 children?
What’s that worth? What an accounting clerk makes?
[/quote]
yeah that is a bachelors degree and there are a lot of other factors and different feilds within accounting. Audit work tends to pay more.
I think teachers make plenty, I guess if they don’t agree they should stop doing it. I already pay enough in taxes to the school and I don’t want to pay any more. I also remember shitty the teachers at my school were and they were not earning what they got paid.
I’m still interested in what you think is a fair salary?
I would probably support a performance based pay scale.
[quote]IronGame08 wrote:
My dad has been a teacher for 34 years, and he is still only making about 80k. In any other field, someone with that kind of experience and expertise would be making double that.
[/quote]
“Only” 80k? Is that such a bad salary? What is the average salary in the U.S.?
Name some positions below the Sr. Director / Junior Vice President level, excluding physician and attorney, where someone with 34 years of experience would be making $160k.
“Easiest damn job on the planet” is the warcry of the woefully ignorant. Most people can’t handle half a dozen kids, never mind 20-30 with varying needs, some with behavioural conditions or mental problems.
A good teacher writes programs that account for every one of their students. Before our daughter was born, my wife was out of the house every morning by 6am, and usually didn’t get back home 'till that time in the pm. Sometimes later.
A month off at Christmas? Either you live in the most easy-going district I’ve ever heard of, or you’re woefully exaggerating. Two weeks, and for a goodly portion of that I see my wife curled up on the couch, surrounded by papers and notes, grading and compiling information on her students.
Summer is two months off, not half the year as another mathematically-challanged poster surmised. The first two weeks of which she shuts down her classroom as required by local regulations, and the last two weeks of which she goes back to prepare it for the incoming crew.
A good portion of Saturdays and Sundays are devoted to going over grades, charting progress, and reevaluating what’s going to be taught in the coming week – while trying to stay within the framework dictated by the government.
Yes, there are a LOT of crappy teachers out there. The good ones often work themselves near to death, and end up either burning out, or leaving the field. Often both. But before anybody goes braying about how wonderfully teachers are compensated, take a look at the number of jackass parents in our weak-kneed society. Look at how often personal accountability is now shot down; lawsuits that punish bars or people who throw parties because some jag-off decides to drive drunk after leaving. Courts accepting ‘poor upbringing’ as a defence for crimes. Deficient parents blaming teachers for their kids’ behavioural problems or lack of academic acheivement.
Teachers have become a favourite target of weak-ass politicians who use them as strawmen for easy attacks. Some people buy into it.
It’s basic capitalist theory: the skilled workers will be drawn to where the good conditions are. If you want an excellent education system, if you want excellent teachers, it requires that at least a decent salary be combined with good working conditions. The two very rarely meet.
Chances are that if you know a teacher who enjoys the ease of the job, then chances are you know one of the poor teachers most people complain about.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
If a heart surgeon does one major surgery per week, which takes 5 hours to do on average, then is he also overpaid? Hey, look at all the off time he has! Wow!!
Very few people in the world are capable of becoming a heart surgeon, either mentally or physically. Nearly anybody has the capability of becoming a teacher. Not a very valid analogy.
LMAO!! I’ve been in this game for 25 years and VERY few people can teach. We often have to try to teach someone like Wanda the future K-Mart clerk or Benny the future carwash attendent. You are welcome to try it.
More LMAO!!
[/quote]
Hmmm, that must be why there are millions of teachers in America compared to a few hundred heart surgeons huh?
Quality of teachers, and in effect, quality of schools has little to do with pay. The reason so many schools are low quality is because our schooling system is mostly a government monopoly, i.e. no competition (just the like the US postal system). The result is high ineffiency and low quality, since schools do not have to compete against each other for students. Just look at the current state of public schools and this is fairly obvious. As with pay, it is safe to assume that if schools did have to compete over students, then the BEST teachers at the BEST schools would make the most money. The idea that more pay causes teachers to perform better is a little presumptious; it is better to say great teachers should make more money because they are great teachers.
That’s not to say it will be all that easy to measure teacher performance. After all, the no-child left behind issue merely created the incentive for teachers to cheat rather than perform better.
[quote]Northcott wrote:
Considering my daughter’s school starts at 8:20 and gets out at 3:30, working an hour before and a couple of hours after still doesn’t make a very full day. I normally put in 10 hours a day, I DON’T get summers off, or a month for Christmas, plus a week for spring break and Thanksgiving. If I had to do it over I’d become a teacher. Easiest damn job on the planet.
“Easiest damn job on the planet” is the warcry of the woefully ignorant. Most people can’t handle half a dozen kids, never mind 20-30 with varying needs, some with behavioural conditions or mental problems.
A good teacher writes programs that account for every one of their students. Before our daughter was born, my wife was out of the house every morning by 6am, and usually didn’t get back home 'till that time in the pm. Sometimes later.
