[quote]Airtruth wrote:
…
You think Marion is rattin on Barry? otherwise I can’t see how they can prove that Barry knew what he was taking. None of the athletes around him said they knew, Greg anderson isn’t telling, Victor’s already serving. [/quote]
I have no idea how they can prove he knew. It is pretty obvious he knows but it doesn’t seem like there would be enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt unless someone rolled over on him.
[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
I do think we can look at how all of the various sports have handled the “performance-enchancing drug problem” and agree, that Major League Baseball has handled the problem worse than any other sport (second prize goes to cycling). I agree the government had no fucking business getting involved.
[/quote]
By not getting involved do you mean not going after balco from the begining, or not creating a law to ban steriods, or demanding Mlb to regulate steriods?
Thats crazy to say the government shouldn’t go after a player if he plays in a sport that doesn’t regulate illegal activity. Baseball is not its own country. You can’t break a steriod law then move to United States of Baseball. Somebody mentioned pac man jones earlier yet I don’t hear anybody demanding that his athletic career and criminal livelyhood be seperated. Thats pretty hypocritical, when its a law you want to break they should be allowed to play, but when its another law suspend him for a year.
[quote]Airtruth wrote:
Dr.PowerClean wrote:
I do think we can look at how all of the various sports have handled the “performance-enchancing drug problem” and agree, that Major League Baseball has handled the problem worse than any other sport (second prize goes to cycling). I agree the government had no fucking business getting involved.
By not getting involved do you mean not going after balco from the begining, or not creating a law to ban steriods, or demanding Mlb to regulate steriods?
Thats crazy to say the government shouldn’t go after a player if he plays in a sport that doesn’t regulate illegal activity. Baseball is not its own country. You can’t break a steriod law then move to United States of Baseball. Somebody mentioned pac man jones earlier yet I don’t hear anybody demanding that his athletic career and criminal livelyhood be seperated. Thats pretty hypocritical, when its a law you want to break they should be allowed to play, but when its another law suspend him for a year.[/quote]
Our government obviously has the right to do almost anything it damn well pleases. The judicious use of that power is at question here. To go after small time steroid distributors like BACLO, fine. To query baseball as to why they didn't have a decent substance abuse policy, and to urge them to get it done, fine.
But to launch a federal investigation into the sport as a whole, with the leaders of that investigation clearly biased and intent on “bringing down” Barry Bonds and everyone like him…is this what we want from our government? I thought we had some more important issues, like a war.
Dammit airtruth, you boxed me into a hole which sounds like I feel sorry for Bonds. I don’t. I feel sorry for baseball and sports as a whole. Aren’t we all sick and tired of hearing yet another Marion Jones type story? We’re all a bit hypocritical, we love our athletes and we give them far more lattitude than I think we would give ourselves. Doc
This is all about people hating Bonds and abusing their power to get him. We don’t see them going after Palmero. Palmero lied under oath and they don’t care. They don’t hate him like they do bonds.
This is just like the case with Joe Francis, the founder of Girls Gone Wild. Some judge hates him so he’s kept him locked up for seven months over what are clearly bogus and trumped up charges.
Of course Bonds lied under oath, but it really shows that he ain’t all that dumb. All those guys testifying were told it was a closed hearing and nothing they say would get out. Turns out everything got out. We heard everyones testimony.
Maybe part of the reason they hate him so much is when Bonds chose not to tell the truth, he was basically saying “I can’t trust you”. After all, he had full immunity and the public wasn’t going to learn a thing. He had nothing to lose except if he didn’t believe they could keep his testimony under wraps.
When everyones testimony was leaked, Bonds was proved right and it was right in their face.
[quote]on edge wrote:
This is all about people hating Bonds and abusing their power to get him. We don’t see them going after Palmero. Palmero lied under oath and they don’t care. …[/quote]
I am not too sure about that. Could they prove Paliero lied? I don’t remember all the circumstances.
Did he test positive after he testified to Congress? Was that the only time he was under oath?
It seems to me McGuire was the only one that didn’t lie his ass off.
Time to stop this witch hunt. Proper use of some of these substances could be a virtual fountain of youth and greatly improve the quality of many of our lives as we age. Why the hell aren’t we spending money researching and improving them instead of this farce?
Yeah I’m sick of hearing about steriods, I hardly care either way. Just wish sports was either with or without it. I also don’t think Marion Jones deserves to lose her medals, or Barry needs an asterick, after all I’m positive the the competition for both athletes were using it.
