[quote]Robert A wrote:
I really don’t think that necessarily bad advice, but it is such a small part of a workable “answer”.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Agreed, but it’s a lot like asking for advice on swapping out the transmission in your Jeep and hearing “Get the Haynes manual and start wrenchin’!”
I agree with you Robert…we don’t really even think about retiring and pension checks when we are at work. I was just saying that when a guy hits 21 years, you can start to see some light at the end of the tunnel, you know? I hate to see any fellow officer go down, but when it’s a truly veteran officer, it bothers me a little more, for some reason. I totally understand that bullets don’t discriminate vets from rookies…maybe I’m just bothered by it cos I’m more than halfway there myself.
Anyway…in reference to the .45 vs 9mm hardball…I dunno. I know the history on the .45 round, as I’m sure you do, and how well it performed when it was initially introduced. I have heard poor anectodal comments in the 9mm performance in FMJ, whereas I have not heard those in reference to .45. Either way…I get to carry expanding ammo, so it doesn’t impact my decision as much. I’m very happy with my 34 for a lot of reasons. I don’t figure on needing to trade it in towards anything new anytime in the near future.
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
I agree with you Robert…we don’t really even think about retiring and pension checks when we are at work. I was just saying that when a guy hits 21 years, you can start to see some light at the end of the tunnel, you know? I hate to see any fellow officer go down, but when it’s a truly veteran officer, it bothers me a little more, for some reason. I totally understand that bullets don’t discriminate vets from rookies…maybe I’m just bothered by it cos I’m more than halfway there myself.
[/quote]
Understandable.
Also, from the outside looking in it is more disturbing when someone who knows is killed. A quote from Thomas Harris is “Technique is the religion of dangerous trades.” A lot of training is done in the faith that being proficient enough brings a degree of safety. When an expert falls, it shakes that a little and is a reminder of just how much luck/factors out of our control can shape things.
[quote]
Anyway…in reference to the .45 vs 9mm hardball…I dunno. I know the history on the .45 round, as I’m sure you do, and how well it performed when it was initially introduced. I have heard poor anectodal comments in the 9mm performance in FMJ, whereas I have not heard those in reference to .45. Either way…I get to carry expanding ammo, so it doesn’t impact my decision as much. I’m very happy with my 34 for a lot of reasons. I don’t figure on needing to trade it in towards anything new anytime in the near future.[/quote]
The 9mm caused appreciably more trauma on head shots than the .45 in the original cadaver studies. So if anyone asks you why you carry a nine say “better for head shots”.
A saying in research is “the plural of anecdote is not data”, but I agree that there is a lot of anecdotal info about .45 being better with ball. However I think part of that is perception and part of it is correlation. For a long time .45 was somewhat synonymous with Gunsight disciples/tuned 1911’s in this country. I suspect a large amount of the “success” is attributable to the more squared away, better trained men having .45’s than a real ballistic advantage.
From a logic/intellectual honesty perspective I cannot come up with an advantage that .45 ball would have over 9mm that would not also be present with with similarly constructed JHP’s.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]WN76 wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
I really don’t think that necessarily bad advice, but it is such a small part of a workable “answer”.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Agreed, but it’s a lot like asking for advice on swapping out the transmission in your Jeep and hearing “Get the Haynes manual and start wrenchin’!”
[/quote]
Yup, except you can let the tranny sit when you get into trouble. The type of problems a gun helps me solve are true emergencies. Meaning things that if I take to long to respond, aren’t emergencies anymore.
Hence why so many on this board put such a premium on avoiding bad tactical situations and seeing things coming sooner.
I always thought the “when seconds count the police are just minutes away” quip would be twice as true for cops except you sub “back up” for “police”.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]idaho wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
I’ll let you know what I hear. I’m not so far removed from Phoenix that I won’t learn something in the next day or two.
Very sad…21 years in, you figure you’re probably gonna get to retire. That just sucks.[/quote]
I can only think that he felt what he was doing was important enough to him, to the community, etc. that he was willing to put off the pension checks and sleeping in to keep doing what he was doing. I hope no one takes his sacrifice lightly.
I can only wish his family peace, and hope that the other officer pulls through.
