Bastille Day

Off Topic
101

[quote]Otep wrote:

In one sense I hear you. I like the idea of America being a place for those who work hard to make their future by the sweat of their brow and the strength and skill of their hands, regardless of their country of origin. But I imagine its hard to select for diligence-of-character, because such an attribute is hard to compute.

I think the international standard of legal immigration is to accept people with skills your economy needs and can’t provide endogenously, and people from friendly neighbor states in certain numbers held to a point where they won’t affect the societal status quo.

How would you change it?[/quote]

Bring back slavery.

102

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
They wouldn’t take the handout if it wasn’t being handed to them.

[/quote]

BING FUCKING GO

Edevus, have you ever lived in France or do you only based your arguments on videos or articles you’ve seen/read?

All the exclusion you’re talking about can happen anywhere. Let’s take London, England, for example. Just like Paris, London boasts to be the multiculturalism capital of the world. But you see, there’re Indian and Pakistani hoods, Jewish hoods, African hood, Caribbean hoods, Polish hoods, Philipino hoods, Irish hoods, English hoods… shit, losing my breath here… and you get the minority hoods where all races live happily together.

Maybe if the ‘indigenous’ population was okay with integrating with other cultures instead of fleeing to the outskirts of the city and settle there, maybe there wouldn’t be so much separation between cultures. That’s my opinion.

Same shit goes down in Paris as well. I was born and lived there for 20 years.

Same complaints I hear from the Parisians. And what do they all do? They flee to the outskirts. Their old hoods are then taken over by the immigrants. Who in turn start bringing their families over.

Okay now bear in mind that in this post I am only talking about groups seclusion, immigration and the handout system. I’ll come back to the subject of violence and the education refusal later.

Now the only difference between the French system and British, is that the British immigration system has been such an easy fuck for so many years. The French government hate immigrants like I hate cricket. Funny how they’ve forgotten about those Colonies they pillaged and messed about but now they’re willing to tighten their borders or make life miserable for the people from the said colonies seeking to take advantage of the opportunities they offer. And these are people WILLING to settle, learn the language, paying their taxes like any other French person.

Why do you think illegals love to stop by the UK and disappear with no trace? In France, if you’re legal immigrant, you must carry a ‘carte de sejour’ with you at all time. If you’re stopped and don’t have it, you’re screwed cos they’ll happily put you in jail for that. In their eyes, you’re illegal until proven innocent. In the UK, you’re an immigrant, legal or illegal, you’ll get stopped - meh, that rarely happens anyway - you give a fake name and address and there, you’re on your way, with a gently pat on the shoulder.

The British government is so politically correct to the cunt – excuse my French, even my fellow Frenchies have never been so nice – that it does anything to offer equal opportunity to everyone, including illegals. Asylum seekers and other illegal immigrants, get to live in big houses with their 20+ family members, they even get monthly allowance, free healthcare etc… Some of my taxes is used to look after them.

And I ain’t even mad at them, lol. The system is just fucking flawed, they’re just taking advantage of it.

103

I do.
I live near Paris. And i’m a high school teacher in those “ghettos” he mentions.
some of these brave immigrant kids who burn cars as a hobby are my students.
He is basically right.

104

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
They wouldn’t take the handout if it wasn’t being handed to them.

[/quote]

BING FUCKING GO

Edevus, have you ever lived in France or do you only based your arguments on videos or articles you’ve seen/read?[/quote]

No, but I have lived pretty much all my life in a city that is slowly turning into this.
Kamui can give more detailed information about Paris than I do.

I can tell you about my old city and how some neighbourhoods are decaying at a very fast rate, since they become a spot for drug dealing. People move out, prices pummel down, poor people move in, area decays and becomes dirty and unsafe.
Old random criminals get quickly replaced by more organized and dangerous bands.

But, I really can’t tell you more. I will probably not convince any of you. You would have to see all this with your own eyes and see how areas were before this.