The government made a law and now they have to enforce it, it’s going to stay that way until the people around steroids stop acting like it’s crack and keeping it underground.
It might be messed up but the reason the government is going after Barry is not because of steroids, it’s because they don’t like being made a fool of. They don’t like being lied to and want everybody to be scared when they come after you. After all they went after Martha Stewart for the same thing. The whole balco incident had to go down, it made the feds feel like these people think they’re smarter than them. They came up with schemes on what lies to use, didn’t flinch or run from jail time, and greg anderson did not rat, huge blow to federal ego.
The only way to really stop it is if the public gets tired of it which they won’t because deep in the gen publics hearts they love to see stars fall. For every person against going after Barry theres a million and one supporters screaming get him.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
shizen wrote:
…he still was a good player long before the steroid abuse…
Has it been established that he “abused steroids”?
[/quote]
Didn’t you know any use of AAS is considered abuse??
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
And don’t tell me that that’s different. Whether you or I agree with the law, or specific rules in the case of the bike example is irrelevant. We are not talking about some garage lifter, we’re talking about someone who is a professional at the very top of their field in a sport where millions of people can watch. He was expected to conduct himself according to the rules-And he didn’t!
[/quote]
No no no he’s not. He’s expected to do what it takes to win the game. He gets rewarded for doing those things with larger contract salaries. If he led the giants to a world series, there would be tons and tons of people in the giants stands and front office defending his ass right now.
Don’t the courts have better shit to do with their time?
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
I agree his exploits should be big-But without the juice…like his competitors who are playing by the rules. Unless you have proof that his competitors are NOT playing by the rules. Do you have such evidence?
no…I didn’t think so.
[/quote]
Double standard, barry hasn’t tested positive for steroids, but he’s guilty, but since his competitors haven’t they’re not?
Well Giambi tested positive, there’s one.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
I pretty much think that we are both spouting our opinions. It’s just that yours is weak considering the facts in the matter.[/quote]
I use facts, and names. You have provided nothing but circular logic, at best.
[quote]Fact: Rules state no steroids.
Would you tell your kids to only obey the rules that they like? Well this is a hell of a lot more important than that. This is a public figure who is paid based upon a physical performance-And he may have tried to enhance that performance through illegal means.[/quote]
Show me where I ever said steroids should be used in sports. I think if you actually read what I wrote, you would see that I say to leave it to the sport to govern itself. So pretty much your entire monologue here is an exercise in your inability to see or read anything bit what you want me to say. Try a little intellectul honesty, and leave the fucking straw men alone.
[quote]If he used them he broke the rules, which means he had an unfair competitive edge. Yes he was great before the juice, but he was better after it.
Why else would he take steroids (if he did) if he didn’t have a competitive advantage while using them? Think he just wanted to flex in front of the mirror like so many wanna be t men who stick needles in their ass?
I doubt it.[/quote]
I told you exactly why I think he used - if he used. Now you are asking the same fucking question again.
You’re making a fool of yourself in an attempt to sound relevant. You have failed horribly. No go back and read what I have written, and try to pay attention this time around.
Next time you post - perhaps you could use some sort of factual support for your position. You haven’t so far - so I doubt you will in any future attempts.
Find someone else to have a pissing contest with - I don’t have the patience for logical midgets such as you.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Fact: Rules state no steroids.
[/quote]
You do realize there was no rule or policy regarding steroid use in MLB before 2003, don’t you? I don’t see how it can be considered cheating when there’s no rule in place.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Fact: Rules state no steroids.
You do realize there was no rule or policy regarding steroid use in MLB before 2003, don’t you? I don’t see how it can be considered cheating when there’s no rule in place.
I think I understand what you’re saying. If a substance is illegal but there is no specific rule in your particular league that says you can’t use it then it’s okay to break the law.
Let’s take this a step farther, is it then okay to break the opposing pitchers legs the night before the game because there is no rule in baseball that says you can’t do that?
Every law can be disregarded if it is not specifically stated otherwise in the official Major League Baseball rule book.
Do I have that right?[/quote]
No - you completely miss it - as you have since you began posting in this thread.
Ever heard of a place call TJ? Or Juarez?. It is not illegal in Mexico. So what is illegal about taking a ride to TJ and getting a shot? Or - cross the river into Juarez, and get some test? Name the law that was broken?
The law states it is illegal to possess, or sell AAS without a prescription. One could be under the care of a doctor who prescribed testosterone to his patients. What law is broken?
