Bastille Day

Off Topic
121

I really dislike strawman arguments. My argument has always revolved about immigrants who leech and don’t help. My issues have never been with working immigrants (like my mother). YOU keep mixing it up to attack me and not my arguments.

You are totally missing how everything is related. Crime, poverty, decay and welfare system troubles.

So, let’s be constructive. What would you do with immigrants who ghetto themselves, don’t work, but leech resources from the rest?

I’ll give you my solution : Very strong focus on the education and formation of their children, so in 10-20 years, those kids will be ready to work and get away from poverty.

122

[quote]Edevus wrote:
I really dislike strawman arguments. My argument has always revolved about immigrants who leech and don’t help. My issues have never been with working immigrants (like my mother). YOU keep mixing it up to attack me and not my arguments.

You are totally missing how everything is related. Crime, poverty, decay and welfare system troubles.

So, let’s be constructive. What would you do with immigrants who ghetto themselves, don’t work, but leech resources from the rest?

I’ll give you my solution : Very strong focus on the education and formation of their children, so in 10-20 years, those kids will be ready to work and get away from poverty.

[/quote]

Hahah. I’m totally missing it? I think not. But whatever you say.

I’m not going to bother with someone who can’t keep their own argument straight.

123

[quote]Edevus wrote:
DarkNinjaa, who has to integrate with who? I’m quite sure that the Pakistani, the Chinese, the whatever are the ones who need to integrate, not the other way around.
[/quote]

Please, tell me, why do you assume/think/believe this?

124

[quote]Edevus wrote:

I disagree. Pretending to impose your own traditions or beliefs in the place where you moved is ridiculous.
[/quote]

Please, can you provide concrete examples where this sort of behaviour is happening?

[quote]Edevus wrote:
Depends on which kind of traditions or beliefs we’re talking though[/quote]

And what are they?

125

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

If i’m correct, the US will hand out visas to foreigners to come and work and study here - but to become a a citizen, or legal alien, you most likely have to marry an American.
[/quote]

No, those with green cards are the legal aliens. To become a citizen you must go through the naturalization process, which I believe means you have to live in the country for a set amount of years and take tests relating to American civics, etc.

It is a difficult road I have heard, but it is possible.[/quote]

5 years as a greencard holder. An interview. A civics test. An English test. And finally the swearing in ceremony. It’s not that difficult if you are married to a US citizen. You’re pretty much a shoe in after 5 years as a greencard holder.

Although I am currently eligible, due to my country of origin not allowing dual citizenship (your citizenship is revoked upon taking on another country’s citizenship), I choose to remain a legal permanent resident.

126

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:
I really dislike strawman arguments. My argument has always revolved about immigrants who leech and don’t help. My issues have never been with working immigrants (like my mother). YOU keep mixing it up to attack me and not my arguments.

You are totally missing how everything is related. Crime, poverty, decay and welfare system troubles.

So, let’s be constructive. What would you do with immigrants who ghetto themselves, don’t work, but leech resources from the rest?

I’ll give you my solution : Very strong focus on the education and formation of their children, so in 10-20 years, those kids will be ready to work and get away from poverty.

[/quote]

Hahah. I’m totally missing it? I think not. But whatever you say.

I’m not going to bother with someone who can’t keep their own argument straight.[/quote]

Oh my…but at least I have an argument! You have NO argument at all. Your arguing consists in a constant mix of strawman argument and ad hominem attacks. It’s always the same.
“You are a xenophobe that hates all immigrants. I’ll go ahead and ignore that you are talking about those who leech. Also, this is happening all the time in USA, you are just not used to it. I will now ignore the fact that the welfare system works differently, that USA has no self-identity at all, that no culture is at risk. You ask me how to deal with this? I will just ignore those because I have no answer, I’ll just keep calling you xenophobe and say that this is happening in USA since always”.

That’s your “argument”, ignore everything I say, give no solutions, no input, no mention that you understand what we are talking about. Look at DN or Mascherano, that’s how you approach a discussion from a mature and intelligent point of view. But well, I’ve already clashed with you in the past in some other thread and it was pretty much the same. This speaks very loud of your intelligence, not of mine.