To those members of this board who put themselves in similar jeopardy, thank you for your service.
Stay Safe
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Good Post , Robert, and I also hope his sacrifice is not taken lightly, but, I am a cynical, pessimistic, and angry bastard, so, his “community” probably gives a shit less about him dying.
We were speaking in general terms for the pelvic girdle, I agree, a hip from the side, is not much of target zone, especially in the stress of combat. I was on the range this morning with a local SRT, armed with M-16’s and few M-4’s, Glock 9MM’s. After the live fire training, I strapped a training dummy with a ballistic armor “diaper” or groin protector, that reminds me of a Kevlar speedo, a old Soviet made ballistic vest from the 80’s and decided to practice some “pelvic shots”.
Well, our local ninjas had a hard time putting a bullet into that area, seems the gap between the vest and groin protector were a little too challenging for their fertile minds. Forget the side “hip shot” until another month of training.
Ran the course myself with my M-6( sweet, sweet, weapon). Hard for me to negate years of training, to not shoot center mass, had no problem with accuracy, but, found myself shooting out the knees just as easy. Anyway, a work in progress, but, shooting is the best cure for when a brother officer dies in the line of duty.
[/quote]
Speaking anatomically, the hip joint is going to be smaller and likely more difficult to discern than a head shot. This sort of throws the rational of using it because a headshot is not viable out the window in a lot of scenarios. “Pelvic Girdle” is quite a bit different.
General question:
When “center mass” gets written, what exactly are we talking about here? Actual center mass, B-27 target center mass(center of torso), or center of the thoracic cavity?
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]WN76 wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
I really don’t think that necessarily bad advice, but it is such a small part of a workable “answer”.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Agreed, but it’s a lot like asking for advice on swapping out the transmission in your Jeep and hearing “Get the Haynes manual and start wrenchin’!”
[/quote]
Yup, except you can let the tranny sit when you get into trouble. The type of problems a gun helps me solve are true emergencies. Meaning things that if I take to long to respond, aren’t emergencies anymore.
Hence why so many on this board put such a premium on avoiding bad tactical situations and seeing things coming sooner.
I always thought the “when seconds count the police are just minutes away” quip would be twice as true for cops except you sub “back up” for “police”.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
That’s not what I meant, but I agree.
A lot of people think being armed is enough, but you need to put the work in to receive it’s benefits.
[quote]WN76 wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]WN76 wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
I really don’t think that necessarily bad advice, but it is such a small part of a workable “answer”.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Agreed, but it’s a lot like asking for advice on swapping out the transmission in your Jeep and hearing “Get the Haynes manual and start wrenchin’!”
[/quote]
Yup, except you can let the tranny sit when you get into trouble. The type of problems a gun helps me solve are true emergencies. Meaning things that if I take to long to respond, aren’t emergencies anymore.
Hence why so many on this board put such a premium on avoiding bad tactical situations and seeing things coming sooner.
I always thought the “when seconds count the police are just minutes away” quip would be twice as true for cops except you sub “back up” for “police”.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
That’s not what I meant, but I agree.
A lot of people think being armed is enough, but you need to put the work in to receive it’s benefits.
[/quote]
Shit, sorry. I took wrenchin’ as more of an experiment than actually hoping for a good outcome.
I don’t at all disagree with your point. I was just dense.
Regards,
Robert A
General question:
"When “center mass” gets written, what exactly are we talking about here? Actual center mass, B-27 target center mass(center of torso), or center of the thoracic cavity? "
I guess “center mass” is an over used statement. It is commonly used in training because it is easy to understand, and if you are using a interpreter, it usuallly translates well. If you can get a trainee to visualize a vertical line drawn from the chin to the belt buckle, about 18 to 22 inches, depending on height, and, a horizontal line from armpit to armpit, you want that bullet to hit where the lines intersect. I know this is as clear as mud, but, if get your shot in that area first, then you are ahead of the game. Now, I am talking about a rifle round. Even your enemy is wearing heavy body armor, it will disrupt his aim, mind set, balance, etc…giving you a chance for a killing shot.
That was the point about the pelvic shots, stop the forward movement.
