Bastille Day

Off Topic
61

[quote]jasmincar wrote:
Edevus is right. Before defending the immigration policy of a foreign country you should have been there and seen it. Immigrants are turning this country which in my eyes has something very special into crap.

French people have all the rights to prevent the kind of immigration that directly affect the collective happiness.

You do understand that they are way more in number than us? If one can come here and profit of the wealth, why not the other 10 of his family? Hey lets completely switch population.
[/quote]

Hahahah. You guys seriously amaze me.

THE SAME FUCKING THING HAS BEEN SAID ABOUT EVERY SINGLE GROUP TO EVER COME TO AMERICA.

I don’t know what to tell you… this has all been done here. We don’t have a problem. Looks like you’re just going to have to get used to seeing non-white people, killer though it may be.

It’s pretty safe to say that imperialism fucked up their countries, sorry to say bud.

62

[quote]jasmincar wrote:
Edevus is right. Before defending the immigration policy of a foreign country you should have been there and seen it. Immigrants are turning this country which in my eyes has something very special into crap.

French people have all the rights to prevent the kind of immigration that directly affect the collective happiness.

You do understand that they are way more in number than us? If one can come here and profit of the wealth, why not the other 10 of his family? Hey lets completely switch population.

Also saying that they are poor because of past imperialism (our fault) is just not true.

[/quote]

Hm. Interesting. I’ll have to look into this. You say their Algerians?

And I’m not saying that they’re poor BECAUSE of imperialism, i’m saying that imperialism set forth a lot of the problems that they face today, poverty being one of them.

Anyways, it is interesting. How about reparations to Algeria? Maybe giving some money back might sweeten the deal once they get kicked out. lol! that’s not even funny btw.

63

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]jasmincar wrote:
Edevus is right. Before defending the immigration policy of a foreign country you should have been there and seen it. Immigrants are turning this country which in my eyes has something very special into crap.

French people have all the rights to prevent the kind of immigration that directly affect the collective happiness.

You do understand that they are way more in number than us? If one can come here and profit of the wealth, why not the other 10 of his family? Hey lets completely switch population.

Also saying that they are poor because of past imperialism (our fault) is just not true.

[/quote]

Hm. Interesting. I’ll have to look into this. You say their Algerians?

And I’m not saying that they’re poor BECAUSE of imperialism, i’m saying that imperialism set forth a lot of the problems that they face today, poverty being one of them.

Anyways, it is interesting. How about reparations to Algeria? Maybe giving some money back might sweeten the deal once they get kicked out. lol! that’s not even funny btw.

[/quote]

There are of course the problems of not having had imperialism, like no common language, no system of law, no infrastructure…

But, they are all perfectly welcome to reject that, I am not judging.

All they have to do is embrace subsistence agriculture, high child mortality and a life expectancy of 27 and they are golden.

Sort of.

64

[quote]orion wrote:

There are of course the problems of not having had imperialism, like no common language, no system of law, no infrastructure…

But, they are all perfectly welcome to reject that, I am not judging.

All they have to do is embrace subsistence agriculture, high child mortality and a life expectancy of 27 and they are golden.

Sort of.

[/quote]

Please name me one country where NOT having had imperialism turned out to be a bad thing. lol!

I’m going to think of one too…hang on.

65

Having worked in the hotel industry and now in casinos…people who move here and refuse to learn our language or integrate in any way need to go back to where they came from. I am not learning 5 different languages because they refuse to learn one. If you move from the PRC to Chinatown in any major U.S. city, what’s the friggin’ point? Isn’t the point of moving here to get AWAY from China? Why move to a place that just replicates it?

66

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

There are of course the problems of not having had imperialism, like no common language, no system of law, no infrastructure…

But, they are all perfectly welcome to reject that, I am not judging.

All they have to do is embrace subsistence agriculture, high child mortality and a life expectancy of 27 and they are golden.

Sort of.

[/quote]

Please name me one country where NOT having had imperialism turned out to be a bad thing. lol!

I’m going to think of one too…hang on.
[/quote]

Its kind of hard to find one, since European nation managed to conquer pretty much the whole world while still bashing each others heads in.

