[quote]Robert A wrote:
I don’t know if there is much interest in firearms, self defense, or law enforcement in the GAL forum.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Posting about any of those topics in PWI or GAL will result in an absolute circus. This forum seems to have the best discourse. I’m not surprised the Combat forum is the most peaceful.
[quote]WN76 wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
I don’t know if there is much interest in firearms, self defense, or law enforcement in the GAL forum.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Posting about any of those topics in PWI or GAL will result in an absolute circus. This forum seems to have the best discourse. I’m not surprised the Combat forum is the most peaceful.
[/quote]
Haha although it was not always so, it has evened out in the past couple years. I think that’s because there’s fewer of us that post here regularly, and we know and respect each other even if we don’t always agree.
Also, there might be less tendency to dick-wag when you spend so much time training in a real fighting art and you know the other guys do too.
It is ironic though that it is, indeed, the most peaceful of these forums.
Also, about three-quarters of the posters in GAL or PWI are going to answer any question pertaining to violence with some variation of, “BETTER 2 BE JUDGEED BY 6 THEN CARRYED BY 12!!!111”
Another 20 percent will be Europeans who are terrified by and condemn any sort of violence above slapping with a white glove, and spend 30 posts wondering why Americans have any guns at all.
That last five percent might speak some sense, but then four percent of them are going to be people who regularly post in the combat forum.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Also, about three-quarters of the posters in GAL or PWI are going to answer any question pertaining to violence with some variation of, “BETTER 2 BE JUDGEED BY 6 THEN CARRYED BY 12!!!111”
Another 20 percent will be Europeans who are terrified by and condemn any sort of violence above slapping with a white glove, and spend 30 posts wondering why Americans have any guns at all.
That last five percent might speak some sense, but then four percent of them are going to be people who regularly post in the combat forum.
[/quote]
My personal favorite is “Get your CCW!”. You’re wearing a gun, not the Iron Man suit.
[quote]WN76 wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Also, about three-quarters of the posters in GAL or PWI are going to answer any question pertaining to violence with some variation of, “BETTER 2 BE JUDGEED BY 6 THEN CARRYED BY 12!!!111”
Another 20 percent will be Europeans who are terrified by and condemn any sort of violence above slapping with a white glove, and spend 30 posts wondering why Americans have any guns at all.
That last five percent might speak some sense, but then four percent of them are going to be people who regularly post in the combat forum.
[/quote]
My personal favorite is “Get your CCW!”. You’re wearing a gun, not the Iron Man suit. [/quote]
Right. And a gun is tremendously dangerous to the wearer if he is an asshole and doesn’t know how to use it.
On top of that, one is just not able to get CCW’s in some states… and even then, you’re not always gonna have that fuckin gun on you.
Dealing with the unwashed masses on this topic is particularly frustrating.
Excellent responses from all and I am in total agreement about the combat forum, as Irish stated , when you train and work in a serious fighting art, there is less “dick-wagging”. The vast majority on this forum know what they are doing.
as a side note: going to your knees in a gunfight is the first step in measuring your coffin. Yes,you are more stable, but, your mobility is gone. Without the ability to change range, cover, concealment, etc…, you have just lowered your center mass/head (as Mapwrap said) in the kill zone.
Study reports on LEO shootings and you will see a large percentage of wounds to the hands. Most untrained people or those who do not train under stress, will actually be looking at the gun in your hand as they shoot, same for a large majority of LEO’s. Go to your knees, and that gun is in your hand will be a beacon for a head shot.
In combat operations, you dont see this as much, due to the longer sight radius of the rife and the trained response for the warfighter is to seek cover ASAP. Most untrained enemy insurgents think spray and pray is the best way to kill us infidels, which results in leg wounds from low shots or lucky head shots when the weapon starts rising.
Ove the last couple of years, there has been an increase in the enemy wearing personal body armor, especially a ground assualt team (usually between 5 and 7). These are the guys who follow in a suicide bomber driving a VBIED. Not only are they wearing armor, but, usually packing explosive vests to detonate before dying.( Google the Kabul restaurant attack from a month ago) There has been a move to train for shooting to break the hips, just stopping the advance. As we all know head shots are very difficult in the real world.