Of course there are natives that are poor and/or criminals. Many, for sure, but they don’t have lots of children, ghetto themselves, etc.

105

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:

That’s just semantics. If you were born in a place, but don’t like it, don’t speak the language, don’t know the history, don’t respect the culture or the customs…can you consider yourself a native? These third generation Algerians hate France and whistle La Marseillaise when it sounds.

[/quote]

Um yes, that’s the definition of Nationhood and Nationality - and if this is part of your issue, then you should question “what is citizenry?” Does one have to like the place they are born in, adhere to its values and customs in order to be a citizen of that country?

[/quote]

When you become a citizen of a country, you accept both duties and rights. It’s the duty of a citizen to speak the language of the country (depends the Constitution of course), besides other things. People want the rights, but forget the duties.

Russians here, where I live, don’t consider themselves natives even if they were born here. They consider themselves Russians…even if they have never been in Russia.
[/quote]

Hm. That’s an interesting view, but faulty in my opinion. The reasons being that:

a) You don’t always “become” a citizen. You are simply born in a “territory” - that’s why the idea citizenry was invented, and birth certificates administered, and passports needed for travel. That territory, the country you are born in, has a constitution and laws and normative customs. You are a citizen of that country, simply for having been born there. You don’t have to adopt any of those customs and values, beliefs, duties, etc. as a citizen of that country - you don’t have to do ANYTHING. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying “Now, be a good Frenchman” (altho, I wouldn’t be surprised if this started happening, considering the arguments you put forth).

Ideally, of course, and I’m sure any countries administration would agree, as a citizen you SHOULD accept the duties and rights of that country, as you say. But that’s not ipso facto, my friend. And furthermore, its not even ideal! Imagine if a country, completely tyrannical, akin to Nazi Germany, had all its citizens adopting its values and perpetuating its socio-pathic agenda, simply because they are citizens of that country. (viewed globally, that would be bad)

b) You speak of these Russians. Essentially, they are born natives who consider themselves Russian. They are STILL natives, who merely self-identify as Russian! They pay taxes, live and work, and are educated in your country - they are only “Russian” because that’s what THEY claim to be. Its their identity, which, and thankfully, they are free to choose.

So you see, its not just a matter of semantics. On the one hand its a matter of constitutionality and birthright. And on the other, its about identity and individual agency.

And therein is the problem with your Algerians in France - while these native born Algerians reap the rewards of the French social system, they are not adhearing to their civic duties as Frenchmen. And while philosophically I might agree with you that if you plan to take advantage of the social system, you should adopt the custom, values and mores of that country. Thats not how it works. If it did, it would be fascism.

106

[quote]Otep wrote:

I think the international standard of legal immigration is to accept people with skills your economy needs and can’t provide endogenously, and people from friendly neighbor states in certain numbers held to a point where they won’t affect the societal status quo.

How would you change it?[/quote]

That’s actually a pretty good summation. Altho I’m unclear on what you mean by “and people from friendly neighbor states in certain numbers held to a point where they won’t affect the societal status quo.”

I think the system we have in place in the US ins’t all that bad. However, and I’m not sure what its like in the rest of the world, a large portion of “legal immigrants” that enter the US, actually have to come into the US legally as visitors, overstay their welcome, and then find ways in which to become legal (unless under refugee status or similar).

If i’m correct, the US will hand out visas to foreigners to come and work and study here - but to become a a citizen, or legal alien, you most likely have to marry an American.

107

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
They wouldn’t take the handout if it wasn’t being handed to them.

[/quote]

BING FUCKING GO

Edevus, have you ever lived in France or do you only based your arguments on videos or articles you’ve seen/read?

All the exclusion you’re talking about can happen anywhere. Let’s take London, England, for example. Just like Paris, London boasts to be the multiculturalism capital of the world. But you see, there’re Indian and Pakistani hoods, Jewish hoods, African hood, Caribbean hoods, Polish hoods, Philipino hoods, Irish hoods, English hoods… shit, losing my breath here… and you get the minority hoods where all races live happily together.