127

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:
DarkNinjaa, who has to integrate with who? I’m quite sure that the Pakistani, the Chinese, the whatever are the ones who need to integrate, not the other way around.
[/quote]

Please, tell me, why do you assume/think/believe this?

Please, can you provide concrete examples where this sort of behaviour is happening?

And what are they?
[/quote]

(I’m mixing your two posts) Because it’s the logical thing. A country has a history, a tradition, a culture. If the country has to adapt to the foreigners, where does all this go? Nowhere, it will disappear, vanish.

I remember reading you can understand many languages, is Spanish one of them? Because I can try to dig news of muslim communities applying their own laws in Spanish territory, in example. In some little towns in Catalunya, where the population is almost 50/50, they want to impose the Sharian Law in the town (legally, they can’t obviously). Then we can also use google translate and it should work to get a general idea.

I mention muslim because when it comes to religions, is when there tend to be more cultural clashes. Some community was complaining because in Spanish history the “Reconquista” is taught and it portrays the moors as the bad guys (…) and there were issues in some other small town and the role of the women, since some “lord” wanted all women to stop working.

It’s not hard to find plenty of news like this for Spain.

I’m an atheist and I oppose the public part of all religions. Having to adapt to any of them is annoying for me. Catholic church has way too much influence in society to now have another religion trying to impose its means. Minarets in the mosques so they can sing at 6 am? No thanks. Church bells ringing at 8 is already annoying enough.

Religion? At home and in private, please.

128

Okay, I understand your argument regarding this. I asked the question because I wanted to bring in another example to contradict you but I’d wait until I have a look at your links.

If you can find those articles or videos, great. I understand Spanish :slight_smile:

I just hope it’s not some made up stories by the Spanish news… ehhe, sorry! I’m judging already even before looking at it. Haha!!

A couple of years ago, or last year, I remember reading and watching similar news regarding a Swiss town voting against the building of minarets by the Muslim community leaving there.

But is this really imposing traditions on the indigenous community? Or is it just the noise that’ll bother the residents? Or is it mainly the refusal to see a Muslim way of life develop/ grow in an already occidental town?

Hell, the Muslims are not asking or forcing the settled community there to come and pray to the mosque, are they? So, I don’t really see this as imposing one’s culture on someone. A Buddisht community could settle there too, and I think that as long as they follow their religion without obliging the natives into living the way they do, there wouldn’t be any problem at all.

To me integrating as a foreigner, is learning the language, work, respect the laws and duties of the host country. I doesn’t mean that because I 've got strong beliefs I need to change them to please the hosts. I could be a Muslim, Christian, Atheist, Judaist, Shintoist, etc… and still follow the rules of the land. I still don’t understand how opening Mosques or synagogues is imposing one’s religion or culture on others.

Now if you say and prove to me, there’re are some Muslim communities wanting to force the indigenous Europeans residents into abiding to Sharia law, then I’d agree with you.

[quote]Edevus Wrote:
A country has a history, a tradition, a culture. If the country has to adapt to the foreigners, where does all this go? Nowhere, it will disappear, vanish. [/quote]

Okay that confuses me. Why exactly do you think that? Why shouldn’t country adapt to the foreigners according to you? Have you got any proof that the country will disappear an vanish? That cannot be possible, unless the settlers let it happen, in my humble opinion.

FightingIrish, Masch and I have been saying it is nothing new. It’s been going on for decades and many countries have/are surviving immigration. Their cultures and way of lives are mostly still the same. Overall,-- I’m not talking about towns, but mainly the whole country – the indigenous population is still on higher percentage than the immigrants. No?

129

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]Otep wrote:

I think the international standard of legal immigration is to accept people with skills your economy needs and can’t provide endogenously, and people from friendly neighbor states in certain numbers held to a point where they won’t affect the societal status quo.

How would you change it?[/quote]

That’s actually a pretty good summation. Altho I’m unclear on what you mean by “and people from friendly neighbor states in certain numbers held to a point where they won’t affect the societal status quo.”