Map and Win,
are you seeing any movement on this in the civilian LEO training?
Idaho,
I have heard of that technique (aiming for the pelvic girdle to stop the advance). I think the first time I heard it was about two years ago, from one of our range personnel. My understanding is that it’s what a lot of the special operations types had gone to in Afghanistan if they were down to pistols…destroy the pelvic girdle, let the bad guy hit the ground, and then close for a head shot.
Part of that discussion led to the fact that our military personnel are hamstrung by using only ball ammunition (assuming they are following the rules, of course…which I hope they are NOT). While I love my Glock 34, if I was in a position that I was only allowed to use ball ammo, I’d definitley be switching to the Glock 21 in all of its .45 caliber glory. (Which reminds me…Glock now offers the 41, which is the long slide, “practical tactical” .45…haven’t had the chance to shoot that one yet.)
In any case…we haven’t started training that on the LEO side of the house. I’d be interested to hear from operators in a combat zone to know if that technique is effective. In theory, it should work.
Also…RobertA…I will work on the limerick. Seems like a fair toll to pay to remain in a good forum.
On that note…I must say that this is about the only forum I read anymore, and definitely the only one I post on. I like the lack of ego over here. I think there is some truth to the theory that people who train for violence are the ones least likely to want to use it. Particularly as I grow older, there are FAR fewer things I’m willing to go to blows over. I much prefer talking my way past most things.
Not trying to get this too off topic but since it was brought up. One big difference between this forum and the others is that on PWI or GAL posters will talk about how they would respond with violence over whatever perceived offense and will lament about how the only thing stopping them at times is the law. They are, by their own account, ready, willing and able to use violence with no moral reservations. The one thing they don’t ask, and this is the difference, is if whatever they believe is worth kicking someone’s ass over is worth having their own ass kicked over…or worse.
I think, rather I know, I have read more about avoiding a physical confrontation on here than on the other forums and this is the COMBAT one. Even on this thread the conversation is revolving around how not to get killed in a gunfight. There is an assumption that a fight goes both ways.
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Idaho,
I have heard of that technique (aiming for the pelvic girdle to stop the advance). I think the first time I heard it was about two years ago, from one of our range personnel. My understanding is that it’s what a lot of the special operations types had gone to in Afghanistan if they were down to pistols…destroy the pelvic girdle, let the bad guy hit the ground, and then close for a head shot.
Part of that discussion led to the fact that our military personnel are hamstrung by using only ball ammunition (assuming they are following the rules, of course…which I hope they are NOT). While I love my Glock 34, if I was in a position that I was only allowed to use ball ammo, I’d definitley be switching to the Glock 21 in all of its .45 caliber glory. (Which reminds me…Glock now offers the 41, which is the long slide, “practical tactical” .45…haven’t had the chance to shoot that one yet.)
In any case…we haven’t started training that on the LEO side of the house. I’d be interested to hear from operators in a combat zone to know if that technique is effective. In theory, it should work.
Also…RobertA…I will work on the limerick. Seems like a fair toll to pay to remain in a good forum.
On that note…I must say that this is about the only forum I read anymore, and definitely the only one I post on. I like the lack of ego over here. I think there is some truth to the theory that people who train for violence are the ones least likely to want to use it. Particularly as I grow older, there are FAR fewer things I’m willing to go to blows over. I much prefer talking my way past most things. [/quote]
Thanks, I appreciate the response. I will do some checking around on the hip shots over here (Afghanistan) Speaking of the Glock 41, I thought you would enjoy this. Jerry Miculek is an incredible shot with any firearm, plus i love his friendly, easy going manner.His new target system is really something I want to try ( I believe about 6 or 7 minutes in the video)
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Not trying to get this too off topic but since it was brought up. One big difference between this forum and the others is that on PWI or GAL posters will talk about how they would respond with violence over whatever perceived offense and will lament about how the only thing stopping them at times is the law. They are, by their own account, ready, willing and able to use violence with no moral reservations. The one thing they don’t ask, and this is the difference, is if whatever they believe is worth kicking someone’s ass over is worth having their own ass kicked over…or worse.
