[quote]chillain wrote:
Did this all finally come down because Bonds’ trainer got tired of wasting away his own life in prison and rolled on him?
[/quote]
Thats what I’m guessing, I believe in one of the articles I read that he was let out of prison yesterday or will be free today. So I would guess he got tired of being ass raped and turned on Bonds.
[quote]chillain wrote:
Did this all finally come down because Bonds’ trainer got tired of wasting away his own life in prison and rolled on him?
[/quote]
Mark Garegos (sp?) is the defense attorney for Bond’s trainer, and he said that his client never said a word.
If he had rolled - we would have been hearing about it non-stop on ESPN.
If Bonds beats this thing in court - he should sue the dogshit out of ESPN and ABC for basically ruining what was left of a HOF career. How many times did the motherfuckers giggle over the idea that Bonds was finished?
We need a fucking revolution.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
We need a fucking revolution. [/quote]
We DO need a revolution. But I don’t think Bonds should be our William Wallace. Maybe Lance Armstrong, maybe even McGwire, somebody the public generally loves, not hates. Doc
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Let’s see, he was questioned by a federal grand jury regarding steroid use. He then lied about it (according to the charges) and some of you are upset.
Ha ha…
[/quote]
What upsets me about the Bonds situation is not the fact that he may, or may not have lied to a federal Grand Jury, but that there was a fucking grand jury assembled in the first place.
Both the DEA, the FDA, and numerous doctors testified back in the early 90’s that Steroids were non-habit forming, and posed no real health threat to the public. But congress would have none of that - they proceeded to make AAS a schedule III controlled substance.
Why? Because athletes were taking them to enhance performance.
Operation Raw Deal did not clean up a drug problem. In fact, to my knowledge, only one person out of all the arrests had any prior criminal record. The rest of them were educated, hard working, tax paying (arguable, I guess), and otherwise contributing members of society.
When Barry Bonds can elicit such vitriolic hatred and condescending judgment from the fucking talking heads - while Pac Man Jones can plead out of felony charges without even a toss of the head - something is fucking wrong with this country.
Barry is facing jail time over an issue that should have never been a federal case in the first place.
That’s what has me upset.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Let’s see, he was questioned by a federal grand jury regarding steroid use. He then lied about it (according to the charges) and some of you are upset.
Ha ha…
What upsets me about the Bonds situation is not the fact that he may, or may not have lied to a federal Grand Jury, but that there was a fucking grand jury assembled in the first place.
Both the DEA, the FDA, and numerous doctors testified back in the early 90’s that Steroids were non-habit forming, and posed no real health threat to the public. But congress would have none of that - they proceeded to make AAS a schedule III controlled substance.
Why? Because athletes were taking them to enhance performance.
Operation Raw Deal did not clean up a drug problem. In fact, to my knowledge, only one person out of all the arrests had any prior criminal record. The rest of them were educated, hard working, tax paying (arguable, I guess), and otherwise contributing members of society.
When Barry Bonds can elicit such vitriolic hatred and condescending judgment from the fucking talking heads - while Pac Man Jones can plead out of felony charges without even a toss of the head - something is fucking wrong with this country.
Barry is facing jail time over an issue that should have never been a federal case in the first place.
That’s what has me upset.
Let me guess, you were one of the first to scream about Bill Clinton lying under oath…right?
It didn’t matter at the time that it was only about a blow job.
It’s not the blow job or the steroid use per se, it’s the act of lying, did you read the charges?
To speak directly to the issue, why is it fair that Bonds gets all of the accolades and money for breaking a record which he may not have broken had it not been for drug use?
If he got four strikes instead of three like everyone else would that be fair?
If I put a little motor on my bike and win the Tour De France does it count if I hide the motor somehow?
And don’t tell me that that’s different. Whether you or I agree with the law, or specific rules in the case of the bike example is irrelevant. We are not talking about some garage lifter, we’re talking about someone who is a professional at the very top of their field in a sport where millions of people can watch. He was expected to conduct himself according to the rules-And he didn’t!
These are the rules of the game, if you break them, you’re a cheater. And if you lie to a federal grand jury you’ve committed perjury.