Maybe if the ‘indigenous’ population was okay with integrating with other cultures instead of fleeing to the outskirts of the city and settle there, maybe there wouldn’t be so much separation between cultures. That’s my opinion.

Same shit goes down in Paris as well. I was born and lived there for 20 years.

Same complaints I hear from the Parisians. And what do they all do? They flee to the outskirts. Their old hoods are then taken over by the immigrants. Who in turn start bringing their families over.

Okay now bear in mind that in this post I am only talking about groups seclusion, immigration and the handout system. I’ll come back to the subject of violence and the education refusal later.

Now the only difference between the French system and British, is that the British immigration system has been such an easy fuck for so many years. The French government hate immigrants like I hate cricket. Funny how they’ve forgotten about those Colonies they pillaged and messed about but now they’re willing to tighten their borders or make life miserable for the people from the said colonies seeking to take advantage of the opportunities they offer. And these are people WILLING to settle, learn the language, paying their taxes like any other French person.

Why do you think illegals love to stop by the UK and disappear with no trace? In France, if you’re legal immigrant, you must carry a ‘carte de sejour’ with you at all time. If you’re stopped and don’t have it, you’re screwed cos they’ll happily put you in jail for that. In their eyes, you’re illegal until proven innocent. In the UK, you’re an immigrant, legal or illegal, you’ll get stopped - meh, that rarely happens anyway - you give a fake name and address and there, you’re on your way, with a gently pat on the shoulder.

The British government is so politically correct to the cunt – excuse my French, even my fellow Frenchies have never been so nice – that it does anything to offer equal opportunity to everyone, including illegals. Asylum seekers and other illegal immigrants, get to live in big houses with their 20+ family members, they even get monthly allowance, free healthcare etc… Some of my taxes is used to look after them.

And I ain’t even mad at them, lol. The system is just fucking flawed, they’re just taking advantage of it. [/quote]

I love this girl.

108

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
They wouldn’t take the handout if it wasn’t being handed to them.

[/quote]

BING FUCKING GO

Edevus, have you ever lived in France or do you only based your arguments on videos or articles you’ve seen/read?[/quote]

No, but I have lived pretty much all my life in a city that is slowly turning into this.
Kamui can give more detailed information about Paris than I do.

I can tell you about my old city and how some neighbourhoods are decaying at a very fast rate, since they become a spot for drug dealing. People move out, prices pummel down, poor people move in, area decays and becomes dirty and unsafe.
Old random criminals get quickly replaced by more organized and dangerous bands.

But, I really can’t tell you more. I will probably not convince any of you. You would have to see all this with your own eyes and see how areas were before this.

Of course there are natives that are poor and/or criminals. Many, for sure, but they don’t have lots of children, ghetto themselves, etc.
[/quote]

What makes me laugh is that you think we must “see this with our own eyes” - as if we have no idea what’s going on, and are so naive to think that it isn’t.

I’m from New Jersey man. We seen this happen a million times, it just happened 60-70 years ago in Newark and Paterson. We watched it happen in New York City, where some neighborhoods in the early 60s went from being all Italian and Irish to 80 percent black and Hispanic INSIDE FIVE YEARS.

Trust me when I tell you we have seen more of it, and on a more grand scale, than you could ever imagine. The White Flight, the Great Migration… there’s a reason these terms are capitalized in American History. These transitions make your old neighborhoods time of change seem like a drop in the bucket.

Seriously, you’d better get used to it. This is the future.

109

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

If i’m correct, the US will hand out visas to foreigners to come and work and study here - but to become a a citizen, or legal alien, you most likely have to marry an American.
[/quote]

No, those with green cards are the legal aliens. To become a citizen you must go through the naturalization process, which I believe means you have to live in the country for a set amount of years and take tests relating to American civics, etc.

It is a difficult road I have heard, but it is possible.

110

FightinIrish26, I will say it one more time and not again, because I’m tired of this.

