I think this will drive out illegals without much enforcement at all, if illegals know that they can and will be arrested for certain, they will look elsewhere to live and find work. You have very weak enforcement in neighboring California, Nevada, Colorado, and Utah. I think AZ is a test case for other states, if it works, more states will be inclined to follow suit. The fewer illegals you have, the less babysitting you have to do. Fewer schools needing to be built, smaller ER costs, less crime, less welfare payouts, etc. I think when you weigh it both ways, it probably balances out.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/onpolitics/post/2010/04/gov-brewer-announces-decision-on-immigration-bill/1
Arizona’s proposal would make it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally. The measure would require migrants to produce papers verifying their status when asked to do so by a police officer.[/quote]
Maybe we should make all the Mexicans wear little green and red stars on their shirts. This way we’ll know which ones they are.[/quote]
With all due respect, you can suck a fat dick. I normally don’t like to go there, but you are certainly gonna wear that one.
I had family who took care of and fed American soldiers who fought Nazis. Talk to someone who has dealt with a foreign army invading with tanks, planes, and soldiers.
You are trying to compare the destruction of entire countries and the genocide of Jews to deporting illegal aliens? Dude w.t.f. ? These people are being deported, not fucking gassed.
Honest to God, you think Tea Party people are fanning the flames about health care ? Tell me one country, other than the US, who doesn’t deport those present illegally ? I cannot think of one.
[/quote]
If there is a single, simpleminded, can’t-think-past-his-nose-poster awash in illogical prejudices on PWI it’s Irish. Even Pittbull could take him in a match in the intellectual ring.[/quote]
This is how they work Push, they need this. The argument can never be taken for face value, there always has to be some extremism. Pitt has been courteous, at least to me,
I want some of you who have never been south of the border to go down there and see what happens to you. Watch your wallet, and your ass, literally.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
If there is a single, simpleminded, can’t-think-past-his-nose-poster awash in illogical prejudices on PWI it’s Irish. Even Pittbull could bitch slap him in a match in the intellectual ring.[/quote]
fixed it.
I have an opinion; I believe the unemployment is not because of the low money wages, but the artificially low buying power, through artificially inflated money prices.
If an accountant worked for $1,200/year, it would not matter as long $1,200/year had the buying power that he has right now.
If things are efficient (not saying everything has to be efficient, but over the long run we can make more with less), then wages and prices go down. That is because we have more buying power as things become cheaper to make.
And, the only reason we are complaining about wages being low is because such things as milk production is protected from other countries that can produce milk cheaper.
[quote]Rockscar wrote:
[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Everytime I hear that line about “jobs American’s won’t do” it strikes me as funny as hell that it is always some well paid leftist talking head [/quote]
Absolutely. We need to also get our soft, entiltlement thinking teenagers out and back in the damn workforce too. [/quote]
Well, I do not think it is because they are soft and entitled, I think it is because Unions and government have basically made it illegal for them to work. When I was 11-12, I had to lie just to get a paper route, and had to lie to a child services worker saying that the veterinarian I worked for was my uncle, and that he really wasn’t paying me twenty bucks a week, I was doing it for ‘community service’ and ‘chores’ for free. See it is okay for a child to work for free, yanking around horses and running errands, but if he gets paid; That right there is down right illegal.
Why aren’t the same people who are crying about “carrying papers” also crying about being forced to have health care insurance ?
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Why aren’t the same people who are crying about “carrying papers” also crying about being forced to have health care insurance ? [/quote]
I wish I had thought about that…Stick a fork in this thread, it’s done.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Why aren’t the same people who are crying about “carrying papers” also crying about being forced to have health care insurance ? [/quote]
Real question, or just clever word play?
I support the Arizona law, and am against the federal health insurance mandate, but telling non-citizens they have to carry papers, and requiring citizens to have health insurance are hardly similar. I’m pretty sure you don’t have to present your health insurance card on demand, or face a minimum $500 fine each time.
I think we all know that the real reason so many are opposed to this, is because it will work, and the argument has long been that we need some kind of real immigration reform, because the task of enforcing immigration laws as they stand is just too great. So great, in fact, that the federal government has basically given up. And then we just HAVE to grant amnesty to all those who are here illegally, because by calling them illegals, we’re making criminals out of hard workers.
If this works in Arizona, that narrative totally falls apart. If you really get employers to stop hiring, if you really start locating, arresting and deporting people, the narrative falls apart.
