Bad Ideas

Training
241

[quote]Robert A wrote:

[quote]idaho wrote:
Now, when they got to the CHAINSAW, I had to laugh. I been through more checkpoints than I can remember, but, I have never been searched for a chainsaw…LOL [/quote]

I am guessing that is do to using stock art for the poster and the chainsaw was a “power tool”. Like they were using poster art for flammable/static free environments.

Or, they put the chainsaw there on purpose because of too many video games/zombie movies. Which I think is almost as likely. And that is terrifying.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

LoL…Zombies…I had not thought of that angle, just shows that I am out of touch with the gaming and movie industry.

Speaking of bad ideas: I think it is "bad’ that Big_Jim, Big Boss, LondonBoxer, and Darkninjaa are absent from the Combat Forum. They brought a lot of experience and enjoyable commentary to the table.

242

I am sort of “out of touch” myself.

The Geek Shit and Zombie threads were the only GAL forum threads I posted in. I stopped a while back and didn’t really pick back up.

[quote]idaho wrote:
Speaking of bad ideas: I think it is "bad’ that Big_Jim, Big Boss, LondonBoxer, and Darkninjaa are absent from the Combat Forum. They brought a lot of experience and enjoyable commentary to the table.
[/quote]

Agreed.

Regards,

Robert A

243

In the Good Ideas category we can add

Carrying off duty

Making what appears to be a “quality” decision

Off duty detective stops active shooter in mexican restraunt.

Good job to the officer. I am hoping the investigation is more or less a formality, as I have read nothing that makes it seem the officer’s actions were anything less than commendable. Literally. Give him a commendation to offset any past or future B.S. complaints for doing his job. Also, the restaurant should totally comp his meal.

Side note: It seems odd that I would want to eat at a place called “La Bodega”. Bodega’s conjure up images of all in one hair extension, cheesesteak, scratch off, EBT scam, and rolling paper dispensary. Oh, and shitty cam corder rip off DVD’s in days gone by. Can’t forget those.

Regards,

Robert A

244

Potentially REALLY BAD IDEA

SWAT Teams as private corporations?

I realize this is a Washington Post article, referring to ACLU actions, and and authored by Radley Balko so perhaps the “bad” idea is merely poorly vetted journalism/poor fact checking/agenda driven reporting and the 501(3)(c) exclusion is being applied to a charity, non-profit fund raising spin off. Something like “Golf Scramble for Wounded Cops”. Otherwise this strikes me as being a horrible, horrible idea.

Anyone have an idea if there are actual SWAT commanders thinking it is a good idea to claim they are private corporations to get around FOIA requests? I mean that can’t be correct, right?

Regards,

Robert A

245

[quote]Robert A wrote:
In the Good Ideas category we can add

Carrying off duty

Making what appears to be a “quality” decision

Off duty detective stops active shooter in mexican restraunt.

http://www.newswest9.com/story/25893410/man-shot-and-killed-by-off-duty-police-officer-in-la-bodega-restaurant-in-midland

Good job to the officer. I am hoping the investigation is more or less a formality, as I have read nothing that makes it seem the officer’s actions were anything less than commendable. Literally. Give him a commendation to offset any past or future B.S. complaints for doing his job. Also, the restaurant should totally comp his meal.

Side note: It seems odd that I would want to eat at a place called “La Bodega”. Bodega’s conjure up images of all in one hair extension, cheesesteak, scratch off, EBT scam, and rolling paper dispensary. Oh, and shitty cam corder rip off DVD’s in days gone by. Can’t forget those.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Thanks for posting. I agree, from the article, it certainly seems like a good shoot. The officer used sound tactical judgement and accurate shots, not easy to do under those conditions. Good Job. Since he is a Texas LEO, I hope Mapwrap has more indepth information.

Sidenote: Dont forget the check cashing service, for a small 10% fee. No ID? No problem, 25% fee. :))

246

[quote]Robert A wrote:
Potentially REALLY BAD IDEA

SWAT Teams as private corporations?

I realize this is a Washington Post article, referring to ACLU actions, and and authored by Radley Balko so perhaps the “bad” idea is merely poorly vetted journalism/poor fact checking/agenda driven reporting and the 501(3)(c) exclusion is being applied to a charity, non-profit fund raising spin off. Something like “Golf Scramble for Wounded Cops”. Otherwise this strikes me as being a horrible, horrible idea.

Anyone have an idea if there are actual SWAT commanders thinking it is a good idea to claim they are private corporations to get around FOIA requests? I mean that can’t be correct, right?