It is interesting to note that most Asian nations managed to absorb European influences, while the rest did not even have the cultural framework to do that.

So sorry, but a lot of African nations are better off for having being conquered, not worse.

Of course, there might be people around who think that they would be better of with working the ground with a stick, which is what they very often literally do, but that means glorifying the experience of man untainted by European culture.

And I am being dead serious when I say that they are perfectly free to reject European influences, bur they should be prepared to return to an existence without these influences.

Subsistence agriculture, tribalism, shamanic “medicine”, family vendettas, roughly 4000 languages on the whole continent which have no more in common than Spanish and Finnish and that is from one village to the next.

I am devastated that we kind of conquered them as an afterthought, but of they could have done the same to us, they would have, but if your crowning achievement is the mud hut, you kind of cant.

67

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
THE SAME FUCKING THING HAS BEEN SAID ABOUT EVERY SINGLE GROUP TO EVER COME TO AMERICA.
[/quote]

I’m with you, to a certain extent. I, and most Americans, are huge fans of legal immigration. Legal immigrants have respect for American laws and authority, and we can set standards and quotas for who we want to let in based on what skills and abilities they bring to the table.

It took America a while to think of this. Meantime, the Irish and Slavs came over. Which is to say, they were legal immigrants.

But your idea that, since things turned out pretty alright with the Irish and the Slavs (and the Czechs, and the Chinese, and the…) then things will always turn out pretty alright is stupid. It says there’s no need for an immigration policy. Please tell me this isn’t what you’re saying.

The American problem isn’t about white people not liking reggaeton, its about them not liking a hispanic mob tearing down their local post-office’s flag and putting up a Mexican one, its about a hospital in Dallas, about 340 miles from the US-Mexico border, where 70% of babies delivered are to illegal immigrants, its about immigrants turning Phoenix into the city with the highest kidnapping rate in the US.

There should be no permissiveness about immigration when shit like this happens.

And uh… go Bastille day? Viva Libertad?

68

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]jasmincar wrote:
Edevus is right. Before defending the immigration policy of a foreign country you should have been there and seen it. Immigrants are turning this country which in my eyes has something very special into crap.

French people have all the rights to prevent the kind of immigration that directly affect the collective happiness.

You do understand that they are way more in number than us? If one can come here and profit of the wealth, why not the other 10 of his family? Hey lets completely switch population.
[/quote]

Hahahah. You guys seriously amaze me.

THE SAME FUCKING THING HAS BEEN SAID ABOUT EVERY SINGLE GROUP TO EVER COME TO AMERICA.

I don’t know what to tell you… this has all been done here. We don’t have a problem. Looks like you’re just going to have to get used to seeing non-white people, killer though it may be.

It’s pretty safe to say that imperialism fucked up their countries, sorry to say bud. [/quote]

I’ve got the feeling that it’s working different for you for different reasons. I think that it’s related to the social security system and the welfare. In Denmark, 2.5% of the population is immigrant and they use 40% of the welfare money. Do you think this kind of system can be sustained? What will happen when they are not 2.5%, but 5%? Because it will happen soon, due to their out of control birthrate.

Keep in mind that I’m always talking about those who don’t work, don’t learn, don’t do anything. There are too many. Someone mentioned the Chinese. In Spain, they don’t really integrate much and they barely speak Spanish, but man, these guys work a lot. They open new business all over the place and you know what? This is very good. I applaud their will and effort.

Mascherano, I come from a somewhat small city in Spain (half million people) and there are already neighbourhoods that are “off limits”. They weren’t 10-15 years ago, but many immigrants are located there now. They fall into poverty and the area deteriorates quickly. Some of them try to find a job, integrate somehow, and move out. But the vast majority doesn’t and they are stuck there, having children, leeching from the social security system and not contributing at all. Their children will be born poor, without any idea of where they live, with very little hopes for the future and the cycle will continue. The burden on the social security system increases and increases (Spanish health system is close to bankrupt already) and one day it will collapse. Then what?