If you don’t like those laws then go see your congressman and try to change them. In the mean time someone who is playing at such a high level and for very large stakes should have known better, and didn’t. He thought he could break the rules with impunity.
You better think about this one.
[/quote]
What in the fuck does Clinton have to do with this?
DO you have proof he broke rules? Seems to me if there was any proof - something would have been done about it. As it is - he is up on charges having nothing to do with his supposed steroid use.
Your hatred of Bonds is obvious. Your ignorance of the issue is glaring.
Instead of thinking - you need to learn how to fucking read what I wrote.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Let’s see, he was questioned by a federal grand jury regarding steroid use. He then lied about it (according to the charges) and some of you are upset.
Ha ha…
What upsets me about the Bonds situation is not the fact that he may, or may not have lied to a federal Grand Jury, but that there was a fucking grand jury assembled in the first place.
Both the DEA, the FDA, and numerous doctors testified back in the early 90’s that Steroids were non-habit forming, and posed no real health threat to the public. But congress would have none of that - they proceeded to make AAS a schedule III controlled substance.
Why? Because athletes were taking them to enhance performance.
Operation Raw Deal did not clean up a drug problem. In fact, to my knowledge, only one person out of all the arrests had any prior criminal record. The rest of them were educated, hard working, tax paying (arguable, I guess), and otherwise contributing members of society.
When Barry Bonds can elicit such vitriolic hatred and condescending judgment from the fucking talking heads - while Pac Man Jones can plead out of felony charges without even a toss of the head - something is fucking wrong with this country.
Barry is facing jail time over an issue that should have never been a federal case in the first place.
That’s what has me upset.
Let me guess, you were one of the first to scream about Bill Clinton lying under oath…right?
It didn’t matter at the time that it was only about a blow job.
It’s not the blow job or the steroid use per se, it’s the act of lying, did you read the charges?
To speak directly to the issue, why is it fair that Bonds gets all of the accolades and money for breaking a record which he may not have broken had it not been for drug use?
If he got four strikes instead of three like everyone else would that be fair?
If I put a little motor on my bike and win the Tour De France does it count if I hide the motor somehow?
And don’t tell me that that’s different. Whether you or I agree with the law, or specific rules in the case of the bike example is irrelevant. We are not talking about some garage lifter, we’re talking about someone who is a professional at the very top of their field in a sport where millions of people can watch. He was expected to conduct himself according to the rules-And he didn’t!
These are the rules of the game, if you break them, you’re a cheater. And if you lie to a federal grand jury you’ve committed perjury.
If you don’t like those laws then go see your congressman and try to change them. In the mean time someone who is playing at such a high level and for very large stakes should have known better, and didn’t. He thought he could break the rules with impunity.
You better think about this one.
What in the fuck does Clinton have to do with this?
DO you have proof he broke rules? Seems to me if there was any proof - something would have been done about it. As it is - he is up on charges having nothing to do with his supposed steroid use.
Your hatred of Bonds is obvious. Your ignorance of the issue is glaring.
Instead of thinking - you need to learn how to fucking read what I wrote.
[/quote]
I’m not saying this is absolute proof that he used steroids but cmon, he broke the single season home run record by 12? A record that stood for 37 years before McGuire broke it. And even McGuire was accused, maybe unofficially, of using steroids.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Mick28 wrote:
Let’s see, he was questioned by a federal grand jury regarding steroid use. He then lied about it (according to the charges) and some of you are upset.
Ha ha…
What upsets me about the Bonds situation is not the fact that he may, or may not have lied to a federal Grand Jury, but that there was a fucking grand jury assembled in the first place.
Both the DEA, the FDA, and numerous doctors testified back in the early 90’s that Steroids were non-habit forming, and posed no real health threat to the public. But congress would have none of that - they proceeded to make AAS a schedule III controlled substance.
Why? Because athletes were taking them to enhance performance.
Operation Raw Deal did not clean up a drug problem. In fact, to my knowledge, only one person out of all the arrests had any prior criminal record. The rest of them were educated, hard working, tax paying (arguable, I guess), and otherwise contributing members of society.
When Barry Bonds can elicit such vitriolic hatred and condescending judgment from the fucking talking heads - while Pac Man Jones can plead out of felony charges without even a toss of the head - something is fucking wrong with this country.