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

Well, I am with you, WTF???. I really do feel like I have been working on Arrakis, instead of Central Asia. I am really out of touch with US SWAT, I have never heard of this. My first impression is one of distaste, and, believe me, I am no fan of the ACLU, but, this just seems wrong. You either operate within the rules of law or you dont. Operate like a professional, do your best in all situations, make the best decisions you can, and let the chips fall where they may. Thats is all you can do. No matter how much you try, someone will always scream foul. Unless it is vital to national security, I dont see hiding behind the legal curtain.

I never worked on a “regional SWAT team”, I was Tactical Commander for a large city force. We never answered to a executive counsel, so, I dont know the legal issues involved. Feels like a setup to protect agencies from lawsuits.

Again, I really hope Mapwrap can shed some light on this. Thanks for posting

247

[quote]idaho wrote:

Well, I am with you, WTF???. I really do feel like I have been working on Arrakis, instead of Central Asia. I am really out of touch with US SWAT, I have never heard of this. My first impression is one of distaste, and, believe me, I am no fan of the ACLU, but, this just seems wrong. You either operate within the rules of law or you dont. Operate like a professional, do your best in all situations, make the best decisions you can, and let the chips fall where they may. Thats is all you can do. No matter how much you try, someone will always scream foul.
[/quote]
Strongly Agree.

Assuming that such exclusions were defined/handled narrowly I would support redacting certain information. Off the top of my head I could see some TTP’s and capabilities falling into the “blacked out” category. I realize this would be a fuzzy distinction, but I think most FOIA/disclosure requirements allow certain exclusions for such things.

[quote]
I never worked on a “regional SWAT team”, I was Tactical Commander for a large city force. We never answered to a executive counsel, so, I dont know the legal issues involved. Feels like a setup to protect agencies from lawsuits.

Again, I really hope Mapwrap can shed some light on this. Thanks for posting [/quote]

The “setup to protect from lawsuits” thing is what brings the Whiskey Tango Foxtrot the hardest for me.

If it is simply a stall to hold off on a specific FOIA request, I don’t like it and it makes me suspicious as hell.

If it is an attempt to invoke some kind of blue shield version of sovereign citizen B.S. where all definitions and relationships are subject to “rolling definition” than I find it wholly immoral and inappropriate. However I can understand the appeal of “if it helps to be a 501(3)(c) we are. If it helps to be .gov we are.”

What melts my brain is the idea that any reasoned individual would try to define their police unit/organization as a private venture if they had the choice.

Off the top of my head I have questions about:

Pay structure: Is it even legal for public funds to pay for the officers time/benefits.

Command Structure: Does this imply that a private entity is commanding government LEO’s? How the fuck does that play out? Can I get in on that?

Legality of warrants/arrests: Can private entities serve search and arrest warrants? Does this make the SWAT team basically process servers?

Weapons issues: Post '86 full auto? NFA issues with barrel length, suppressors, ect.? Hell it is Massachusets add post AWB “evil” features and pre/post magazine capacity issues are on the table. Registry? Storage?

Use of Force Issues:
I believe private citizens in MA have a “duty to retreat” when not in their home. They have a “castle doctrine” law for their own dwellings. So, how the fuck does that jive with SWAT/dynamic entries? I am not claiming to be knowledgable about SWAT entry or operational TTP’s, but I am pretty sure “always retreat if possible” isn’t best practices. I’ve got this Monty Python image of SWAT training where the brief is “Dominate the room and aggressively clear your area of responsibility. Unless there is someone in it. Then run away.”

Thing I am certain about: Qualified Immunity is not attached to non government agents/organizations. “Good faith” is not a defense against civil tort. If the organization gets to claim “private” than both the organization and its employees can be held personally liable in civil court. This at the very least puts the LEO’s personal assets at risk. I would be willing to entertain a bit of the snark with “you can quit” but this isn’t so much a policy change (giving the good/not stupid cops chances to transfer) as statement of being. Like, if its true than the cops always were private agents and can be jammed up for things that were above board when they happened but suddenly “aren’t”.

If this were Arrakis somebody’s command would be under the Crysknife.

The more I think about this it has to be fake/mis represented. It is the Washington Post which has a certain “fuck the police” tendency and Balko makes a significant portion of his income railing against the “militarization” of the police. Put the two together and maybe this was intended for the “all police actions are immoral” choir.

Regards,

Robert A

248

Hello, Idaho and Robert,

In regards to the Midland off-duty shooting…I have to confess that I have no further information. Midlan is a good 5 hrs or so form where I am, and I actually had not heard about it prior to reading about it in this thread.

Regarding the SWAT teams being classified as a corporation…let me start by saying that I think that is a poorly orchestrated attempt at simply thumbing their noses at the ACLU. Now, I will say that I have heard of regional SWAT teams. It’s fairly common here in Texas for a group of smaller towns to pool resources and manpower, and put together a regional team. I’ve mainly seen it done with simple “mutual aid” agreements between cities, but I imagine in more rural areas it may even extend to county agencies.