69

[quote]
Anyways, it is interesting. How about reparations to Algeria?[/quote]

reparation for what exactly ? the roads, the schools, the towns, the hospitals, the mosques, the factories, the ships, the forages, the full french citizenhsip algerians were given under french rule ?

maybe we should do it the american way : just (re-)invade it to seek and destroy terrorists.

70

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
The July 14, 1789 storming of the Bastille - the French fortress where political prisoners were held during the reign of King Louis XVI - was the flashpoint of the French Revolution and one of the most glorious moments in all of human history. It’s a day that’s not remembered as it should be - the French citizens following in our footsteps, and abolishing their monarchy forever.

Happy Bastille Day.[/quote]

Ah yes, what a surprise that someone would celebrate killing a Christian King and being rebellious. [/quote]

What does the “Christian king” have to do with anything? Christian my ass, they built great halls while the people starved.

You’re catholic. Everyone has caught on by now. We get it. Back to the dungeons with you also, I think there are some gays for you to bash somewhere.[/quote]

A man arrives at the gates of Heaven.

St. Peter asks, “Religion?”

“Methodist,” the man says.

St. Peter looks down his list, and says, “Go to Room 24, but be very quiet as you pass Room 8.”

Another man arrives at the gates of Heaven.

“Religion?”

“Baptist.”

“Go to Room 18, but be very quiet as you pass Room 8.”

A third man arrives at the gates.

“Religion?”

“Jewish.”

“Go to Room 11, but be very quiet as you pass Room 8.”

The man says, “I can understand there being different rooms for different religions, but why must we all be quiet when we pass Room 8?”

“Well, the Catholics are in Room 8,” St. Peter replies, “and they think they’re the only ones here.”

71

[quote]kamui wrote:

[quote]
Anyways, it is interesting. How about reparations to Algeria?[/quote]

reparation for what exactly ? the roads, the schools, the towns, the hospitals, the mosques, the factories, the ships, the forages, the full french citizenhsip algerians were given under french rule ?

maybe we should do it the american way : just (re-)invade it to seek and destroy terrorists. [/quote]

LOL! First the US has never had colonies in which to re-invade. And second, we only invade other countries to give them freedom, silly. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

And all those things France supposedly gave Algeria that you mention, aren’t “reparations.” They’re simply the infrastructure France put in place in order to maintain their colony - not without a lot of bloodshed, mind you.

Anyways, that’s neither here nor there, Kamul.

BUT, what is interesting, is that, and as you have just alluded, and as I have just read, these parisien ghettos and their third generation immigrants “are the descendants of Algerian, Moroccan and Tunisian workers who came from France’s ex-colonies.”

In other words, they arrived in France LEGALLY! Oh dear, that is quite a conundrum…

From what I understand though, the issue is partly due to the fact that France hadn’t set up a good system to absorb all these immigrants. And these immigrants didn’t choose to live in the ghettos, per se, but due to French policy and these SAINAs, they were pushed into the ghettos. That sort of changes the story here a little, wouldn’t you say?

Someone enlighten me, if i’m wrong.

Edit: I realize that I’m conflating colonialism and imperialism in some of my posts. But they’re like kissing cousins, in my opinion.

72

[quote]Edevus wrote:

I’ve got the feeling that it’s working different for you for different reasons. I think that it’s related to the social security system and the welfare. In Denmark, 2.5% of the population is immigrant and they use 40% of the welfare money. Do you think this kind of system can be sustained? What will happen when they are not 2.5%, but 5%? Because it will happen soon, due to their out of control birthrate.

Keep in mind that I’m always talking about those who don’t work, don’t learn, don’t do anything. There are too many. Someone mentioned the Chinese. In Spain, they don’t really integrate much and they barely speak Spanish, but man, these guys work a lot. They open new business all over the place and you know what? This is very good. I applaud their will and effort.

Mascherano, I come from a somewhat small city in Spain (half million people) and there are already neighbourhoods that are “off limits”. They weren’t 10-15 years ago, but many immigrants are located there now. They fall into poverty and the area deteriorates quickly. Some of them try to find a job, integrate somehow, and move out. But the vast majority doesn’t and they are stuck there, having children, leeching from the social security system and not contributing at all. Their children will be born poor, without any idea of where they live, with very little hopes for the future and the cycle will continue. The burden on the social security system increases and increases (Spanish health system is close to bankrupt already) and one day it will collapse. Then what?