A case in point: I was about 25 yards from a soldier who took a AK round in the chest. He wearing ceramic plates and it stopped the round, but, knocked him flat on his back. He recovered very quickly and crawled under some cover. Point being, if it had been through the pelvic/ hip, I dont think he would have been able to move on his own.
I guess, it just comes down to putting bullets into your enemy as accurately and as fast as you can.
[quote]idaho wrote:
General question:
"When “center mass” gets written, what exactly are we talking about here? Actual center mass, B-27 target center mass(center of torso), or center of the thoracic cavity? "
I guess “center mass” is an over used statement. It is commonly used in training because it is easy to understand, and if you are using a interpreter, it usuallly translates well. If you can get a trainee to visualize a vertical line drawn from the chin to the belt buckle, about 18 to 22 inches, depending on height, and, a horizontal line from armpit to armpit, you want that bullet to hit where the lines intersect. I know this is as clear as mud, but, if get your shot in that area first, then you are ahead of the game. Now, I am talking about a rifle round. Even your enemy is wearing heavy body armor, it will disrupt his aim, mind set, balance, etc…giving you a chance for a killing shot.
That was the point about the pelvic shots, stop the forward movement.
A case in point: I was about 25 yards from a soldier who took a AK round in the chest. He wearing ceramic plates and it stopped the round, but, knocked him flat on his back. He recovered very quickly and crawled under some cover. Point being, if it had been through the pelvic/ hip, I dont think he would have been able to move on his own.
I guess, it just comes down to putting bullets into your enemy as accurately and as fast as you can.
[/quote]
Thanks. That makes sense. My issue could parlty be all the anatomy/phys/ortho/etc. classes telling me “center of the bodies mass” refers to something else (realistically it would be a gut shot). The torso “x” on the B-27 target is also pretty shitty as it is just about diaphragm level and half the 9 ring will be abdominal instead of where we would want it.
What you describe is what I am familiar with as the “torso” target, but I am so much less clued in to this stuff than yourself or mapwhap I don’t want to assume too much.
In anatomy that would be mediastinum.
As far as pelvic/hip shots I wouldn’t make any assumptions. The pelvis can be described as a circle/bowl in load bearing so only fracturing one part doesn’t completely destroy its integrity. There is a lot of vasculature, but those effects may not be immediate. Depends on exactly what is hit, and figuring out exactly where those things are would be difficult so multiple rounds seem like a good idea. I am glad the soldier made it ok.
Regards,
Robert A
I’m not in a position to know anymore about the Phoenix shooting than is released to the public in general and filters through the media. In case this update is news to anyone interested.
The officer killed was Detective John Hobbs.
The wounded officer’s name is not being released.
Nice article about Det. Hobbs that describes him as heroic, and absolutely the kind of man that left the world better than he found it.
This article talks about the shooting itself.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
I’m not in a position to know anymore about the Phoenix shooting than is released to the public in general and filters through the media. In case this update is news to anyone interested.
The officer killed was Detective John Hobbs.
The wounded officer’s name is not being released.
Nice article about Det. Hobbs that describes him as heroic, and absolutely the kind of man that left the world better than he found it.
This article talks about the shooting itself.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
Thank you…Detective Hobbs was a man I would go through a door with and not worry about my back.
" the kind of man who left the world better than he found it". Should we all strive to achieve this. Very well said, thank you , Robert.
[quote]idaho wrote:
Thank you…Detective Hobbs was a man I would go through a door with and not worry about my back.
" the kind of man who left the world better than he found it". Should we all strive to achieve this. Very well said, thank you , Robert.
[/quote]
The above reads like you knew him. If so I am very sorry for your loss.
All I can really offer is the assurance that a time will come when the pain of loss fades and is eclipsed by the far greater joy for having known such people. Memory will bring not sadness, but a smile. Until that day, let what comes come. There is no shame in mourning the honored dead.
Stay Safe.
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]idaho wrote:
Thank you…Detective Hobbs was a man I would go through a door with and not worry about my back.
" the kind of man who left the world better than he found it". Should we all strive to achieve this. Very well said, thank you , Robert.
[/quote]
The above reads like you knew him. If so I am very sorry for your loss.