That being said, to claim that they are a privately held corporation just sounds like a house of cards argument. One cannot be a public servant, be paid by public funds, and enforce laws across multiple jurisdictions and then claim oneself as a private entity. I truly believe this posturing as a corporation is going to come back and bite them in the ass. It would be one thing if we were talking about a group of private contractors, whose parent company had entered into a contract with these cities, who then tried to make this claim. For example, if the former Blackwater had a contract with Boston PD to provide a SWAT response to Boston and its suburbs under a specific contract, then they might have a leg to stand on regarding the ACLU’s request.

However, that is clearly not the case here. I’m curious to see what comes of the lawsuit. I’m sure its possible that the group claiming they are a private corporation acts in that capacity regarding the management of the SWAT team in question. Perhaps, regarding the allocation of financial resources, etc it made sense to form a corporation, to the extent required on paper. However, to then fall back on that just to avoid FOIA requests is utter foolishness. I think you both already covered a number of reasons why such an approach is fraught with dangers.

I’m all for thumbing my nose at the ACLU. They are not a government agency, they have no real authority to do anything, and they are just a royal pain in the ass to the military and law enforcement alike. They are really just a bunch of professional “Pollyannas” living in an imaginary world, masquerading as “watchdogs”. I have no doubt that they will use whatever data they get from their FOIA requests as a damnation of the way the police do business, regardless of whether those tactics saved any police lives.

However, I think this corporation argument is a straw man, at best. I would bet they are going to lose the lawsuit to the ACLU. We’ll see.

249

Mapwrap: Thanks for the insight, agree strongly with you about the ACLU, an organization with “experts” on everything and practical experience in nothing.

Robert: As always, good logical insights, thanks for posting the article.

To you both: A safe and enjoyable 4th of July.

250

[quote]Robert A wrote:

I’ve got this Monty Python image of SWAT training where the brief is “Dominate the room and aggressively clear your area of responsibility. Unless there is someone in it. Then run away.”

Robert A[/quote]

LO F’n L!
I didn’t intend something like this to be my first post.
But, I find the broad references Robert A uses quite impressive. Usually amusing, and always spot in context. (esp. the above!)
I don’t always understand the full context of American law/politics, but appreciate the value of commentary by contributors such as Robert, Sento, Mapwhap and Idaho + others on these boards.

[quote]Robert A wrote:

If this were Arrakis somebody’s command would be under the Crysknife.

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

And then Dune. Very diverse.

251


Yesterday, a 19 year old male was saved from bleeding to death by the quick and skillful intervention of a seasoned combat medic. It never ceases to amaze me, how much blood can be spilled onto the filthy ground and the life still be saved. Over the past several years, I have seen remarkable work performed by these medics, in some of the most dangerous and hostile work environments on the planet. They are true heroes and on this 4th of July, a sincere and respectful salute to all you do.

In the United States: To all the Paramedics/EMT’s who work a thankless job, with a meager salary, and serve a thankless society who only know or think about you after the 911 call, I thank you, because, I was there:

When the 5 year old boy was finally pried from the wreckage and died on the stretcher, your curses loud in the night while your vision was clouded with tears.

When you were talking softly to a young woman, whose chest was completed penetrated by a 3 foot length of rebar, telling her everything would be fine, she was going to be ok, when we all knew she would be dead in 10 minutes.

When you have worked on countless shooting and stabbing victims, heart attacks, and strokes, working against the clock to stabilize, trying desperately to cheat time and make it to the emergency room.

On the this 4th of July, which we all know is a bitch to work, the calls for service coming fast and the sirens lasting long into the night, because stupidity knows no limits when alcohol and fireworks are mixed, be safe, know that you are something special. You have my respect. A salute to your dedication and courage.

252

There’s a series on Netflix called “Inside Combat Rescue” and it’s about US Air Force Pararescuemen in Afghanistan. I watched the whole season from start to finish one afternoon. I highly recommend it.

253

Renovator,

idaho should get all the credit for any Dune references. I think he mentioned Arakis earlier.

I am glad you get something from this board. There are a lot of very knowledgable folks here, then me. I am pretty sure they just keep me around because I amuse them.

Regards,

Robert A

254

idaho,

Great post.

255

The Good:

Deputy Erick Gelhaus has been no billed for his shooting of the 13 year old with the mock/airsoft AK pattern rifle.

News Artilce:

[quote]From link above:
Instead, the report by the district attorney’s office described the use of lethal force in October as “a reasonable response,” because the officer “honestly and reasonably” believed he was in danger.