[/quote]

I just want to say up front that while I’ve read a book or two on US immigration, I’ve never really paid attention to European immigration, so this is really fascinating to me. I’m also completely oblivious.

That said, and i think similarly to France, the issue, again, is not with immigration, but with poverty. I mean, you say it your self, “Their children will be born poor, without any idea of where they live, with very little hopes for the future and the cycle will continue.” THIS is the travesty in and of itself!

How can you maintain a vibrant economic and social system if a large portion of your fledgling population has been ostracized from it? Its great that you have social services that keep them healthy and housed, but what about other services that educate these people about what it is to be a spaniard - where’s their “buy-in”, so to speak.

73

[quote]orion wrote:

Its kind of hard to find one, since European nation managed to conquer pretty much the whole world while still bashing each others heads in.

It is interesting to note that most Asian nations managed to absorb European influences, while the rest did not even have the cultural framework to do that.

So sorry, but a lot of African nations are better off for having being conquered, not worse.

Of course, there might be people around who think that they would be better of with working the ground with a stick, which is what they very often literally do, but that means glorifying the experience of man untainted by European culture.

And I am being dead serious when I say that they are perfectly free to reject European influences, bur they should be prepared to return to an existence without these influences.

Subsistence agriculture, tribalism, shamanic “medicine”, family vendettas, roughly 4000 languages on the whole continent which have no more in common than Spanish and Finnish and that is from one village to the next.

I am devastated that we kind of conquered them as an afterthought, but of they could have done the same to us, they would have, but if your crowning achievement is the mud hut, you kind of cant.

[/quote]

That’s interesting. I can’t even imagine what the world would even look like without the hand of imperialism. Altho, I do believe there are still one or two tribes that exist untouched down in the Amazon. BBC did a show on them with these two English guys. HAHAH!

I highly doubt, btw, that any of these “savage nations” would have been able to do the same to us. Exactly as you say, their crowning achievement is the mud hut (and I’m sure, a very robust and elaborate ideological system) - you’d need to have the means to conquer, like ships and navigation, and the resources to put amass all of that, as well as the even the want to do it!

Clans and a self sustained ideological system generally don’t make for good imperialism. lol!

74

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

A man arrives at the gates of Heaven.

St. Peter asks, “Religion?”

“Methodist,” the man says.

St. Peter looks down his list, and says, “Go to Room 24, but be very quiet as you pass Room 8.”

Another man arrives at the gates of Heaven.

“Religion?”

“Baptist.”

“Go to Room 18, but be very quiet as you pass Room 8.”

A third man arrives at the gates.

“Religion?”

“Jewish.”

“Go to Room 11, but be very quiet as you pass Room 8.”

The man says, “I can understand there being different rooms for different religions, but why must we all be quiet when we pass Room 8?”

“Well, the Catholics are in Room 8,” St. Peter replies, “and they think they’re the only ones here.”
[/quote]

Consider that well and truly stolen.

75

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:

I’ve got the feeling that it’s working different for you for different reasons. I think that it’s related to the social security system and the welfare. In Denmark, 2.5% of the population is immigrant and they use 40% of the welfare money. Do you think this kind of system can be sustained? What will happen when they are not 2.5%, but 5%? Because it will happen soon, due to their out of control birthrate.

Keep in mind that I’m always talking about those who don’t work, don’t learn, don’t do anything. There are too many. Someone mentioned the Chinese. In Spain, they don’t really integrate much and they barely speak Spanish, but man, these guys work a lot. They open new business all over the place and you know what? This is very good. I applaud their will and effort.

Mascherano, I come from a somewhat small city in Spain (half million people) and there are already neighbourhoods that are “off limits”. They weren’t 10-15 years ago, but many immigrants are located there now. They fall into poverty and the area deteriorates quickly. Some of them try to find a job, integrate somehow, and move out. But the vast majority doesn’t and they are stuck there, having children, leeching from the social security system and not contributing at all. Their children will be born poor, without any idea of where they live, with very little hopes for the future and the cycle will continue. The burden on the social security system increases and increases (Spanish health system is close to bankrupt already) and one day it will collapse. Then what?

