Mick, I’ve decided that no one, not even a heroin user, can be this blind, ignorant, and full of shit. his has to be some sort of weird joke. Have fun and laugh it up. I’m laughing, too, but at you, not with you.
I don’t have time to read everything posted, as most of it goes back and forth. However I just wanted to make one more point regarding why pitchers taking steroids did not help hank’s record in any way.
Steroids increase power. Power helps a whole hell of a lot more with hitting than pitching. The guy with the best fastball isn’t necessarily the guy who is the strongest.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
I don’t have time to read everything posted, as most of it goes back and forth. However I just wanted to make one more point regarding why pitchers taking steroids did not help hank’s record in any way.
Steroids increase power. Power helps a whole hell of a lot more with hitting than pitching. The guy with the best fastball isn’t necessarily the guy who is the strongest.
[/quote]
WHAT? So there’s no power involved in pitching?
You know what else steroids do? Help recovery. What position do you think would benefit most from increased recovery?
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Mick, I’ve decided that no one, not even a heroin user, can be this blind, ignorant, and full of shit. his has to be some sort of weird joke. Have fun and laugh it up. I’m laughing, too, but at you, not with you.
This time you didn’t even try to make your point. And I see you’re continuing your personal attacks. I didn’t think you’d give up this easily.
If you ever want to get back to the debate let me know. [/quote]
You don’t even know what my point is.
What personal attack? All I said was that I didn’t understand your little joke here. I didn’t attack you.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
I don’t have time to read everything posted, as most of it goes back and forth. However I just wanted to make one more point regarding why pitchers taking steroids did not help hank’s record in any way.
Steroids increase power. Power helps a whole hell of a lot more with hitting than pitching. The guy with the best fastball isn’t necessarily the guy who is the strongest.
[/quote]
Steroids are great for recovery. Perfect for pitching.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
I don’t have time to read everything posted, as most of it goes back and forth. However I just wanted to make one more point regarding why pitchers taking steroids did not help hank’s record in any way.
Steroids increase power. Power helps a whole hell of a lot more with hitting than pitching. The guy with the best fastball isn’t necessarily the guy who is the strongest.
[/quote]
Bullshit. You know nothing about steroids if you think that it is only about strength.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
LankyMofo wrote:
I don’t have time to read everything posted, as most of it goes back and forth. However I just wanted to make one more point regarding why pitchers taking steroids did not help hank’s record in any way.
Steroids increase power. Power helps a whole hell of a lot more with hitting than pitching. The guy with the best fastball isn’t necessarily the guy who is the strongest.
WHAT? So there’s no power involved in pitching?
You know what else steroids do? Help recovery. What position do you think would benefit most from increased recovery?[/quote]
Touche. I didn’t even think about recovery. Point well received.
That being said, I still don’t think steroids help protect Hank’s record. I guess that’s just personal opinion.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
Touche. I didn’t even think about recovery. Point well received.
That being said, I still don’t think steroids help protect Hank’s record. I guess that’s just personal opinion.
[/quote]
No one really knows. The best we can do is speculate and play “what if?” with these sort of things.
steroids and baseball are a mess…the irony is baseball was doing just fine until outsiders came along and decided that baseball had a “problem”. you’d think they’d fix the normal way: by telling congress to fuck off but now too many ignorant parents think their kids are going to be scoring gear @ little league.
as for bonds i don’t care if he had a bionic arm he still hit those balls. there ain’t no denying it. he’s the only man on earth that’s been there. i don’t doubt for a second that the majority of “fans” in those espn polls have no idea what it’s like to even hit a home run in little league.
i doubt you’ll find many players, if any @ all, who feel bonds doesn’t deserve to be in the hall. hank aaron excluded because of course he’s gonna take shots @ bonds; he also said that pitchers shouldn’t be eligible for The MVP so what does that tell ya … this little game in the press is all he’s got left.
bonds on the other hand really could give a shit about what his image is or what the press has to say. the man just wants to hit. whatever happpened to PLAYING. its about BASEBALL you know ? say what you want about barry bonds but he’s no poser.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I was watching ESPN yesterday, and the talking head - I can’t remember his name, but he is the black guy that mainly talks about basketball - was going on about how this is nothing more than a witch hunt, and an attempt to make Bonds the face of the “steroid era”. He is staunchly anti-steroid, but made some really good points about how it seems Bonds is being singled out.