All I can really offer is the assurance that a time will come when the pain of loss fades and is eclipsed by the far greater joy for having known such people. Memory will bring not sadness, but a smile. Until that day, let what comes come. There is no shame in mourning the honored dead.
Stay Safe.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
I apologize, I didnt write that correctly, I did not know him. I should have said "seems like a man I could go through a door with and not worry about my back " Anyway, anytime a cop dies in the line of duty, especially shot down in a gunfight, you always feel the loss, like you worked daily with him/her…weird, I know…but, that same “pack loyalty” transfers over to whatever unit you happen to be assigned to at the time. Wise words from you, as always.
[quote]idaho wrote:
[quote]Robert A wrote:
[quote]idaho wrote:
Thank you…Detective Hobbs was a man I would go through a door with and not worry about my back.
" the kind of man who left the world better than he found it". Should we all strive to achieve this. Very well said, thank you , Robert.
[/quote]
The above reads like you knew him. If so I am very sorry for your loss.
All I can really offer is the assurance that a time will come when the pain of loss fades and is eclipsed by the far greater joy for having known such people. Memory will bring not sadness, but a smile. Until that day, let what comes come. There is no shame in mourning the honored dead.
Stay Safe.
Regards,
Robert A[/quote]
I apologize, I didnt write that correctly, I did not know him. I should have said "seems like a man I could go through a door with and not worry about my back " Anyway, anytime a cop dies in the line of duty, especially shot down in a gunfight, you always feel the loss, like you worked daily with him/her…weird, I know…but, that same “pack loyalty” transfers over to whatever unit you happen to be assigned to at the time. Wise words from you, as always.
[/quote]
No need to apologize, least of all to me.
I am often wrong, but not about what I wrote about loss. So for those you knew personally, and those you knew without having ever consider what I wrote.
Thanks.
Regards,
Robert A
On Topic of Bad Ideas:
I got to examine an early 20th century Herrington and Richardson “Safe Hammer, Double Action” .32 S&W revolver a few hours ago.
It was a shit gun, for twats.
I thought the 1934 Beretta handguns were bad.
Holy hell. This gun did not have a swing out cylinder OR a loading gate. There was just a notch to load rounds. Presumably you had to just offset the cylinder to keep rounds from falling out if the gun was tipped muzzle up. There was also no ejector rod.
Very much a “Glock Appreciation Day” experience.
Regards,
Robert A
Mapwrap,
You receive any intelligence on the Phoenix shooting you can share on an open forum? Do you know if the second officer pulled through? Thanks.
Idaho,
My apologies…I’ve been a little busy and have not been on the site much in the last few days.
Detective Hobbs’ partner, Albert Casados, was shot in the right side during the shootout. He went into emergency surgery on the same day, and did survive. He has already been released form the hospital, actually.
Both officers were part of Phoenix PD’s Major Offenders Unit, which is apparently tasked with high level fugitive apprehnsion, although I believe their mission statment is actually a little broader than that. From what I can gather, they had set up surveillance on a guy wanted for attempted murder, got burned somehow, and ended up pursuing in U/C vehicles. The bad guy wrecked out, started running on foot, and began firing at the officers as they pursued on foot. A few news agencies have made a big deal out of the fact that they weren’t wearing vests at the time, but I think you already know the realities of wearing a vest ALL the time, especially in a hot environment like Phoenix. It didn’t surprise me at all. Sometimes, you just don’t have time to throw your “jump-out” vest on, and some guys just don’t like them.
An interesting side note about Detective Hobbs…15 years ago, he and his partner at that time made the largest drug seizure in Phoenix PD history to that date…they responded to a burglary and found over a ton of cocaine in a house.
Everything else I’ve learned about Hobbs is that he was a very dedicated family man, and definitely a good guy to have around.
I apologize for not being faster with the information. The incident reminded me of a teammate I lost in 2005. Hence, I have found my walls coming up. I’m sure you know what I mean.
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Idaho,
My apologies…I’ve been a little busy and have not been on the site much in the last few days.
Detective Hobbs’ partner, Albert Casados, was shot in the right side during the shootout. He went into emergency surgery on the same day, and did survive. He has already been released form the hospital, actually.