[/quote]

I just want to say up front that while I’ve read a book or two on US immigration, I’ve never really paid attention to European immigration, so this is really fascinating to me. I’m also completely oblivious.

That said, and i think similarly to France, the issue, again, is not with immigration, but with poverty. I mean, you say it your self, “Their children will be born poor, without any idea of where they live, with very little hopes for the future and the cycle will continue.” THIS is the travesty in and of itself!

How can you maintain a vibrant economic and social system if a large portion of your fledgling population has been ostracized from it? Its great that you have social services that keep them healthy and housed, but what about other services that educate these people about what it is to be a spaniard - where’s their “buy-in”, so to speak. [/quote]

They are ostracizing themselves! That’s my point!
These people in the ghettos are not even trying. They don’t speak French, they ignore the French laws…what do you expect? If they can’t work, they will be poor. There’s no other way around it.

There are, of course, natives who are also poor and ostracized, but they don’t form their own towns, stick there, impose their own culture and laws, etc.

What do you know about gipsies? How is it possible that, in all countries they live, they form their own ghettos with their own culture? They ostracize themselves, they don’t care about society. They are bringing this on themselves.
Watch this video : - YouTube
Even if you don’t understand what they say, it’s a 11 years old kid driving the car around the neighbourhood, speaking of how he doesn’t know what he will be when he’s old, “junkie, drunkard, football player, I don’t know” and talking about how everybody just goes to buy drugs. He stops to ask that guy why is he taking drugs, that he shouldn’t do it because it’s very bad.

So, to really sum everything up, ghettoing has to be stopped and people really need education. In Spain, an illegal immigrant can send his children to school for free! The children will even get free books and all the material he needs. While this is a burden for the system, if these kids learn something and can get a decent job when they are old, then we all win. But if these people just stay in their own neighbourhood and just reproduce…then we’re leading nowhere.

76

[quote]Edevus wrote:

They are ostracizing themselves! That’s my point!
These people in the ghettos are not even trying. They don’t speak French, they ignore the French laws…what do you expect? If they can’t work, they will be poor. There’s no other way around it.

There are, of course, natives who are also poor and ostracized, but they don’t form their own towns, stick there, impose their own culture and laws, etc.

What do you know about gipsies? How is it possible that, in all countries they live, they form their own ghettos with their own culture? They ostracize themselves, they don’t care about society. They are bringing this on themselves.
Watch this video : - YouTube
Even if you don’t understand what they say, it’s a 11 years old kid driving the car around the neighbourhood, speaking of how he doesn’t know what he will be when he’s old, “junkie, drunkard, football player, I don’t know” and talking about how everybody just goes to buy drugs. He stops to ask that guy why is he taking drugs, that he shouldn’t do it because it’s very bad.

So, to really sum everything up, ghettoing has to be stopped and people really need education. In Spain, an illegal immigrant can send his children to school for free! The children will even get free books and all the material he needs. While this is a burden for the system, if these kids learn something and can get a decent job when they are old, then we all win. But if these people just stay in their own neighbourhood and just reproduce…then we’re leading nowhere.

[/quote]

HA! The accento gallego kills me! And btw, that kid drives like a boss, and is pretty freaking articulate. Almost too articulate to be a football player. lol! Amazing. Thanks for sharing.

I actually do know a fair bit about gypsies, and you’re right, they are completely exclusionary and do ostracize themselves. But not all of gypsy culture is necessarily a poor one, despite the fact that many do continue to live in trailers and maintain a lot of their gypsy culture and values. Its a heritage. But still, I see your point.