I think, rather I know, I have read more about avoiding a physical confrontation on here than on the other forums and this is the COMBAT one. Even on this thread the conversation is revolving around how not to get killed in a gunfight. There is an assumption that a fight goes both ways. [/quote]
Haha yea the average person not well-acquainted with violence tends to forget that bullets fly both ways.
It’s harder to ignore that when you’ve taken a beating in sparring and known that you just can’t get the energy to punch back, or when the darkness starts closing in on you when you’re caught in a triangle whilst rolling and you realize that the dude could kill you right then if he so chose.
I have said before that it’s a humbling experience.
Watching your buddies get beat half to death in the street at various times in barfights will have the same affect.
Thanks for the link, Idaho,
Jerry Miculek is just so phenomenal, the English language doesn’t have sufficient words to explain his ability. I have seen him perform some absolutely super-human feats with a pistol…or at least seemingly so.
Boy…this thread has jumped all over the map, hasn’t it?
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Thanks for the link, Idaho,
Jerry Miculek is just so phenomenal, the English language doesn’t have sufficient words to explain his ability. I have seen him perform some absolutely super-human feats with a pistol…or at least seemingly so.
Boy…this thread has jumped all over the map, hasn’t it? [/quote]
I totally agree about Jerry, I wish , I had just a tenth of his skill. LOL…this thread is like a dirt road through the desert, never know where you are going to end up. Let’s blame it on Robert, he started it…
I thought about starting a new topic about this, but, since most of the LEO’S/trainers/fighters are commenting on this one, lets just keep it here.
First, my sincere condolences to the familes of the officer who was killed, and the one who is still fighting for his life. As often the case, both were experienced cops, the one who died had 21 years on the force, the other 9. Both were members of the fugitive squad. Unfortunately, we always learn something AFTER a cop dies, a mental lapse in tactics, poor judgement, inferior firearms training, the list goes on.
Map, WN, Others,
Being in the middle of nowhere, I will only read about the shooting , based on what the mass media gives me. If you obtain information on what really happened and what lead to the shootings, please pass along. There is some comfort knowing another cop killed the asshole, but, that rings hollow againist his impending funeral.
I’ll let you know what I hear. I’m not so far removed from Phoenix that I won’t learn something in the next day or two.
Very sad…21 years in, you figure you’re probably gonna get to retire. That just sucks.
[quote]WN76 wrote:
Posting about any of those topics in PWI or GAL will result in an absolute circus. This forum seems to have the best discourse. I’m not surprised the Combat forum is the most peaceful.
[/quote]
A fun circus, or…
As a rule I limit my posts in GAL to zombie show or video game threads. I got sucked into a Mayweather boxing thread there and it was like an alternate universe.
[quote]WN76 wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Also, about three-quarters of the posters in GAL or PWI are going to answer any question pertaining to violence with some variation of, “BETTER 2 BE JUDGEED BY 6 THEN CARRYED BY 12!!!111”
Another 20 percent will be Europeans who are terrified by and condemn any sort of violence above slapping with a white glove, and spend 30 posts wondering why Americans have any guns at all.
That last five percent might speak some sense, but then four percent of them are going to be people who regularly post in the combat forum.
[/quote]
My personal favorite is “Get your CCW!”. You’re wearing a gun, not the Iron Man suit. [/quote]
I really don’t think that necessarily bad advice, but it is such a small part of a workable “answer”.
Regards,
Robert A
I consider weapons to be tools, so they enhance one’s ability to perform a task. They don’t confer magic powers, function as totems, or anything else. I will say that they do generally offer advantages over finger nails and bad language when facing aggression, hence why they exist.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Right. And a gun is tremendously dangerous to the wearer if he is an asshole and doesn’t know how to use it.