I think the way in which it is similar to the healthcare debate is that, like healthcare, if the new law works, the opposition’s narrative completely falls apart, and the debate is over. If the healthcare reform works (and I don’t think it will as passed), and reduces costs and covers everyone, the debate is over: screw your ideological hangups.
If the Arizona law proves effective, and other states adopt similar laws, and effectively “solves” (or at least effectively combats) the illegal immigration problem, in this way, the debate over immigration-reform/illegals is effectively over, and those who have the “tear out boarders down” ideology lose all the pragmatist support, and the debate is over.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Why aren’t the same people who are crying about “carrying papers” also crying about being forced to have health care insurance ? [/quote]
While we agree on immigration , I can tell you the people will not cry about health coverage, I think the only people crying about the health bill are the ones that can not percieve themselves of losing their coverage
Today in Los Angeles, the city council was swindled by our public energy utility (the dept of water and power), into rate hikes in energy costs by as much as 25%, yet found the time to criticize this immigration law.
[quote]pittbulll wrote:
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Why aren’t the same people who are crying about “carrying papers” also crying about being forced to have health care insurance ? [/quote]
While we agree on immigration , I can tell you the people will not cry about health coverage, I think the only people crying about the health bill are the ones that can not percieve themselves of losing their coverage[/quote]
Why is it so hard for liberals to imagine that some people are actually driven by principles?
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Why is it so hard for liberals to imagine that some people are actually driven by principles? [/quote]
I think it’s hard for almost anyone to imagine… I mean, we’ve heard for the last 20+ years from the “Conservatives” that they were going to cut Federal spending and reign in the national debt… and those same people who still give W. Bush high approval marks, are now these same “principled” Tea Partiers protesting “taxes” and “spending”.
I would love to believe large groups of Americans are highly principled, but their voting/protesting records don’t show it.
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Why is it so hard for liberals to imagine that some people are actually driven by principles? [/quote]
I think it’s hard for almost anyone to imagine… I mean, we’ve heard for the last 20+ years from the “Conservatives” that they were going to cut Federal spending and reign in the national debt… and those same people who still give W. Bush high approval marks, are now these same “principled” Tea Partiers protesting “taxes” and “spending”.
I would love to believe large groups of Americans are highly principled, but their voting/protesting records don’t show it.[/quote]
LOL - well, what can I say? You really don’t understand the Tea Party movement. That’s first.
And I can speak personally that I have never (as far as I can remember) based my political opinons on personal gain. That’s the truth. Back when HIlarycare was being debated - I was vociferously against it; went down to DC about it, etc. And I had no health insurance. Just one example, but there are more.
And I think most Conservatives are similarly prinicpled; I think that’s one reason, among many, why liberals have such a hard time understanding Conservatives.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
It’s interesting how many duties the Government has according to the liberal mind. Oddly enough, enforcing/protecting our borders is not one of those. Neither is protecting the citizen tax-payer from being exploited by illegal foreign nationals. The federal government failed for far too long. So, when a state with a huge problem dares (how friggen dare they!) to do something effective at the state level, the Federal nit-wits and their peanut-gallery cry foul. Where the hell were you when hundreds of thousands of illegals poured into AZ? Exactly, nowhere.
Think about what the point behind posting that article was. “You are hamsters. Your job is to run the hamster wheel powering the social services to be used and bankrupted by even the likes of non-citizens. You will then be responsible for their bankruptcy, you Nazi, racist, assholes. Run the wheel and shut up.”[/quote]
without illegals the 50 million uninsured drops an awful lot…
[quote]Standard Donkey wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Maybe we should make all the Mexicans wear little green and red stars on their shirts. This way we’ll know which ones they are.[/quote]
I was wondering how long it would take for someone to say this. That is incredibly offensive language you just used, FightinIrish.[/quote]
Good.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
If there is a single, simpleminded, can’t-think-past-his-nose-poster awash in illogical prejudices on PWI it’s Irish. Even Pittbull could take him in a match in the intellectual ring.[/quote]
Ahhhh right. Logical is your middle name, Mr. Talking Snakes. I’d love you to explain the logic of the magical things that happen in your world.
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
[quote]Spartiates wrote:
[quote]katzenjammer wrote:
Why is it so hard for liberals to imagine that some people are actually driven by principles? [/quote]
I think it’s hard for almost anyone to imagine… I mean, we’ve heard for the last 20+ years from the “Conservatives” that they were going to cut Federal spending and reign in the national debt… and those same people who still give W. Bush high approval marks, are now these same “principled” Tea Partiers protesting “taxes” and “spending”.