“The law provides for a complete defense of anyone who defends himself or others,” District Attorney Jill Ravitch said at an afternoon news conference in Santa Rosa while several dozen protesters dismayed by the findings converged outside

According to the report, Gelhaus was on a shift with a deputy in training, Michael Schemmel, in a patrol vehicle when the pair saw Andy from the back, the replica AK-47 at his side. Schemmel pulled over and “blipped” the siren while Gelhaus jumped out of the car and called out to drop the weapon. Instead, Andy turned while raising his arm that held the plastic weapon.

Gelhaus fired eight times at the boy and hit him with all but one shot, the investigation found. Gelhaus was 67 feet away when he fired at Andy, who was 5-foot-2 and weighed 135 pounds. The entire incident took less than 20 seconds.
[/quote]

link also contains the following gems

[quote]
Gelhaus “took a life. There has to be punishment for that,” said Guillermo Ortiz, 19, who said he had known the victim. “There was nothing to lead anyone to believe that Andy was pointing a gun at him.”[/quote]
True enough Guilllermo. Nothing except the AK lookin’ pellet gun he was carrying around.

and

[quote]
“This was a decision to condone the increasing militarization of the police,” said Jonathan Melrod, a demonstration organizer and founder of the Justice Coalition for Andy Lopez.[/quote]
Yup, militarization. Before that no cop would have ever thought to fire upon someone who appeared to be pointing a gun at them.

Never
Happened
Before

I believe this attaches immunity from personal civil liability for the deputy, though I am sure the civil trial is still going to be hell.

There is talk of Fed/Civil Rights Violations.

And yes in case anyone is wondering it is that Erick Gelhaus. The Gunsite Instructor.
Link:
http://www.gunsite.com/about_us_instructors.html

Regards,

Robert A

256

The Bad, Actually potentially the really, really bad.

Forgotten Vials of Smallpox Found in Storage Room

[quote]From the link:
Government workers cleaning out an old storage room at a research center near Washington made a startling discovery last week - decades-old vials of smallpox packed away and forgotten in a cardboard box.

The six glass vials of freeze-dried virus were intact and sealed with melted glass, and the virus may well have been dead, because it wasn’t kept cold over the years, officials at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Tuesday.
[/quote]

If true this is mind boggling. I know research facilities/universities tend to have “black hole” storage rooms, but not for fucking smallpox. I am posting this in this thread because smallpox isn’t just a National security issue, it is an International security issue. If one of the teams tasked with transporting nuclear warheads around the country decided to take a break, stop at Hooters for some wings and fried pickles, and got so drunk they forgot where they parked the canned sunshine that wouldn’t have the same potential to go wrong as letting fucking small pox just hang out in a storage room.

Regards,

Robert A

257


The Ugly?

Chengdu police attract new recruits with badass posters and promises of crossbows

I just…

But…

Click the link.

http://news-round.com/world/chengdu-police-attract-new-recruits-with-badass-posters-promises-of-crossbows/

So, idaho, I notice a disturbing lack of rope in your photos. Do you feel this puts you behind the 80’s action movie prop power curve?

Mapwhap,

Will you be pulling your guys in for remedial cross bow/ninja chick training?

Regards,

Robert A

258

[quote]Robert A wrote:
The Ugly?

Chengdu police attract new recruits with badass posters and promises of crossbows

I just…

But…

Click the link.

http://news-round.com/world/chengdu-police-attract-new-recruits-with-badass-posters-promises-of-crossbows/

So, idaho, I notice a disturbing lack of rope in your photos. Do you feel this puts you behind the 80’s action movie prop power curve?

Mapwhap,

Will you be pulling your guys in for remedial cross bow/ninja chick training?

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

It appears headdress is optional. Sign me up!

259

[quote]Will207 wrote:

[quote]Robert A wrote:
The Ugly?

Chengdu police attract new recruits with badass posters and promises of crossbows

I just…

But…

Click the link.

http://news-round.com/world/chengdu-police-attract-new-recruits-with-badass-posters-promises-of-crossbows/

So, idaho, I notice a disturbing lack of rope in your photos. Do you feel this puts you behind the 80’s action movie prop power curve?

Mapwhap,

Will you be pulling your guys in for remedial cross bow/ninja chick training?

Regards,

Robert A[/quote]

It appears headdress is optional. Sign me up![/quote]

Hell yes.

Can you sneer at the camera?

I wonder what the hell even counts as policing in the PROC?

Regards,

Robert A

260

Remedial?!?!?! What makes you think they don’t train with crossbows already???

And we have hundreds of yards of white rope…as an avid fan of the tv show SWAT from the 1970’s, I think it’s painfully obvious that any tactical unit worth its salt has coils upon coils of white rope.

That allows us to not only train in “badass ninja chick”, but more importantly, in Badass Ninja Chic!! (Ahhhh…see what I did there?)