[/quote]
Idiots are dangerous regardless. I am not convinced firearms are any more dangerous than automobiles, medications, or fire. Of course none of that disagrees with what you wrote. I quoted more as an excuse to post this.
And this
Regards,
Robert A
RE: .45 vs 9mm with FMJ
I am not sure the .45 buys you all that much over the 9mm. I think bullet profile is going to play a bigger role. Both the 9mm and .45 standard “ball” rounds will tend to push soft tissue out of the way and the wound size will be less than the total diameter. With solids the science seems to favor flat profiles because they crush more tissue. This jives with normal logic, dull knives make a bigger mess on the cutting board, and hunters who use solids tend to gravitate towards flat meplates (the bigger the better).
The only service caliber I am aware of where a flat point is the de facto standard is the .40 S&W or the 10mm. So trading the Glock 34 for a 35 might be a better move. Of course if you could source a flat meplate round in either 9mm or .45 that could be used that might also work for the thought exercise. I know Magtech loads jacketed semi wadcutters and some other makers make flat point(think JHP with no hollow point) profile rounds.
Of course the .45 would always make an incrementally larger hole, and tend to suffer less deflection through intermediate barriers(auto glass, arms, etc.) but those advantages are there now and I don’t think they get any more significant if you are saddled with substandard ammo.
RE: Pelvic Girdle Shots
I think those came up in one of the old wound ballistics threads. I remember saying I thought they could be a viable (everything else sucks option) which put me in disagreement with, I think, Cephalic_Carnage, and definitely the opinion of Dr. Martin Fackler.
I have to ask are we talking about the hip joint proper or just the pelvic girdle in general? Because I cannot see an actual hip joint shot as being less difficult than a headshot.
Regards,
Robet A
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
I’ll let you know what I hear. I’m not so far removed from Phoenix that I won’t learn something in the next day or two.
Very sad…21 years in, you figure you’re probably gonna get to retire. That just sucks.[/quote]
I can only think that he felt what he was doing was important enough to him, to the community, etc. that he was willing to put off the pension checks and sleeping in to keep doing what he was doing. I hope no one takes his sacrifice lightly.
I can only wish his family peace, and hope that the other officer pulls through.
To those members of this board who put themselves in similar jeopardy, thank you for your service.
Stay Safe
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
I’ll let you know what I hear. I’m not so far removed from Phoenix that I won’t learn something in the next day or two.
Very sad…21 years in, you figure you’re probably gonna get to retire. That just sucks.[/quote]
I can only think that he felt what he was doing was important enough to him, to the community, etc. that he was willing to put off the pension checks and sleeping in to keep doing what he was doing. I hope no one takes his sacrifice lightly.
I can only wish his family peace, and hope that the other officer pulls through.
To those members of this board who put themselves in similar jeopardy, thank you for your service.
Stay Safe
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Good Post , Robert, and I also hope his sacrifice is not taken lightly, but, I am a cynical, pessimistic, and angry bastard, so, his “community” probably gives a shit less about him dying.
We were speaking in general terms for the pelvic girdle, I agree, a hip from the side, is not much of target zone, especially in the stress of combat. I was on the range this morning with a local SRT, armed with M-16’s and few M-4’s, Glock 9MM’s. After the live fire training, I strapped a training dummy with a ballistic armor “diaper” or groin protector, that reminds me of a Kevlar speedo, a old Soviet made ballistic vest from the 80’s and decided to practice some “pelvic shots”.
Well, our local ninjas had a hard time putting a bullet into that area, seems the gap between the vest and groin protector were a little too challenging for their fertile minds. Forget the side “hip shot” until another month of training.
Ran the course myself with my M-6( sweet, sweet, weapon). Hard for me to negate years of training, to not shoot center mass, had no problem with accuracy, but, found myself shooting out the knees just as easy. Anyway, a work in progress, but, shooting is the best cure for when a brother officer dies in the line of duty.