[quote]rainjack wrote:
The Fed is nothing more than a playground bully… [/quote]
More correctly,the U.S. Attorney’s/Dept.of (in) Justice’s office…These needle-dicks are in the business of high-profile cases to make a rep and get that high-octane job in D.C. and/or Judgeship…They could care less who they step on in the process…Notice how the lazy bastards make it a priority to lock up law enforcement members (Janet Reno being a blatant example, and that punk in Texas who went after the Border Patrol agents most recently), my point being: if they are so eager to get headlines prosecuting lawmen, what chance does the little guy stand against these power-mad cowards?..Well, we are seeing it now, are we not?..
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Names? You threw out a few players names whom you believe to be on steroids.[/quote]
You continue to prove your inability to understand the written word. Palmiero and McGuire have both admitted to either taking steroids, or taking pro-hormones. I don’t suspect them to have taken them - they are on the record as having admitted to taking them. A simple read back through the posts will show you that.
[quote]Here is your argument thus far:
“I want the fucking government to stay out of baseball. And steroids have not been proven to be addictive anyway.”[/quote]
Yet more proof that you can’t read anything that doesn’t fit into what you want me to say. Either that - or you fixate on one statement - which was showing that making AAS Sched III substances was opposed by the very agencies charged with enforcement.
Not the points you have made up for me - that’s for sure.
You have provided no facts. None. Zero. How can I lose based on facts that have yet to be provided? Sorry, but your logic, or lack thereof cannot be substituted as fact.
[quote]You should spend this energy attempting to develop your point. When you post things like this it’s clear that you’ve given up and have nothing further to say.
You aren’t very adept at Internet debate are you? But that doesn’t stop you from rambling on and on ad nauseam for how many years now?[/quote]
And you accuse me of making it personal? DO a word count, sparky - you are the one with oral diarrhea, not me. And for what? You provide no factual evidence for you point - which you have yet to state beyond “Steroids are illegal - deal with it”.
I have used factual support. You have not even tried.
Like I said - there is no point to arguing further with a logical midget such as yourself.
I would like to interrupt the flaming to pose a question. Has this issue broken down to simply the people who are in favor of gear see Bonds as being persecuted, and the people opposed to gear see it as totally justified?
I thought it was far more complicated than that. I never took steroids illegally (I'm a hypogonadal old fart on TRT), yet I have a problem with the way the government is handling the case. And I have a problem with the sad deterioration of sports due to the obvious problems associated with this endless cat and mouse game of trying to "catch" the users with testing, investigations and violations of personal liberty. Meanwhile, many if not most of our elite athletes are using and having to lie, deny and hide their use. It's a huge mess.
We need new ideas and new solutions.
[quote]Dr.PowerClean wrote:
I would like to interrupt the flaming to pose a question. Has this issue broken down to simply the people who are in favor of gear see Bonds as being persecuted, and the people opposed to gear see it as totally justified?
I thought it was far more complicated than that. I never took steroids illegally (I'm a hypogonadal old fart on TRT), yet I have a problem with the way the government is handling the case. And I have a problem with the sad deterioration of sports due to the obvious problems associated with this endless cat and mouse game of trying to "catch" the users with testing, investigations and violations of personal liberty. Meanwhile, many if not most of our elite athletes are using and having to lie, deny and hide their use. It's a huge mess.
We need new ideas and new solutions.[/quote]
I am not in favor of steroids in sports, nor am I opposed. I can understand the justification athletes use to use steroids in violation of the rules, but if it is against the rules, it is against the rules.
It is not just the pro-steroid crowd against the anti-steroid crowd. I was watching ESPN yesterday, and the talking head - I can’t remember his name, but he is the black guy that mainly talks about basketball - was going on about how this is nothing more than a witch hunt, and an attempt to make Bonds the face of the “steroid era”. He is staunchly anti-steroid, but made some really good points about how it seems Bonds is being singled out.
Baseball made tons of money while one admitted juicer was going after Maris’ record. Nothing was said or done at that time. Nothing was said or done when Barry was chasing McGuire’s record. Only after much media hype, did steroid use enter the discussion. So why single out Barry? Why wait 4 years to go after him? If he lied, he lied - but an indictment 4 years after the fact? Is it a coincidence that they go after him in the off-season after knocking Aaron off his perch?
There are several things that just do not pass the smell test surrounding Bonds. Did he juice? Oddly, that is not even on the table right now. But the talking heads are doing their damnedest to make it about his juicing.