And it is interesting, this “culture of dissent” that you speak of. We had a similar situation here in NYC in the 70s and 80s (except they weren’t immigrants, but natives) and it took a lot of “cleaning up” of these impoverished neighborhoods to even minimally rectify the problem (they still struggle today!). They had to get rid of the drugs, make new housing, get better transport in and around these areas, get rid of the other crime and gangs - and even then, that often produced a whole set of new problems for these people, since all of that was so deeply rooted the fabric of their micro-societies. Like, how are you supposed to go “legit” in the wink of an eye? Its hard not to revert to your “known behaviors.”

Anyways, lots of interesting stuff here.

77

[quote]Otep wrote:
I’m with you, to a certain extent. I, and most Americans, are huge fans of legal immigration. Legal immigrants have respect for American laws and authority, and we can set standards and quotas for who we want to let in based on what skills and abilities they bring to the table.

It took America a while to think of this. Meantime, the Irish and Slavs came over. Which is to say, they were legal immigrants.

But your idea that, since things turned out pretty alright with the Irish and the Slavs (and the Czechs, and the Chinese, and the…) then things will always turn out pretty alright is stupid. It says there’s no need for an immigration policy. Please tell me this isn’t what you’re saying.
[/quote]

Of course not. The country does need to have an immigration policy, and should have secured borders.

However, quotas that allow only skilled people in are not part of that policy. This country is for all people, not just the skilled ones. When my family came over, they were coal miners, liquor store owners, and other assorted non-skilled things.

That would be the worst kind of discrimination.

I’m not saying that there aren’t problems with the system. But there are overacrching ideas that cannot be forgotten, and the freedom to immigrate here is one of the tenets of the nation.

78

[quote]Edevus wrote:
I’ve got the feeling that it’s working different for you for different reasons. I think that it’s related to the social security system and the welfare. In Denmark, 2.5% of the population is immigrant and they use 40% of the welfare money. Do you think this kind of system can be sustained? What will happen when they are not 2.5%, but 5%? Because it will happen soon, due to their out of control birthrate.

Keep in mind that I’m always talking about those who don’t work, don’t learn, don’t do anything. There are too many. Someone mentioned the Chinese. In Spain, they don’t really integrate much and they barely speak Spanish, but man, these guys work a lot. They open new business all over the place and you know what? This is very good. I applaud their will and effort.

Mascherano, I come from a somewhat small city in Spain (half million people) and there are already neighbourhoods that are “off limits”. They weren’t 10-15 years ago, but many immigrants are located there now. They fall into poverty and the area deteriorates quickly. Some of them try to find a job, integrate somehow, and move out. But the vast majority doesn’t and they are stuck there, having children, leeching from the social security system and not contributing at all. Their children will be born poor, without any idea of where they live, with very little hopes for the future and the cycle will continue. The burden on the social security system increases and increases (Spanish health system is close to bankrupt already) and one day it will collapse. Then what?

[/quote]

The problem is having a social welfare state that allows them to leach these benefits. This combined with a lack of jobs, is not a good equation.

However, keep in mind that at least in America, there’s as many white people - if not more - leaching off the welfare system as well. Some genuinely need it, others are shams.

What I don’t like, to be plain, is characterizing all immigrants as this or that. There’s a lot of cats in those slums who trying to make it out, and there’s a lot of native born people who won’t do shit.

I think you are judging by the lot.

Keep in mind, I understand and respect your opinion. Truly. I just think you may be thinking about it in a more reactionary way than an American might because you’ve never seen such a change in demographics before.

79

I thought this article had particular bearing on the initial discussion.

80

[quote]Mascherano wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:

They are ostracizing themselves! That’s my point!
These people in the ghettos are not even trying. They don’t speak French, they ignore the French laws…what do you expect? If they can’t work, they will be poor. There’s no other way around it.

There are, of course, natives who are also poor and ostracized, but they don’t form their own towns, stick there, impose their own culture and laws, etc.

What do you know about gipsies? How is it possible that, in all countries they live, they form their own ghettos with their own culture? They ostracize themselves, they don’t care about society. They are bringing this on themselves.
Watch this video : - YouTube
Even if you don’t understand what they say, it’s a 11 years old kid driving the car around the neighbourhood, speaking of how he doesn’t know what he will be when he’s old, “junkie, drunkard, football player, I don’t know” and talking about how everybody just goes to buy drugs. He stops to ask that guy why is he taking drugs, that he shouldn’t do it because it’s very bad.