The problem is that the economical system/welfare system of many European countries is NOT prepared to hold this. The system can not sustain such large amount of leechers. Why is it so hard to understand for you?

What is going through your head to not understand this at all. This is not about races, as you implied yesterday, it’s about the system not being able to sustain people who multiply their numbers and don’t work or have any education.

For many years, public healthcare has been having benefits and this money has been invested in building new hospitals, getting new material in, research, etc. Why? Because 100 worked to maintain 200 who didn’t (unemployed, children, retired, disabled, etc.). Now many healthcare systems are close to bankrupt. Why? Because 100 are working to maintain 2000 and this is not working. This number of leechers is increasing due to high birthrate, but their education level is still very low and many don’t even try to look for a job. There are other causes (baby boom people starting to retire or increase in life expectancy) of course.

Do you understand now? Or should we start with how healthcare works in most European countries and slowly move on from there? Like, how illegal immigrants got free medicines (many Spanish counties are starting to put limits to this to avoid collapse)?

You have NOT have anything similar in Jersey because your education, healthcare and welfare system work much differently. So stop bringing up things that are not related, like “race” or “this is happening all the time in USA” when it’s not.

111

DarkNinjaa, who has to integrate with who? I’m quite sure that the Pakistani, the Chinese, the whatever are the ones who need to integrate, not the other way around.

I got an English Chinese friend. Her friends are a mix of English and Chinese. She works and studies and has a normal life. She has zero issues due to her race (as far I know). She has a nice English accent as well.

You are not disagreeing with what I say anyways.

112

[quote]Edevus wrote:
DarkNinjaa, who has to integrate with who? I’m quite sure that the Pakistani, the Chinese, the whatever are the ones who need to integrate, not the other way around.

[/quote]

Not necessarily. In terms of immigration, its not just a one-way street where the immigrant must assimilate to the host country, but also where the host country must adapt to the influx of immigrants. Nothing in society is simply ONE WAY - when there are a multitude of actors and stakeholders involved, there must be a give and take between all players. Otherwise there will always be conflict and nothing constructive will occur.

113

[quote]Mascherano wrote:
Hm. That’s an interesting view, but faulty in my opinion. The reasons being that:

a) You don’t always “become” a citizen. You are simply born in a “territory” - that’s why the idea citizenry was invented, and birth certificates administered, and passports needed for travel. That territory, the country you are born in, has a constitution and laws and normative customs. You are a citizen of that country, simply for having been born there. You don’t have to adopt any of those customs and values, beliefs, duties, etc. as a citizen of that country - you don’t have to do ANYTHING. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying “Now, be a good Frenchman” (altho, I wouldn’t be surprised if this started happening, considering the arguments you put forth).[/quote]

This is wrong. When you are born in a country, if you get its nationality, you automatically accept both the duties and the rights. You don’t have to adopt the values or beliefs, but you MUST adopt the DUTIES.

Some of the duties that I automatically accepted the moment I was born and it was put on paper are the duty to speak and understand Spanish (plus another language from my area), the duty to protect Spain, the duty to work, preserve the environment, etc.

114

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:
DarkNinjaa, who has to integrate with who? I’m quite sure that the Pakistani, the Chinese, the whatever are the ones who need to integrate, not the other way around.

[/quote]

Not necessarily. In terms of immigration, its not just a one-way street where the immigrant must assimilate to the host country, but also where the host country must adapt to the influx of immigrants. Nothing in society is simply ONE WAY - when there are a multitude of actors and stakeholders involved, there must be a give and take between all players. Otherwise there will always be conflict and nothing constructive will occur.
[/quote]

I disagree. Pretending to impose your own traditions or beliefs in the place where you moved is ridiculous.

I certainly would never do that. I already feel bad enough when a group of people have to switch to English so I can follow the conversation because my language skill is still not good enough.

115

[quote]Edevus wrote:
FightinIrish26, I will say it one more time and not again, because I’m tired of this.

