Barack: 'Typical White People'

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
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[quote]
Sloth wrote:
I say caution, because that’s all it is. Not blind, running down the street screaming panic, but caution

Professor X wrote:

You actually think that Obama meant that white people are “blind running down the street screaming panic” afraid? Yes, you are arguing semantics all while faking offense at what you yourself admit is the truth…as long as no one calls it “fear”.[/quote]

This is horse manure. You’re assuming your conclusion, which is that culture equals race. This has been specifically disputed, and your contention certainly hasn’t been proved. People are going to react differently to a black guy in a business suit than to a black guy in hip-hop gear, just like they will react differently to a white guy in a business suit than to a white guy in black-leather Harley gear - even if the guy in the suit in a summer intern and the guy dressed like the biker happens to be a dentist.

Also, as a second point, it’s not just white people who have a reaction:

Obama's Rorschach speech on race in America | The Smirking Chimp [Also an interesting take on Obama’s speech, but I’m linking for the first two paragraphs]

and the piece de resistance:

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=219827

BTW, catching up after the weekend, and I’m not going to read every post on this thread. I’m purposefully reading only posts by people to whom I would normally respond. In fact, please do not assume I’ve read anything on this site unless I respond to it.

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[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

This is horse manure. You’re assuming your conclusion, which is that culture equals race. This has been specifically disputed, and your contention certainly hasn’t been proved.

[/quote]

That wasn’t my “conclusion” at all. If that was the case, I wouldn’t have written:

The “conclusion”, dear Watson, was that whites in majority see a certain style of clothing as relating to a criminal even though that style does not have that same meaning across different cultures in this country.

Can you comprehend the difference?

[quote]
People are going to react differently to a black guy in a business suit than to a black guy in hip-hop gear, just like they will react differently to a white guy in a business suit than to a white guy in black-leather Harley gear - even if the guy in the suit in a summer intern and the guy dressed like the biker happens to be a dentist.[/quote]

This is simply more culture bias and since many young blacks are more likely to follow that “despised” style of clothing, who gets discriminated against in majority?

Well, maybe you should read more first. We’ve been through some of this already. I even stated I wouldn’t post again in this thread but only did because you posted to me.

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[quote]Professor X wrote:
…

I can guarantee if Obama had said, “The Typical black person in America will probably choose a Baptist church, especially in the South”, that no one would have taken offense. Why? It is because it is pretty much true even though I personally was raised Pentecostal. What he stated wasn’t even an insult. It was a FACT that nearly every single poster eventually admitted in this thread but called it “caution” as if they really thought Obama meant White people run screaming from the room the moment a black person walks in.

It means not one white person anywhere has the right to act like they are being degraded by “typical white person”. In fact, they don’t even seem to be personally offended. They are simply ranting so they can look like victims.
…[/quote]

I don’t think this is the main point. The main point is that on numerous occasions people have taken offense to ascribing a “typical black person” with any particular traits, because this is stereotyping. Acting on that is statistical discrimination - which sometimes makes sense, particularly when the cost of gaining particular individual information is high and the benefits are low (like when you’re walking down the street, for example). Crashing Into Stereotypes - Econlib ; Giles and Stereotype Accuracy - Econlib

I’m glad that you are now agreeing that some stereotypes have a basis in truth, and that they are useful when you are trying to talk about groups of people - the abuse of logic involved with “stereotyping” is when the general characteristics of a group are automatically assigned to any individual member of that group in a situation in which you have more particular information, or should be getting more particular information (e.g., job interview or school application). I believe I started a thread to that affect a while back, and you argued against me for pages.

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[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:

This is horse manure. You’re assuming your conclusion, which is that culture equals race. This has been specifically disputed, and your contention certainly hasn’t been proved.

Professor X wrote:

That wasn’t my “conclusion” at all. If that was the case, I wouldn’t have written:
yet you all judge certain clothing as “thug wear” even though that style has pervaded every race across this country and even the world.

The “conclusion”, dear Watson, was that whites in majority see a certain style of clothing as relating to a criminal even though that style does not have that same meaning across different cultures in this country.

Can you comprehend the difference?[/quote]

Yes - the difference is that blacks are a minority population. The signals and the consequences are the same. The lesson is to be aware of the signals you are sending.

People should generally be more aware of both the messages other people intend and the messages they are sending. But the cost of information acquisition about changing fashion norms is generally not going to be taken up by middle aged people - and I assume you will agree with me that a lot of older black people have the same sort of reaction to hip hop wear, just like a lot of older white people look at younger white guys with tats and dressed in baggy skater wear and assume they would rather cross the street than find out more about them.

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
People are going to react differently to a black guy in a business suit than to a black guy in hip-hop gear, just like they will react differently to a white guy in a business suit than to a white guy in black-leather Harley gear - even if the guy in the suit in a summer intern and the guy dressed like the biker happens to be a dentist.

Professor X wrote:

This is simply more culture bias and since many young blacks are more likely to follow that “despised” style of clothing, who gets discriminated against in majority?[/quote]

A white guy with dreads, tats and piercings isn’t getting hired by a big law firm as a lawyer, paralegal or legal assistant, I’ll tell you that much (he may get a job in the mail room where clients wouldn’t see him).

[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
Also, as a second point, it’s not just white people who have a reaction:

Obama's Rorschach speech on race in America | The Smirking Chimp [Also an interesting take on Obama’s speech, but I’m linking for the first two paragraphs]

and the piece de resistance:

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=219827

BTW, catching up after the weekend, and I’m not going to read every post on this thread. I’m purposefully reading only posts by people to whom I would normally respond. In fact, please do not assume I’ve read anything on this site unless I respond to it.

