OK, so this has been a long time question of mine, but always forget to ask it! When doing dynamic work (for any of the three PL lifts) and using either bands or chains you are supposed to use strait weight at percentage (50-60% of 1RM) AND the band or chains, OR you use the band or chain weight/tension as PART of the percentage calculation???
I have in the past applied the percentage to strait weight, the ADDED either implement on top of this, correct or incorrect? So when adding tension or chains I should still just be focusing on speed, and if I’m not moving fast enough take off strait weight as opposed to band or chain? I’m sorry if thats hard to follow, I’ll try to clarify if necessary. Thanks in advance!
If you are working off a percentage, chains you can add on TOP of the weight because they should be totally deloaded at the bottom. Bands you must account for the weight in the bottom of the lift since there should be significant tension still and take that off the bar weight.
You can find some of those bottom vs top tensions on Elitefts in the articles section.
James the %s are just guild lines. The bottom line is speed. When I first started really focusing on speed work 50% was too heavy with bands or chains. I needed to start with something more like 30-40%. Now, I use weight closer to the recommended %s.
Start lighter and learn the movement first. If you want, I can watch you and give you some tips/advice, but it will have to be after 5:30 or on the weekend.
[quote]Pemdas wrote:
James the %s are just guild lines. The bottom line is speed. When I first started really focusing on speed work 50% was too heavy with bands or chains. I needed to start with something more like 30-40%. Now, I use weight closer to the recommended %s.
Start lighter and learn the movement first. If you want, I can watch you and give you some tips/advice, but it will have to be after 5:30 or on the weekend. [/quote]
Sounds good, this is just something that I never really nailed down, but yeah, I’ll let you know a good time in the future.
to answer the question simply…the percentages are based off of your best competition max in full gear, except for speed bench numbers, which should be calculated off of your best raw bench. The percentage number accounts only for the straight weight, not the bands or chains.
So if your best comp squat in gear is 600lbs, and you are supposed to do 10x2@50% with green bands, you would load 300 pounds on the bar and attach a green band to each side of the bar…just as an example. As the other guys discussed, they are just guidelines.
My advice would be that if you are pretty new to this stuff, follow the percentages to a tee for a 4 week pendulum cycle without bands or chains, going up 5% for 3 weeks and then back down to the week 1% for week 4. Take note of how the weights moved. In general, the more advanced you are, the lighter the percentage is that you can use and still elicit good work…basically the more skilled you are the lower percentage you can use on speedk work. That may sound opposite of what may be common sense, but for speed works, I have seen it work and experienced it. Let me know how it goes.
Also, dont worry about how much the bands or chains add, worry more about if you have them setup proplerly. I would refer to Louies articles at www.westside-barbell.com and the dynamic effort squat and bench manual that elite fitness has published at www.elitefts.com…refer to those two sources for specifics
[quote]harbinjc wrote:
to answer the question simply…the percentages are based off of your best competition max in full gear, except for speed bench numbers, which should be calculated off of your best raw bench. The percentage number accounts only for the straight weight, not the bands or chains. So if your best comp squat in gear is 600lbs, and you are supposed to do 10x2@50% with green bands, you would load 300 pounds on the bar and attach a green band to each side of the bar…just as an example. As the other guys discussed, they are just guidelines. My advice would be that if you are pretty new to this stuff, follow the percentages to a tee for a 4 week pendulum cycle without bands or chains, going up 5% for 3 weeks and then back down to the week 1% for week 4. Take note of how the weights moved. In general, the more advanced you are, the lighter the percentage is that you can use and still elicit good work…basically the more skilled you are the lower percentage you can use on speedk work. That may sound opposite of what may be common sense, but for speed works, I have seen it work and experienced it. Let me know how it goes.[/quote]
I agree with most of this, but if you look Dave’s articles (8 Key to Success) he does suggest that beginners to speed training should use lower percentages even as low as 20%. I found this true in my own speed training. It took me awhile to work up to higher %s. Once you have it down, I agree that “intimidates” should use higher %s than elite guys.
[quote]harbinjc wrote:
to answer the question simply…the percentages are based off of your best competition max in full gear, except for speed bench numbers, which should be calculated off of your best raw bench. The percentage number accounts only for the straight weight, not the bands or chains. So if your best comp squat in gear is 600lbs, and you are supposed to do 10x2@50% with green bands, you would load 300 pounds on the bar and attach a green band to each side of the bar…just as an example. As the other guys discussed, they are just guidelines. My advice would be that if you are pretty new to this stuff, follow the percentages to a tee for a 4 week pendulum cycle without bands or chains, going up 5% for 3 weeks and then back down to the week 1% for week 4. Take note of how the weights moved. In general, the more advanced you are, the lighter the percentage is that you can use and still elicit good work…basically the more skilled you are the lower percentage you can use on speedk work. That may sound opposite of what may be common sense, but for speed works, I have seen it work and experienced it. Let me know how it goes.[/quote]
Emm in fairness, saying 50% of your best geared squat would give numerous different numbers to the same lifter. What if he’s single ply? (which I beleive he is), multiply without briefs, multiply with briefs etc etc… I’ve done almost 550lbs single ply and there’s not a hope in hell of me doing speed work with 275lb.
I was always under the impression that it should be calculated off your box squat max. Which I think would make more sense…
If he is a geared competitor, you usually use either a pair of briefs, not jacked ones preferably a loose pair, or even if you are IPF you just wear your suit with the straps down, once again preferably not an extremely jacked suit for speed squats. This is the reason why you are able to do speed work with a heavier load than speed bench, which is based off of your raw bench. This has worked for me tremedously so far and I am only in my second year competing.
Great info guys, As Hanley pointed out, i am/will be singly ply. My first geared meet is planned for late fall early winter of this year.
Pemdas is one of my friends and club members and has offered to help in out in the gym, i just had never really fully understood how to do the speed work and honestly the percentages still confused me after reading all the EFS manuals and articles on west-side, etc etc, it seems like it really is one of those things that experience and a good teacher work best for. Thank you again to all for the help!
I honestly don’t pay much attention to the weight, but after deciding which band to use (usually blue band unless my joints hurt, then I use less or no bands), I pretty much use as much weight as I feel I can move ‘fast’. Usually I start out my DE sets light and add 5 or 10 pounds a set until I feel like I am losing speed.
The weight is not important, in my opinion, for dynamic work. What is important is refining your technique and trying to move the bar as fast as possible.
[quote]harbinjc wrote:
If he is a geared competitor, you usually use either a pair of briefs, not jacked ones preferably a loose pair, or even if you are IPF you just wear your suit with the straps down, once again preferably not an extremely jacked suit for speed squats. This is the reason why you are able to do speed work with a heavier load than speed bench, which is based off of your raw bench. This has worked for me tremedously so far and I am only in my second year competing.[/quote]
Yeah, but proportionally a multiply guy will still have a higher number to work off since they’re wearing more gear, even tho both guys might have the same raw strength ya know…?
I know one will probably be wearing more supportive briefs for the speed work, but does it make THAT much of a difference?