A month off at Christmas? Either you live in the most easy-going district I’ve ever heard of, or you’re woefully exaggerating. Two weeks, and for a goodly portion of that I see my wife curled up on the couch, surrounded by papers and notes, grading and compiling information on her students.
Summer is two months off, not half the year as another mathematically-challanged poster surmised. The first two weeks of which she shuts down her classroom as required by local regulations, and the last two weeks of which she goes back to prepare it for the incoming crew.
A good portion of Saturdays and Sundays are devoted to going over grades, charting progress, and reevaluating what’s going to be taught in the coming week – while trying to stay within the framework dictated by the government.
Yes, there are a LOT of crappy teachers out there. The good ones often work themselves near to death, and end up either burning out, or leaving the field. Often both. But before anybody goes braying about how wonderfully teachers are compensated, take a look at the number of jackass parents in our weak-kneed society. Look at how often personal accountability is now shot down; lawsuits that punish bars or people who throw parties because some jag-off decides to drive drunk after leaving. Courts accepting ‘poor upbringing’ as a defence for crimes. Deficient parents blaming teachers for their kids’ behavioural problems or lack of academic acheivement.
Teachers have become a favourite target of weak-ass politicians who use them as strawmen for easy attacks. Some people buy into it.
It’s basic capitalist theory: the skilled workers will be drawn to where the good conditions are. If you want an excellent education system, if you want excellent teachers, it requires that at least a decent salary be combined with good working conditions. The two very rarely meet.
Chances are that if you know a teacher who enjoys the ease of the job, then chances are you know one of the poor teachers most people complain about.
[/quote]
The school district I’m in has 175 school days/year. That equals 0.479 of the year.Add to that how ever many work days where the students aren’t in school, and you still have only slightly more than half the year. Easiest damn job on the planet.
[quote]PSlave wrote:
“Only” 80k? Is that such a bad salary? What is the average salary in the U.S.?
[/quote]
What is the salary of an executive level staff member who has been in the business the same amount of time as his dad?
I can safely assume it is way off. I am not saying that it should be the same. Percentage wise it isn’t even close.
If a person starts out mid 30’s and receives a 3% raise yearly by the time that person reaches 35 yrs of tenure he or she will be making close to $100k. Lets assume that his dad started out in the low $20k salary range 35 yrs ago. By my calculation he should be somewhere around $60k just to keep up with inflation.
If we compare an excutive level staff memeber we would probably see larger raises or the course of the career due to promotions and other incentives.
Most teachers will only see their pay rise when the school board vite in favor of a pay raise. This is not so with private business. It’s part of the bargaining game.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Considering my daughter’s school starts at 8:20 and gets out at 3:30, working an hour before and a couple of hours after still doesn’t make a very full day. I normally put in 10 hours a day, I DON’T get summers off, or a month for Christmas, plus a week for spring break and Thanksgiving. If I had to do it over I’d become a teacher. Easiest damn job on the planet.
Well, on my month off at Christmas, I scubad in the Caymans, then sailed my yacht around Cape Horn just for laughs.
You’re obviously saying these things just to pull my chain. Maybe you should go pull something else.
[/quote]
What, you want 150+ days off a year AND a salary competative with those who work all year? From my perspective you don’t have much to complain about.
[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Hmmm, that must be why there are millions of teachers in America compared to a few hundred heart surgeons huh?
[/quote]
You cannot use the correlation of number of heart surgeons to teachers to compare how much easier it is to teach than perform heart surgury.
Besides, surgeons would only know how to cut someone if not for their teachers. They have to be TAUGHT the rest.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
PSlave wrote:
“Only” 80k? Is that such a bad salary? What is the average salary in the U.S.?
What is the salary of an executive level staff member who has been in the business the same amount of time as his dad?
[/quote]
But how many workers are executive level staff? My point was that 80k is a pretty damn good salary, no matter who you are.
That being said, how many teachers are at 80k? Probably not that many, so I wonder at the relevance of the original post citing an 80k salary.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Hmmm, that must be why there are millions of teachers in America compared to a few hundred heart surgeons huh?
You cannot use the correlation of number of heart surgeons to teachers to compare how much easier it is to teach than perform heart surgury. [/quote] And why not? If it were easy, there’d be more people doing it. Especially for what they get paid. [quote]
Besides, surgeons would only know how to cut someone if not for their teachers. They have to be TAUGHT the rest.
[/quote]
By whom? A “Heart Surgery Teacher”? Or more likely, a practicing heart surgeon…
I think the teachers are unable to see the forrest from the trees, I may be way off with this analogy (sp?) but go with me on this a sec. Insted of bitching about lack of pay, look at all the unnecessary administration dead weight the school systems have to carry. Stop paying district Supt’s six figure saleries. Trim some of that fat off same as a private industry would have to. Regulate yourselve’s ya whiny bitches.