The problem is that the economical system/welfare system of many European countries is NOT prepared to hold this. The system can not sustain such large amount of leechers. Why is it so hard to understand for you?

What is going through your head to not understand this at all. This is not about races, as you implied yesterday, it’s about the system not being able to sustain people who multiply their numbers and don’t work or have any education.

For many years, public healthcare has been having benefits and this money has been invested in building new hospitals, getting new material in, research, etc. Why? Because 100 worked to maintain 200 who didn’t (unemployed, children, retired, disabled, etc.). Now many healthcare systems are close to bankrupt. Why? Because 100 are working to maintain 2000 and this is not working. This number of leechers is increasing due to high birthrate, but their education level is still very low and many don’t even try to look for a job. There are other causes (baby boom people starting to retire or increase in life expectancy) of course.

Do you understand now? Or should we start with how healthcare works in most European countries and slowly move on from there? Like, how illegal immigrants got free medicines (many Spanish counties are starting to put limits to this to avoid collapse)?

You have NOT have anything similar in Jersey because your education, healthcare and welfare system work much differently. So stop bringing up things that are not related, like “race” or “this is happening all the time in USA” when it’s not.

[/quote]

As an American, it is difficult to understand the social system of European countries, as that would require research that is out of my scope of interest right now. But rather than asking if we understand, you should just try to better explicate what you mean and the system itself.

But i do believe I understand the gist of the problem you speak of (assuming you are conveying it correctly, again, I’m not about to verify). Aside from seeing this as a problem of higher a birth rate of these welfare leeches, couldn’t you also say this is a problem is a diminished workforce that can’t sustain the social welfare system? Or perhaps its time to stop making healthcare free and charge folks in the grand ol’ American way?

How do you guys fund your welfare system? Through taxes?

116

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]Mascherano wrote:
Hm. That’s an interesting view, but faulty in my opinion. The reasons being that:

a) You don’t always “become” a citizen. You are simply born in a “territory” - that’s why the idea citizenry was invented, and birth certificates administered, and passports needed for travel. That territory, the country you are born in, has a constitution and laws and normative customs. You are a citizen of that country, simply for having been born there. You don’t have to adopt any of those customs and values, beliefs, duties, etc. as a citizen of that country - you don’t have to do ANYTHING. No one is holding a gun to your head and saying “Now, be a good Frenchman” (altho, I wouldn’t be surprised if this started happening, considering the arguments you put forth).[/quote]

This is wrong. When you are born in a country, if you get its nationality, you automatically accept both the duties and the rights. You don’t have to adopt the values or beliefs, but you MUST adopt the DUTIES.

Some of the duties that I automatically accepted the moment I was born and it was put on paper are the duty to speak and understand Spanish (plus another language from my area), the duty to protect Spain, the duty to work, preserve the environment, etc.

[/quote]

I maintain my position, but for the sake of argument, the question is, then, how should a country enforce the adoption of these duties that are inherent part of one’s nationality? It would be impossible, no? How would you know whether your populace is behaving itself and adopting all these duties?

117

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:
DarkNinjaa, who has to integrate with who? I’m quite sure that the Pakistani, the Chinese, the whatever are the ones who need to integrate, not the other way around.

[/quote]

Not necessarily. In terms of immigration, its not just a one-way street where the immigrant must assimilate to the host country, but also where the host country must adapt to the influx of immigrants. Nothing in society is simply ONE WAY - when there are a multitude of actors and stakeholders involved, there must be a give and take between all players. Otherwise there will always be conflict and nothing constructive will occur.
[/quote]

I disagree. Pretending to impose your own traditions or beliefs in the place where you moved is ridiculous.

I certainly would never do that. I already feel bad enough when a group of people have to switch to English so I can follow the conversation because my language skill is still not good enough.[/quote]

They’re not “imposing” their traditions or beliefs, they’re maintaining them. Do you really believe that once you move to a country you will drop everything you’ve ever known, your entire ideological system, in favor of the one in your host country? That’s illogical. Further, that’s completely detrimental to the health and well-being of an individual.