[/quote]

For example, I know that, as an American, I don’t need a visa to legally enter a bunch of the US’s main trading partners, places like SKorea, Singapore, Malaysia, Canada. If a million of us (Americans) try to enter, I’ll bet you they’ll start requiring us to have visas and then limiting the number of those they give out. Singapore has like, seven million people. If twelve percent suddenly became Americans (a million Americans arriving) that would ‘affect the societal status quo’.

I disagree with the rest of your post, because it seems to argue that people should circumvent the system by overstaying their visas in order to continue working/living locally (in the US). Immigration isn’t for the benefits of non-citizens. Its a mutually beneficial contract between the government and a citizen of a foreign power.

Though I do think the State Department should be more efficient in processing its own damn paperwork.

130

Okay ~

It’s settled then,

the US will Invade Canada to free them of their oppressive government.

fully integrate the US system with thiers.

and bask in their misery.

glad we were able to clear that up~

131

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:
I really dislike strawman arguments. My argument has always revolved about immigrants who leech and don’t help. My issues have never been with working immigrants (like my mother). YOU keep mixing it up to attack me and not my arguments.

You are totally missing how everything is related. Crime, poverty, decay and welfare system troubles.

So, let’s be constructive. What would you do with immigrants who ghetto themselves, don’t work, but leech resources from the rest?

I’ll give you my solution : Very strong focus on the education and formation of their children, so in 10-20 years, those kids will be ready to work and get away from poverty.

[/quote]

Hahah. I’m totally missing it? I think not. But whatever you say.

I’m not going to bother with someone who can’t keep their own argument straight.[/quote]

Oh my…but at least I have an argument! You have NO argument at all. Your arguing consists in a constant mix of strawman argument and ad hominem attacks. It’s always the same.
“You are a xenophobe that hates all immigrants. I’ll go ahead and ignore that you are talking about those who leech. Also, this is happening all the time in USA, you are just not used to it. I will now ignore the fact that the welfare system works differently, that USA has no self-identity at all, that no culture is at risk. You ask me how to deal with this? I will just ignore those because I have no answer, I’ll just keep calling you xenophobe and say that this is happening in USA since always”.

That’s your “argument”, ignore everything I say, give no solutions, no input, no mention that you understand what we are talking about. Look at DN or Mascherano, that’s how you approach a discussion from a mature and intelligent point of view. But well, I’ve already clashed with you in the past in some other thread and it was pretty much the same. This speaks very loud of your intelligence, not of mine.

[/quote]

My point is that you either adapt or you disappear. There’s not really any argument to be had here - just you complaining.

I don’t argue with children.

132

…and this thread continues to evade the PWI forum. How the holy heck?

This “discussion” makes me want to bash the “discussers’” heads together. I can see where each side is coming from and can see the merit of their viewpoints but the way and the tone they go about discussing it makes certain ones come across as total assholes…

I guess I wouldn’t survive a day in PWI. Thank God I hardly ever set foot in there.

133

I’m actually just coming out of my Bastille Day binge…

134

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:
I really dislike strawman arguments. My argument has always revolved about immigrants who leech and don’t help. My issues have never been with working immigrants (like my mother). YOU keep mixing it up to attack me and not my arguments.

You are totally missing how everything is related. Crime, poverty, decay and welfare system troubles.

So, let’s be constructive. What would you do with immigrants who ghetto themselves, don’t work, but leech resources from the rest?

I’ll give you my solution : Very strong focus on the education and formation of their children, so in 10-20 years, those kids will be ready to work and get away from poverty.

[/quote]

Hahah. I’m totally missing it? I think not. But whatever you say.

I’m not going to bother with someone who can’t keep their own argument straight.[/quote]

Oh my…but at least I have an argument! You have NO argument at all. Your arguing consists in a constant mix of strawman argument and ad hominem attacks. It’s always the same.
“You are a xenophobe that hates all immigrants. I’ll go ahead and ignore that you are talking about those who leech. Also, this is happening all the time in USA, you are just not used to it. I will now ignore the fact that the welfare system works differently, that USA has no self-identity at all, that no culture is at risk. You ask me how to deal with this? I will just ignore those because I have no answer, I’ll just keep calling you xenophobe and say that this is happening in USA since always”.