Barry is facing jail time over an issue that should have never been a federal case in the first place.
That’s what has me upset. [/quote]
Exactly. I don’t even do roids so in my case it is not roid rage!
Can I ask what rule of baseball Bonds broke? Someone inform me why it is wrong to use steroids or hgh in baseball. Who is pissed that Bonds might have or not have taken a substance. Are the people that are pissed. The ones that traded in the baseball, bat & glove money. For a 5th of Mad Dog 20/20. Are the people pissed that Bonds is making money?
Here is something I cannot get. If I pay $20 mil a year. It is because I can make at least $40 mil a year off of you. Why is so, hard for people to grasp. Here is a question (not to hj). Who is the dick? Broadway Joe, for asking for mil a year or the owner of the Jet’s for paying him a mil a year.
I guess, if my trainer gives a cream and a liquid and tells me it’s balm and Omega-3. For the money I am paying him (in th Bond case). Should I not trust that my trainer has my/our vested interest at hand. So, if you, ask if I knowingly took something and I answer no. I am answering correctly.
Pisseed off, old timers. Pissed because in the 30’s, 40’s, and up through to the 80’s. The dumb fucks were getting raped by management. Pissed that they didn’t have the chance to take steroids or HGH and get paid. If they knew about steroids and HGH. They would have been taking them.
I agree the Gov’t needs stop wasting our money on this.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
What in the fuck does Clinton have to do with this?
I’m just a bit surprised that you couldn’t follow the parallel.
Clinton lied under oath about an act that many feel should not have been questioned. You and some others feel that steroid use in baseball shouldn’t be questioned.
So, that’s what the fuck it has to do with it.
DO you have proof he broke rules?
No, if you reread what I wrote I stated “if” he was guilty, or broke the rules.
But I do believe that he did, my opinion nothing more.
Seems to me if there was any proof - something would have been done about it.
Something was done, he was called to testify regarding the use of steroids in baseball. Do you think that they just pulled his name out of a hat? No, he was called in because there was suspicion regarding his use of steroids.
Who else did they call?
Who didn’t they call?
How many others were indicted?
Your hatred of Bonds is obvious.
Actually, I don’t hate Bonds. And no where did I say that I did. But, he’s no different than any other player in that he should follow the rules.
If he did take steroids, he was not only cheating the system he was perpetuating a great ruse on the fans as well. As I wrote, if you want the accolades and the money then play by the rules.
If next week they changed those rules and said all baseball players can now take steroids that would be fine with me.
He cheated the fans, his competition and the people he worked for.
Is he a good guy for doing that?
Your ignorance of the issue is glaring.
Not true. But, your desire to take steroids to increase your own muscle size might just be blinding you to a greater issue.
Like I said, I don’t care if the average guy wants to stick a needle in his ass to make his biceps an inch bigger, while I think it’s stupid, it’s his business. But when you are a major league player you should know better. There’s far too much on the line.
Instead of thinking - you need to learn how to fucking read what I wrote.
The first time I read what you wrote very carefully. I was not impressed by your thoughts on the subject. Your latest effort here is even less impressive.
Less bluster and more facts backing up your inane assertions would at least help.
[/quote]
Let me spell it out for you very slowly.
If he broke rules in baseball - then baseball should self-regulate the infractions. But - the federal government stepped in and made substances that are not habit forming, and have no credible evidence of even being dangerous to one’s health to be equal with cocaine and heroine.
My point is that there should have never been a grand jury to sit in front of because the federal government should not be the authority enforcing baseball rules.
With that said - if he lied, he should be punished. No question.
But let me get this straight - you assume that since someone is called to testify, they had to be on the juice? That is your standard of proof? Are you sure you want to stand on that? I know you are more intelligent than this. Think about it.
I never mentioned his homeruns although I think 762 should be the record. He was an 8-time all-star, 8-time gold glove winner - all before he ever hit 50 dingers. All before there was even a question about his alleged steroid use His ability to make contact is without rival, as witnessed by his slugging percentage, and laughably low strikeout total. He should be in the HOF based on those stats alone.