Society is not simplistic. And perhaps it has been easy for you to adopt the customs and duties of whatever host country you are in, but for many others, it is not so simple.

118

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:
FightinIrish26, I will say it one more time and not again, because I’m tired of this.

The problem is that the economical system/welfare system of many European countries is NOT prepared to hold this. The system can not sustain such large amount of leechers. Why is it so hard to understand for you?

What is going through your head to not understand this at all. This is not about races, as you implied yesterday, it’s about the system not being able to sustain people who multiply their numbers and don’t work or have any education.

For many years, public healthcare has been having benefits and this money has been invested in building new hospitals, getting new material in, research, etc. Why? Because 100 worked to maintain 200 who didn’t (unemployed, children, retired, disabled, etc.). Now many healthcare systems are close to bankrupt. Why? Because 100 are working to maintain 2000 and this is not working. This number of leechers is increasing due to high birthrate, but their education level is still very low and many don’t even try to look for a job. There are other causes (baby boom people starting to retire or increase in life expectancy) of course.

Do you understand now? Or should we start with how healthcare works in most European countries and slowly move on from there? Like, how illegal immigrants got free medicines (many Spanish counties are starting to put limits to this to avoid collapse)?

You have NOT have anything similar in Jersey because your education, healthcare and welfare system work much differently. So stop bringing up things that are not related, like “race” or “this is happening all the time in USA” when it’s not.

[/quote]

As an American, it is difficult to understand the social system of European countries, as that would require research that is out of my scope of interest right now. But rather than asking if we understand, you should just try to better explicate what you mean and the system itself.

But i do believe I understand the gist of the problem you speak of (assuming you are conveying it correctly, again, I’m not about to verify). Aside from seeing this as a problem of higher a birth rate of these welfare leeches, couldn’t you also say this is a problem is a diminished workforce that can’t sustain the social welfare system? Or perhaps its time to stop making healthcare free and charge folks in the grand ol’ American way?

How do you guys fund your welfare system? Through taxes?
[/quote]

I’ll try to give a quick review of how Spanish welfare system works, but your last lines are right on spot.

A Spanish worker receives two different deductions from its salary, IRPF (Taxes) and SS (Social Security). The IRPF part is variable, depending the salary, social situation (children, etc.) and other values and it goes from 0% to 43%. We’ll forget about this now.
Then we have the SS value, which is fixed (if I remember correctly at 4.7%-5.6%) and this money goes to fund the SS. Then the company also has to pay to SS depending the salary of the worker. I think this value was around 22%.

This SS money goes, mostly, to fund the healthcare system.

In theory, this should work as follows. If I’m worker or I’m maintained by a worker (non-working wife, children, retired parents, etc.) I got the right to “free” healthcare. So I can go for free to the doctor as many times as I want. I also got free specialists, which includes psychologists, but not dentists.
The medicines get a discount (50% I think it was) and this remaining 50% is paid by the healthcare system. So, all this doctors, medicines discounts, etc. is paid by this SS money.

What was the worry? That the population was aging and the workforce started to diminish and, while the health system economy was in great state, it was better to add more taxpayers. Also, we had the “boom” of building which required tons of workforce, so the doors were open wide for immigrants.

What happened? First, too many came. It’s not that many men came, it’s that it was probably not expected that for every man, there would be a wife, lots of children, cousins, parents, etc. Secondly, their integration, for any reason, was not as good as expected and not all started to work. Some did great (Chinese, Turkish, Romanians, etc.) but some others, mostly Africans, due to poor education, got stuck and were thrown into poverty…with lots of children to feed.

What happens? The population ages, lives longer and all those “taxpayers” that were expected, have become people that need to be supported.

Throwing some random numbers now, Spain had 100 workers to support 200 non-workers and the idea was to end with 250 workers to support 350 non-workers (mostly, all those people born in the 50s and 60s and that will retire soon), but due to different things, now we got 150 workers supporting 700 non-workers.