I would love to believe large groups of Americans are highly principled, but their voting/protesting records don’t show it.[/quote]
LOL - well, what can I say? You really don’t understand the Tea Party movement. That’s first.
And I can speak personally that I have never (as far as I can remember) based my political opinons on personal gain. That’s the truth. Back when HIlarycare was being debated - I was vociferously against it; went down to DC about it, etc. And I had no health insurance. Just one example, but there are more.
And I think most Conservatives are similarly prinicpled; I think that’s one reason, among many, why liberals have such a hard time understanding Conservatives. [/quote]
I imagine it’s easier to type that than say it with a straight face.
Again, the eight years prior to Obama, we had a “principled conservative president”, and six of those eight years, conservatives controlled both houses of congress as well. Did the national debt go down? Did spending decrease? Did my freedoms expand?
The answer to all those things in no. And it’s a FACT that when polled, most of the people in the Tea Party still, to this day, even with the deficit spending, and the bailout, give him a favorable rating. TO THIS DAY.
Ron Paul is the closest I’ve seen to a really principled politician: at least he’s self-consistent. And he gets creamed in the primaries every time. Because all these self-identified principled conservatives just want low taxes… they don’t actually want to fix social-security, scale-back entitlements, cut the military budget, and end the world-wide US military presence.
Hell, I bet you’re not even for cutting the military budget, are you? Prove me wrong.
[quote]MaximusB wrote:
With all due respect, you can suck a fat dick. I normally don’t like to go there, but you are certainly gonna wear that one.
I had family who took care of and fed American soldiers who fought Nazis. Talk to someone who has dealt with a foreign army invading with tanks, planes, and soldiers.
You are trying to compare the destruction of entire countries and the genocide of Jews to deporting illegal aliens? Dude w.t.f. ? These people are being deported, not fucking gassed.
Honest to God, you think Tea Party people are fanning the flames about health care ? Tell me one country, other than the US, who doesn’t deport those present illegally ? I cannot think of one.
[/quote]
No, I am comparing the Germans blaming their problems on the Jews to the Americans blaming their problems on the Mexicans. And I’m sorry if you’ve got the GOP’s balls covering up your eyes, but that’s certainly how it looks from my end.
In this country, the officers do not have the right to randomly stop you and ask if you’re a citizen, and if you don’t have the right paperwork, they cart your ass off. What’s going to happen for all of the Mexicans who are actually citizens who don’t feel like carrying their fucking birth certificate on them all the time? So because they look dark, they’re going to have to continually prove that they were born here? Sounds good. Not like fucking profiling one bit.
And if you fools don’t think that LEOs are going to use this to harass the living fuck out of whomever they don’t like, you’re completely ignorant.
And what are you people doing? Blaming all the healthcare problems on the Mexicans, when it’s far more complicated than that. You’re simplifying a massively complex issue so you can blame the illegals… familiar? Not at all.
Get your fucking boots together folks, I think the Tea Party rallies are gonna be using some fun marching techniques.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
In this country, the officers do not have the right to randomly stop you and ask if you’re a citizen, and if you don’t have the right paperwork, they cart your ass off. What’s going to happen for all of the Mexicans who are actually citizens who don’t feel like carrying their fucking birth certificate on them all the time? So because they look dark, they’re going to have to continually prove that they were born here? Sounds good. Not like fucking profiling one bit. [/quote]
The cops have to have reasonable suspicion. They can’t randomly stop you. The entire foundation of our justice system revolves around what is reasonable. They issue warrants based on reasonable suspicion, you get detained right now based on reasonable suspicion.
If you actually read the law, it actually does little more than say that the state and local governments, and their LEOs are no longer allowed to ignore federal law. There’s very little “new law” in there.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
And if you fools don’t think that LEOs are going to use this to harass the living fuck out of whomever they don’t like, you’re completely ignorant.
[/quote]
Asshole cops do that now anyway. How does this give them more license to do it?
I’m going back to court again this week for the final stage in getting some totally bogus charges dismissed from a known-ass-hole-cop (has articles in the local paper all the time).
This is especially a bad argument to make when you frame it in terms of “pulling people over”, since there are already a number of requirements everyone, citizen or not, has to meet to go drive on the road. And the reality is, all this bill really does, is say when you get pulled over, if you have NO US state issued drivers incense, and no valid Mexican drivers license with appropriate paperwork, the cop is compelled to check your immigration status.