Professor X wrote:

Well, maybe you should read more first. We’ve been through some of this already. I even stated I wouldn’t post again in this thread but only did because you posted to me.[/quote]

I’ll try to catch up - sorry to rehash.

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[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
If it is the duration of the comments that bother you, no problem - but that shouldn’t forestall legitimate criticism.[/quote]

Not so much the duration as the constant rehashing. I don’t mind long threads as long as the discussion evolves.

I don’t like McCain, yet when Headhunter started a thread about his endorsement by Hagee, my only response was that Hagee’s endorsement didn’t mean that McCain automatically adopted all of Hagee’s view.

In others words, I didn’t feel that criticism to have much validity; apparently I wasn’t alone since that thread rapidly dropped off the front page.

While I acknowledge that Obama’s relation with his pastor goes beyond a simple endorsement, I don’t feel the issue has much more traction than Hagee has with McCain. Of course, it’s my personal opinion. I only wish that those who differ would manage to make more forceful points, rather than base them on a fantasy image of what Obama’s past 20 years of life might have entailed.

While I’ve been replying to your posts, I didn’t really mean to target your replies specifically; even if I still feel that you’ve also been repeating already stated points for many pages.

If I say no, will you stop posting?

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I think BB’s response makes way more sense and is a better reflection of reality than the Prof.'s on this one. Age and social background play way more into this kind of reaction than race do by far. White, Black or Hispanic, if an older person sees some younger guy in either hip hop gear or some all black metal get up he is going to have a bias opinion of them more than likely.

Conversely if a white guy that is younger and grew up in a more mixed background sees someone in “hip hop” gear I seriously doubt they would have any reaction fear wise since their white buddies may dress the same way.

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[quote]storey420 wrote:
Conversely if a white guy that is younger and grew up in a more mixed background sees someone in “hip hop” gear I seriously doubt they would have any reaction fear wise since their white buddies may dress the same way.[/quote]

I bet he would still be more alert to someone in “hip hop gear” than someone in a pair of jeans that fit, a button up shirt, and a conservative haircut.

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[quote]storey420 wrote:
I think BB’s response makes way more sense and is a better reflection of reality than the Prof.'s on this one. Age and social background play way more into this kind of reaction than race do by far. White, Black or Hispanic, if an older person sees some younger guy in either hip hop gear or some all black metal get up he is going to have a bias opinion of them more than likely. Conversely if a white guy that is younger and grew up in a more mixed background sees someone in “hip hop” gear I seriously doubt they would have any reaction fear wise since their white buddies may dress the same way.[/quote]

Good point…example: I remember an older guy in the neighborhood I grew up in who went “Bill Cosby” on me because I was wearing a gold chain and had Nikes on. Thought I was just another thug kid…far from the truth.

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WET is called NBC…Do you think anyone but medicated white people liked Friends? Or Frasier?

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[quote]Sloth wrote:
storey420 wrote:
Conversely if a white guy that is younger and grew up in a more mixed background sees someone in “hip hop” gear I seriously doubt they would have any reaction fear wise since their white buddies may dress the same way.

I bet he would still be more alert to someone in “hip hop gear” than someone in a pair of jeans that fit, a button up shirt, and a conservative haircut.
[/quote]

Maybe but I know that some kids in “hip hop” type clothes are beaten up by clean cut conservative jock types in certain small towns. Seen it and heard it plenty.

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[quote]storey420 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
storey420 wrote:
Conversely if a white guy that is younger and grew up in a more mixed background sees someone in “hip hop” gear I seriously doubt they would have any reaction fear wise since their white buddies may dress the same way.

I bet he would still be more alert to someone in “hip hop gear” than someone in a pair of jeans that fit, a button up shirt, and a conservative haircut.

Maybe but I know that some kids in “hip hop” type clothes are beaten up by clean cut conservative jock types in certain small towns. Seen it and heard it plenty. [/quote]

No, that’s true. There are exceptions to everything. But, overall, I think it still stands.

253

[quote]storey420 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
storey420 wrote:
Conversely if a white guy that is younger and grew up in a more mixed background sees someone in “hip hop” gear I seriously doubt they would have any reaction fear wise since their white buddies may dress the same way.

I bet he would still be more alert to someone in “hip hop gear” than someone in a pair of jeans that fit, a button up shirt, and a conservative haircut.

Maybe but I know that some kids in “hip hop” type clothes are beaten up by clean cut conservative jock types in certain small towns. Seen it and heard it plenty. [/quote]

Ya especially, if these kids are white in the hip hop clothes, and listen to ICP, and live in a predominately white area.

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[quote]Sikkario wrote:
storey420 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
storey420 wrote:
Conversely if a white guy that is younger and grew up in a more mixed background sees someone in “hip hop” gear I seriously doubt they would have any reaction fear wise since their white buddies may dress the same way.

I bet he would still be more alert to someone in “hip hop gear” than someone in a pair of jeans that fit, a button up shirt, and a conservative haircut.

Maybe but I know that some kids in “hip hop” type clothes are beaten up by clean cut conservative jock types in certain small towns. Seen it and heard it plenty.

Ya especially, if these kids are white in the hip hop clothes, and listen to ICP, and live in a predominately white area.
[/quote]

Yeah, but those types are just asking for a good whooping.

Joking! (The ICP part)

And, I wouldn’t begrudge those that experienced such for being wary around the “Clean Cut” type. If a black or white guy look at me a little suspiciously because I’m wearing a pair of intact pants that fit, and a tucked in shirt, that’s fine! After all, I’m not talking about pulling out mace and spraying people down here.

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No I agree if you listen to ICP you pretty much deserve any ass beatings you get