Both officers were part of Phoenix PD’s Major Offenders Unit, which is apparently tasked with high level fugitive apprehnsion, although I believe their mission statment is actually a little broader than that. From what I can gather, they had set up surveillance on a guy wanted for attempted murder, got burned somehow, and ended up pursuing in U/C vehicles. The bad guy wrecked out, started running on foot, and began firing at the officers as they pursued on foot. A few news agencies have made a big deal out of the fact that they weren’t wearing vests at the time, but I think you already know the realities of wearing a vest ALL the time, especially in a hot environment like Phoenix. It didn’t surprise me at all. Sometimes, you just don’t have time to throw your “jump-out” vest on, and some guys just don’t like them.
An interesting side note about Detective Hobbs…15 years ago, he and his partner at that time made the largest drug seizure in Phoenix PD history to that date…they responded to a burglary and found over a ton of cocaine in a house.
Everything else I’ve learned about Hobbs is that he was a very dedicated family man, and definitely a good guy to have around.
I apologize for not being faster with the information. The incident reminded me of a teammate I lost in 2005. Hence, I have found my walls coming up. I’m sure you know what I mean.
[/quote]
No apologies necessary, I totally understand and I appreciate the information, so relieved the other officer pulled through. I have been on a detail in dead zone the last week and my internet has been erratic, hence the question while I had a connection. Thanks, again. 10-4 on the walls.
[quote]idaho wrote:
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
Idaho,
My apologies…I’ve been a little busy and have not been on the site much in the last few days.
Detective Hobbs’ partner, Albert Casados, was shot in the right side during the shootout. He went into emergency surgery on the same day, and did survive. He has already been released form the hospital, actually.
Both officers were part of Phoenix PD’s Major Offenders Unit, which is apparently tasked with high level fugitive apprehnsion, although I believe their mission statment is actually a little broader than that. From what I can gather, they had set up surveillance on a guy wanted for attempted murder, got burned somehow, and ended up pursuing in U/C vehicles. The bad guy wrecked out, started running on foot, and began firing at the officers as they pursued on foot. A few news agencies have made a big deal out of the fact that they weren’t wearing vests at the time, but I think you already know the realities of wearing a vest ALL the time, especially in a hot environment like Phoenix. It didn’t surprise me at all. Sometimes, you just don’t have time to throw your “jump-out” vest on, and some guys just don’t like them.
An interesting side note about Detective Hobbs…15 years ago, he and his partner at that time made the largest drug seizure in Phoenix PD history to that date…they responded to a burglary and found over a ton of cocaine in a house.
Everything else I’ve learned about Hobbs is that he was a very dedicated family man, and definitely a good guy to have around.
I apologize for not being faster with the information. The incident reminded me of a teammate I lost in 2005. Hence, I have found my walls coming up. I’m sure you know what I mean.
[/quote]
No apologies necessary, I totally understand and I appreciate the information, so relieved the other officer pulled through. I have been on a detail in dead zone the last week and my internet has been erratic, hence the question while I had a connection. Thanks, again. 10-4 on the walls.
[/quote]
I am also very glad Det. Casados is doing so well. I hope he has a speedy and unremarkable recovery.
Thank you for the information mapwap, and for what it is worth I don’t thik you owe any apologies either.
Except about the limerick, shit is hard to write isn’t it?
Regards,
Robert A
[quote]mapwhap wrote:
A few news agencies have made a big deal out of the fact that they weren’t wearing vests at the time,[/quote]
If these same agencies have run any “OMG, Militarization of the Police” stories in the last year they have almost one “Nonsensical Police Criticism Bingo”.
I don’t know any of those realities, other than the common sense idea that hot makes adding layers tough, and fibers designed to be dense enough to impede bullets and blades don’t exactly breath well. I definitely get how too many layers can be an issue.
I was really impressed with how thin and light soft armor has gotten at the last time I saw any. Would wearing a level IIA or maybe even just level II over a moisture wicking layer and then using a plate carrier with however much extra material is needed to prevent fragmenting/splatter as the “jump-out option” be workable? Or has that been tried and found wanting?
Regards,
Robert A