Baseball made tons of money while one admitted juicer was going after Maris’ record. Nothing was said or done at that time. Nothing was said or done when Barry was chasing McGuire’s record. Only after much media hype, did steroid use enter the discussion…Is it a coincidence that they go after him in the off-season after knocking Aaron off his perch?..The talking heads are doing their damnedest to make it about his juicing…[/quote]
Anyone who does not factor in the so-called “race card” in this case is a fool (as in “fooling yourself”)…From O.J. to Ben Johnson to Marion Jones+, present into the future, you will see the predictable pattern: The sable performers will always be more vilified, more demanded to be publicly penitent, more harshly punished, and more readily chosen as objects of chatty cocktail conversation about “those people” aquiring million$ and putting on airs with their earnings from gross physical capabilities (Why Muffy, they cheated using those filthy drugs, grew up with them in those ghettoes they were spawned in. Thank Heavens our Chad never had to compete against them you know…Such trash never should have been allowed in University to begin with)
…Meanwhile, Chad and his Rowing team are talking back training, injection protocols and safely/legally importing cycles from their parents Swiss Doctors, after all, they never get tested…
I don’t really think it centers around the race issue. They pretty much gave the coke heads of the 80’s a pass, regardless of color.
And I think you are being just as racist as you accuse others if you think white people sit around and talk like that.
IF Bonds juiced after 2003 - he broke the rules.
But - an this is my point regardless of color - where are all the other juicers? Why are they not on the poster next to Bonds?
He was singled out, no question. I just happen to think that it was because he broke THE record and not because he was black. Remember - he comes from Baseball Royalty, and his God Father is freaking Willie Mays. If anything it is an attempt to knock a god off his throne.
This isn’t a question about Bonds being a good player or deserving to be in the hall of fame. Everyone knows he was awesome before and after steroids.
Of course he’s being singled out. He broke 2 of the most haloed records in baseball. He had an advantage that others didn’t.
Agreed, other steroid users should be punished as well. But it’s not economically feasible nor would it make as big of a statement. How much news did it make when Jason Grimsley tested positive? Sure, people heard about it, for a week.
The only person I think should be being singled out as much as Bonds is Palmeiro. He is the only one to CLEARY go on record and lie about using steroids, testing positive later. Plus he’s got hall of fame numbers.
BTW, anyone who thinks Bonds didn’t use steroids is just plain nuts. Innocent until proven guilty and all that jazz, blah blah blah. There is so much evidence against him it’s ridiculous. Sure, maybe they weren’t officially illegal until 2003. I’m just saying he was using before that and he swears up and down he wasn’t.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
I don’t really think it centers around the race issue. They pretty much gave the coke heads of the 80’s a pass, regardless of color.
And I think you are being just as racist as you accuse others if you think white people sit around and talk like that.
IF Bonds juiced after 2003 - he broke the rules.
But - an this is my point regardless of color - where are all the other juicers? Why are they not on the poster next to Bonds?
He was singled out, no question. I just happen to think that it was because he broke THE record and not because he was black. Remember - he comes from Baseball Royalty, and his God Father is freaking Willie Mays. If anything it is an attempt to knock a god off his throne. [/quote]
yes , where are all the other juicers ? they’re quietly serving suspensions…so quietly everyone on this thread had trouble naming them. the facts remain bonds didn’t fail any tests and it’s pretty gross that everyone in the country is willing to single this guy out based on the same kind of logic used to judge “american idol”. whatever the hypcrisy of public opinion, the fact remains bonds never failed a test and deserves the respect he has earned.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
This isn’t a question about Bonds being a good player or deserving to be in the hall of fame. Everyone knows he was awesome before and after steroids.
Of course he’s being singled out. He broke 2 of the most haloed records in baseball. He had an advantage that others didn’t.