That’s your “argument”, ignore everything I say, give no solutions, no input, no mention that you understand what we are talking about. Look at DN or Mascherano, that’s how you approach a discussion from a mature and intelligent point of view. But well, I’ve already clashed with you in the past in some other thread and it was pretty much the same. This speaks very loud of your intelligence, not of mine.

[/quote]

My point is that you either adapt or you disappear. There’s not really any argument to be had here - just you complaining.

I don’t argue with children.
[/quote]

As I was saying, ad hominem attacks galore.

I’ve grown too tired of this discussion, in part thanks to you, mr. ad-hominem, but I thank Mascherano and DN for the polite and educated arguing.

135


guyz…I’m telling you~

136

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
They wouldn’t take the handout if it wasn’t being handed to them.

[/quote]

BING FUCKING GO

Edevus, have you ever lived in France or do you only based your arguments on videos or articles you’ve seen/read?[/quote]

No, but I have lived pretty much all my life in a city that is slowly turning into this.
Kamui can give more detailed information about Paris than I do.

I can tell you about my old city and how some neighbourhoods are decaying at a very fast rate, since they become a spot for drug dealing. People move out, prices pummel down, poor people move in, area decays and becomes dirty and unsafe.
Old random criminals get quickly replaced by more organized and dangerous bands.

But, I really can’t tell you more. I will probably not convince any of you. You would have to see all this with your own eyes and see how areas were before this.

Of course there are natives that are poor and/or criminals. Many, for sure, but they don’t have lots of children, ghetto themselves, etc.
[/quote]

What makes me laugh is that you think we must “see this with our own eyes” - as if we have no idea what’s going on, and are so naive to think that it isn’t.

I’m from New Jersey man. We seen this happen a million times, it just happened 60-70 years ago in Newark and Paterson. We watched it happen in New York City, where some neighborhoods in the early 60s went from being all Italian and Irish to 80 percent black and Hispanic INSIDE FIVE YEARS.

[/quote]

^ damn, how old are you?

137

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
The July 14, 1789 storming of the Bastille - the French fortress where political prisoners were held during the reign of King Louis XVI - was the flashpoint of the French Revolution and one of the most glorious moments in all of human history. It’s a day that’s not remembered as it should be - the French citizens following in our footsteps, and abolishing their monarchy forever.

Happy Bastille Day.[/quote]

We need another one. But this time we’ll use gats.

138

[quote]postholedigger wrote:
…and this thread continues to evade the PWI forum. How the holy heck?

This “discussion” makes me want to bash the “discussers’” heads together. I can see where each side is coming from and can see the merit of their viewpoints but the way and the tone they go about discussing it makes certain ones come across as total assholes…

I guess I wouldn’t survive a day in PWI. Thank God I hardly ever set foot in there.[/quote]

If you are referring to me, I honed my style in that politics forum over the past five years. I have more of a leeway to this character because he seems sincere but my patience has limits.

You would not last long if I offended you with posts in this particular thread.

139

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
Now if you say and prove to me, there’re are some Muslim communities wanting to force the indigenous Europeans residents into abiding to Sharia law, then I’d agree with you.
[/quote]

I am not going to do a research but I am pretty sure it happened a couple of years ago in ontario. Of course they didn’t let them but still.

140

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]postholedigger wrote:
…and this thread continues to evade the PWI forum. How the holy heck?

This “discussion” makes me want to bash the “discussers’” heads together. I can see where each side is coming from and can see the merit of their viewpoints but the way and the tone they go about discussing it makes certain ones come across as total assholes…

I guess I wouldn’t survive a day in PWI. Thank God I hardly ever set foot in there.[/quote]

If you are referring to me, I honed my style in that politics forum over the past five years. I have more of a leeway to this character because he seems sincere but my patience has limits.

You would not last long if I offended you with posts in this particular thread.[/quote]

I was, in part, referring to you but hey, it takes two to tango, right? “Honing your style” is kinda a lofty way to describe your “craft” isn’t it? It’s kinda like taking a shit and calling it “shaping an excrement” Isn’t there a way you could agree to disagree on this topic and stop before resorting to ad hominem argumentation? You didn’t offend me but lets just say I don’t enjoy watching people take a shit either.