McGuire juiced, Palmiero juiced, 54% of the players suspended for using performance enhancing drugs have been pitchers. Where is all the uproar over these guys? There is none. Bonds is the face of AAS in baseball. The rest get a pass.
Bonds is entitled to a trial before he is formally judged by a jury. Seems like you and everyone that has a job on ESPN has forgotten that little fact, skipped the trial and proceeded straight to judgment.
But to repeat my point - there should have never been a grand jury for Bonds to testify at in the first place. This is the point you have missed at least twice now.
You want to use Clinton - fine. Clinton was being sued for sexual harassment. You want to equate that with steroid use?
I freely admit I am pro steroid - for personal use. I am ambivalent about usage in sport. But I don’t think tax payer dollars should be wasted on cleaning up a sport that was all too happy to turn a blind eye when McGuire, and Sosa was resurrecting baseball with their homerun derby. If it wasnt a big deal then - why is it a big deal now?
[quote]58buggs wrote:
Can I ask what rule of baseball Bonds broke? Someone inform me why it is wrong to use steroids or hgh in baseball. Who is pissed that Bonds might have or not have taken a substance. Are the people that are pissed. The ones that traded in the baseball, bat & glove money. For a 5th of Mad Dog 20/20. Are the people pissed that Bonds is making money?
Here is something I cannot get. If I pay $20 mil a year. It is because I can make at least $40 mil a year off of you. Why is so, hard for people to grasp. Here is a question (not to hj). Who is the dick? Broadway Joe, for asking for mil a year or the owner of the Jet’s for paying him a mil a year.
I guess, if my trainer gives a cream and a liquid and tells me it’s balm and Omega-3. For the money I am paying him (in th Bond case). Should I not trust that my trainer has my/our vested interest at hand. So, if you, ask if I knowingly took something and I answer no. I am answering correctly.
Pisseed off, old timers. Pissed because in the 30’s, 40’s, and up through to the 80’s. The dumb fucks were getting raped by management. Pissed that they didn’t have the chance to take steroids or HGH and get paid. If they knew about steroids and HGH. They would have been taking them.
I agree the Gov’t needs stop wasting our money on this. [/quote]
There are code of conduct rules for drugs society deems illegal even if they are not specifically named.
If you think Bonds didn’t know what he was taking you are kidding yourself.
He admitted to taking “the clear” by referring to it by that name. But it is supposed to be green, not clear.
Hmmm?
Time will tell…
Is A-Rod clean?
As a past baseball fan I really hope so.
Sadly I don’t really care that much anymore.
[quote]Mick28 wrote:
Yes, I completely understand your position on the matter. But the facts are aganist you.
You and I might not agree with the current law regarding steroids, but it is still the law. And Bonds is in the public eye…should have known better.[/quote]
It is the law. I never said it wasn’t. I think the law was made specifically to allow the Gov’t to stick their nose into areas that are none of their business, and in an effort to do so ignored the FDA, and the DEA’s advice on the subject. Those facts are indisputable.
I think the investigation centered around BALCO. They called all the clients associated with Conti’s lab if I am not mistaken. I think Bonds happened to be the only baseball player on the client list. But I could be wrong.
Thats the $64K question. Why now? Why 4 years after the fact? No one - and you can look it up - thought Bonds would be indicted after 4 years.
What was his edged prior to 1999 - 2000? He put up HOF stats well before he took an interest in Hank’s record, and well before there is any evidence suggesting any alleged performance enhancing “edge”.
[quote]Was Bonds trying to give himself an unfair edge by taking steroids?
And you can’t say that everyone has that same opportunity. Sure anyone can break the law, but many choose to play by the rules. Should they be penalized for doing that? That’s what happens when one player has an unfair advantage.[/quote]
I don’t think there are nearly as many playing by the rules as you think. It wasn’t just one player. You are making my point for me - especially when you want to single out Bonds, when he has never tested positive for any banned substance. Do I think he juiced? Yes I do. Is that reason enough to single him out? I don’t think so.
[quote]McGuire juiced, Palmiero juiced, 54% of the players suspended for using performance enhancing drugs have been pitchers. Where is all the uproar over these guys? There is none. Bonds is the face of AAS in baseball. The rest get a pass.