Agreed, other steroid users should be punished as well. But it’s not economically feasible nor would it make as big of a statement. How much news did it make when Jason Grimsley tested positive? Sure, people heard about it, for a week.
The only person I think should be being singled out as much as Bonds is Palmeiro. He is the only one to CLEARY go on record and lie about using steroids, testing positive later. Plus he’s got hall of fame numbers.
BTW, anyone who thinks Bonds didn’t use steroids is just plain nuts. Innocent until proven guilty and all that jazz, blah blah blah. There is so much evidence against him it’s ridiculous. Sure, maybe they weren’t officially illegal until 2003. I’m just saying he was using before that and he swears up and down he wasn’t.[/quote]
doesn’t matter what you think. are you willing to make the ethical leap and convict people of crimes based on opinion ? without evidence ? never mind, i already know that you are:
did you really write that ? it’s really fucked up how easily you and everyone else with your argument would trade the premise of our justice system to protect a tiny by comparison home run record.
i also take issue with your statement " anyone who thinks bonds didn’t use steroids is just plain nuts." which i would actually agree with if you wrote:
’ anyone who thinks everyplayer in the league who needed steroids and didn’t take them is just plain nuts. there’s so much evidence against them it’s ridiculous… ’
but you didn’t write that.you just went ahead and singled-out bonds yet again. you people who are so quick to talk about " fairness and cheating " never exemplify it in your own arguments. that’s a bitch huh ?
I don’t think Bonds is being singled out for prosecution. By the media? Yes. If Giambi would have lied under oath he would be busted too. He admitted taking steroids. If Bonds would have admitted it he would not be under indictment.
Palmiero apparently lied under oath as well but that was in a different venue. I have no idea if a prosecutor is working that case so I have no idea if there will be any legal consequences there.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
I don’t think Bonds is being singled out for prosecution. By the media? Yes. If Giambi would have lied under oath he would be busted too. He admitted taking steroids. If Bonds would have admitted it he would not be under indictment.
Palmiero apparently lied under oath as well but that was in a different venue. I have no idea if a prosecutor is working that case so I have no idea if there will be any legal consequences there.[/quote]
i see him as being singled out for prosecution because of the time lapse and how lame the charge is…only my opinion of course but i can’t get past the fact that after four or five years and who knows how many millions spent they should have some real fish to fry but they don’t…they’ve got a weak perjury charge that relates to nothing except bond’s state of mind. obstruction of justice ?? 30 years in prison ?? c’mon man these guys are making a desperate media splash to cover their own ass. imho anyway.
[quote]swivel wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
I don’t think Bonds is being singled out for prosecution. By the media? Yes. If Giambi would have lied under oath he would be busted too. He admitted taking steroids. If Bonds would have admitted it he would not be under indictment.
Palmiero apparently lied under oath as well but that was in a different venue. I have no idea if a prosecutor is working that case so I have no idea if there will be any legal consequences there.
i see him as being singled out for prosecution because of the time lapse and how lame the charge is…only my opinion of course but i can’t get past the fact that after four or five years and who knows how many millions spent they should have some real fish to fry but they don’t…they’ve got a weak perjury charge that relates to nothing except bond’s state of mind. obstruction of justice ?? 30 years in prison ?? c’mon man these guys are making a desperate media splash to cover their own ass. imho anyway.
[/quote]
These are the charges that make the next guy think twice about lying under oath.
It doesn’t matter if he beats it, the prosecutor is putting fear into the next guys that get up on the stand.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
These are the charges that make the next guy think twice about lying under oath.
It doesn’t matter if he beats it, the prosecutor is putting fear into the next guys that get up on the stand.
[/quote]
yes i agree that’s exactly it and i think that’s a bs reason to single someone out because it’s mostly political…the telling fact it seems alot of people are missing the boat on is the guy who ran the whole investigation from the start, kevin ryan, went years without indicting bonds because he knew they had jack-all on him.
and now that he’s resigned suddenly we have the indictment… but yeah it is because of the media attention already on bonds. if they could’ve gotten the same publicity pay-off out of someone like palmeiro or whoever they would’ve singled him out instead. either way it amounts to a justice dept trying to look like they’re doing something.