It didn’t work and the system that was supposed to be very nice, is being abused and milked. A guy without education or job is having tons of children. These children are coming to this world in public hospitals, attended by doctors and nurses. Then they get free baby bottles, diapers, medicines and medical attention. And the guy is not working.

The system was designed to get an influx of immigrants, who would quickly take jobs and have children that they could sustain…but it didn’t work.
And now the local governments need to backpedal and start blocking the support because they can’t afford it.

I hope you can understand now. There’s lots of immigrants in Spain who work very hard and they marry with Spanish people or with their own, but they send their children to school and do their best. These guys are most welcome, really. But the ones who just don’t do anything outnumber them and this has to be stopped somehow.

119

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:
DarkNinjaa, who has to integrate with who? I’m quite sure that the Pakistani, the Chinese, the whatever are the ones who need to integrate, not the other way around.

[/quote]

Not necessarily. In terms of immigration, its not just a one-way street where the immigrant must assimilate to the host country, but also where the host country must adapt to the influx of immigrants. Nothing in society is simply ONE WAY - when there are a multitude of actors and stakeholders involved, there must be a give and take between all players. Otherwise there will always be conflict and nothing constructive will occur.
[/quote]

I disagree. Pretending to impose your own traditions or beliefs in the place where you moved is ridiculous.

I certainly would never do that. I already feel bad enough when a group of people have to switch to English so I can follow the conversation because my language skill is still not good enough.[/quote]

They’re not “imposing” their traditions or beliefs, they’re maintaining them. Do you really believe that once you move to a country you will drop everything you’ve ever known, your entire ideological system, in favor of the one in your host country? That’s illogical. Further, that’s completely detrimental to the health and well-being of an individual.

Society is not simplistic. And perhaps it has been easy for you to adopt the customs and duties of whatever host country you are in, but for many others, it is not so simple.

[/quote]

Depends on which kind of traditions or beliefs we’re talking though.
You don’t have to forget everything you know, but you have to understand that X, Y or Z is not welcome in this new country and you are like a guest, so you respect the rules of the host.

120

[quote]Edevus wrote:
FightinIrish26, I will say it one more time and not again, because I’m tired of this.

The problem is that the economical system/welfare system of many European countries is NOT prepared to hold this. The system can not sustain such large amount of leechers. Why is it so hard to understand for you?

What is going through your head to not understand this at all. This is not about races, as you implied yesterday, it’s about the system not being able to sustain people who multiply their numbers and don’t work or have any education.

For many years, public healthcare has been having benefits and this money has been invested in building new hospitals, getting new material in, research, etc. Why? Because 100 worked to maintain 200 who didn’t (unemployed, children, retired, disabled, etc.). Now many healthcare systems are close to bankrupt. Why? Because 100 are working to maintain 2000 and this is not working. This number of leechers is increasing due to high birthrate, but their education level is still very low and many don’t even try to look for a job. There are other causes (baby boom people starting to retire or increase in life expectancy) of course.

Do you understand now? Or should we start with how healthcare works in most European countries and slowly move on from there? Like, how illegal immigrants got free medicines (many Spanish counties are starting to put limits to this to avoid collapse)?

You have NOT have anything similar in Jersey because your education, healthcare and welfare system work much differently. So stop bringing up things that are not related, like “race” or “this is happening all the time in USA” when it’s not.
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LOL. I love how you switch back and forth complaining about immigrants for one reason, and then jump right back to “No, I’m talking about the welfare system!”

That’s funny, cause you mentioned crime and urban decay as well. You’re not just talking about the welfare state system, you’re talking about numerous things but you don’t even realize it.

Like I said, you clearly have underlying issues with immigrants. I don’t care about your own background, there’s something in you that makes you fear this whole thing, and not just the collapse of your welfare state either.

But do what you like man. You are the old guard. You will have to adapt, xenophobia and all.