I don’t know that McGuire admitted to juicing. But I admit I have not followed his career that closely.
Did you read this somewhere? If you don’t know about him and the other players then it looks like you should not say it…right?
Innocent before proven guilty…right?[/quote]
And Bonds doesn’t deserve the same courtesy? The names and the numbers I got from yet another ESPN talkng head chat session about Bonds.
Palmiero freely admitted to juicing. McGuire freely admits to taking andro - which is considered a pro-steroid. Those suspended were caught, and the league possessed enough proof to have them suspended, and survive the protest hearing. I would say I have more right to use these examples than anyone does to use Bonds as an example - unless you can come up with some hard proof that he took steroids.
Other than gambling - what illegal activities has gov’t involved themselves in sports?
When congress creates a law in direct opposition to the advice of the departments charged with its enforcement, yes - I get very upset. COnsidering the type of website T-Nation is - or was - I will be more vocal about it here than I would other bullshit laws.
I disagree. If he juiced - which you have absolutely no proof that he did - I would say he did it to earn the millions. Look at the timing of the proliferation of salaries and the proliferation of alleged steroid abuse. The proximity one to another is probably not a coincidence.
People could give a shit if bonds was juicing when they are watching him take batting practice, and hitting tape measure after tape measure. His salary is bigger than life - so should his exploits.
I think it is hilarious that you can speak for all the fans of baseball, try and convict Bonds and then tell me the facts are against me. You have yet to produce anything but your opinion.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
58buggs wrote:
Can I ask what rule of baseball Bonds broke? Someone inform me why it is wrong to use steroids or hgh in baseball. Who is pissed that Bonds might have or not have taken a substance. Are the people that are pissed. The ones that traded in the baseball, bat & glove money. For a 5th of Mad Dog 20/20. Are the people pissed that Bonds is making money?
Here is something I cannot get. If I pay $20 mil a year. It is because I can make at least $40 mil a year off of you. Why is so, hard for people to grasp. Here is a question (not to hj). Who is the dick? Broadway Joe, for asking for mil a year or the owner of the Jet’s for paying him a mil a year.
I guess, if my trainer gives a cream and a liquid and tells me it’s balm and Omega-3. For the money I am paying him (in th Bond case). Should I not trust that my trainer has my/our vested interest at hand. So, if you, ask if I knowingly took something and I answer no. I am answering correctly.
Pisseed off, old timers. Pissed because in the 30’s, 40’s, and up through to the 80’s. The dumb fucks were getting raped by management. Pissed that they didn’t have the chance to take steroids or HGH and get paid. If they knew about steroids and HGH. They would have been taking them.
I agree the Gov’t needs stop wasting our money on this.
There are code of conduct rules for drugs society deems illegal even if they are not specifically named.
If you think Bonds didn’t know what he was taking you are kidding yourself.
He admitted to taking “the clear” by referring to it by that name. But it is supposed to be green, not clear. [/quote]
You think Marion is rattin on Barry? otherwise I can’t see how they can prove that Barry knew what he was taking. None of the athletes around him said they knew, Greg anderson isn’t telling, Victor’s already serving.
Everyone’s making some good points but there is far from a consensus, and I didn’t expect one. I do think we can look at how all of the various sports have handled the “performance-enchancing drug problem” and agree, that Major League Baseball has handled the problem worse than any other sport (second prize goes to cycling). I agree the government had no fucking business getting involved. Other sports, like the NFL, undoubtedly with high percentage gear users, has a very clear substance abuse policy that treats banned drugs fairly equally, and then suspends their athletes for increasing lengths of time with each progressive violation. I’m not saying this is the best way, but it is a HELL of a lot better than putting a call into Washington, D.C. to strongarm baseball into an anti-steroid inquisition. Once that happened, it was no win, for baseball, the fans, and for guys like Bonds. Get real, we know he was juicin’, he’s got acromegaly in his head from HGH abuse-any doctor could diagnose that from across the room. But he really was in a no win-admit it, he gets crucified right away, deny it, he gets crucified later. The goverment wanted him as their trophy buck, and I would suspect they have enough evidence that he used and lied about the use to make it stick. It does smell like somebody just rolled over. We’ll see.