So, to really sum everything up, ghettoing has to be stopped and people really need education. In Spain, an illegal immigrant can send his children to school for free! The children will even get free books and all the material he needs. While this is a burden for the system, if these kids learn something and can get a decent job when they are old, then we all win. But if these people just stay in their own neighbourhood and just reproduce…then we’re leading nowhere.

[/quote]

HA! The accento gallego kills me! And btw, that kid drives like a boss, and is pretty freaking articulate. Almost too articulate to be a football player. lol! Amazing. Thanks for sharing.

I actually do know a fair bit about gypsies, and you’re right, they are completely exclusionary and do ostracize themselves. But not all of gypsy culture is necessarily a poor one, despite the fact that many do continue to live in trailers and maintain a lot of their gypsy culture and values. Its a heritage. But still, I see your point.

And it is interesting, this “culture of dissent” that you speak of. We had a similar situation here in NYC in the 70s and 80s (except they weren’t immigrants, but natives) and it took a lot of “cleaning up” of these impoverished neighborhoods to even minimally rectify the problem (they still struggle today!). They had to get rid of the drugs, make new housing, get better transport in and around these areas, get rid of the other crime and gangs - and even then, that often produced a whole set of new problems for these people, since all of that was so deeply rooted the fabric of their micro-societies. Like, how are you supposed to go “legit” in the wink of an eye? Its hard not to revert to your “known behaviors.”

Anyways, lots of interesting stuff here.

[/quote]

Yes, that kid sounds very smart. I’m sure that like him, there’s plenty of smart children who never stand a chance in life because they don’t have the opportunity to use their talents in life.

So yes, those neighbourhoods also need to be “cleaned”, buildings and roads fixed, security stablished, new business can open there, etc. But that takes a lot of money and effort and it doesn’t mean it will work.

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Edevus wrote:
I’ve got the feeling that it’s working different for you for different reasons. I think that it’s related to the social security system and the welfare. In Denmark, 2.5% of the population is immigrant and they use 40% of the welfare money. Do you think this kind of system can be sustained? What will happen when they are not 2.5%, but 5%? Because it will happen soon, due to their out of control birthrate.

Keep in mind that I’m always talking about those who don’t work, don’t learn, don’t do anything. There are too many. Someone mentioned the Chinese. In Spain, they don’t really integrate much and they barely speak Spanish, but man, these guys work a lot. They open new business all over the place and you know what? This is very good. I applaud their will and effort.

Mascherano, I come from a somewhat small city in Spain (half million people) and there are already neighbourhoods that are “off limits”. They weren’t 10-15 years ago, but many immigrants are located there now. They fall into poverty and the area deteriorates quickly. Some of them try to find a job, integrate somehow, and move out. But the vast majority doesn’t and they are stuck there, having children, leeching from the social security system and not contributing at all. Their children will be born poor, without any idea of where they live, with very little hopes for the future and the cycle will continue. The burden on the social security system increases and increases (Spanish health system is close to bankrupt already) and one day it will collapse. Then what?

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The problem is having a social welfare state that allows them to leach these benefits. This combined with a lack of jobs, is not a good equation.

However, keep in mind that at least in America, there’s as many white people - if not more - leaching off the welfare system as well. Some genuinely need it, others are shams.

What I don’t like, to be plain, is characterizing all immigrants as this or that. There’s a lot of cats in those slums who trying to make it out, and there’s a lot of native born people who won’t do shit.

I think you are judging by the lot.

Keep in mind, I understand and respect your opinion. Truly. I just think you may be thinking about it in a more reactionary way than an American might because you’ve never seen such a change in demographics before. [/quote]

I’m not stereotyping about immigrants…mostly because I’m one myself!
I’m trying to make sure that, at all times, I’m talking about those who ostracize themselves from society and make no effort to step forward and go for a better life. Although I’m sure that this step is very, very hard.

A change in demographics? According to calculations, if nothing changes, by 2060 European natives will be minorities in their own countries.

How about that?