AZ Immigration Law Signed

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
308

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]drewh wrote:

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Doesn’t matter, the point is is that there are people who come here to fuck shit up, and that’s enough reason for this law. You want to change immigration laws, what makes you think they will enforce new laws when they can’t even force the existing ones?[/quote]
So your point is what no immigration laws? What are you bitching about then? And one bad apple shouldn’t spoil the whole bunch.[/quote]

One bad apple, huh?

One?

Tengo un poco de propiedad delantera del oceano en el Chihuahua para venderle.[/quote]
hardy har har

309

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

Also, 90% of the world’s laws being bullshit, including those of the United States, does not mean therefore that ALL laws are.

[/quote]

No. but it makes it the default positition and downright impossible to use teh word “criminal” to slander people.

Whether they are “criminals” or not is really irellevant to the discussion, it is an attempt to label them instead of trying to understand their motivations.

You might as well call them “terrorists”.

310

Illegal Immigration is trespassing…

311

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

Twist it and turn it anyway you want, but the border jumping criminals are not worthy of my respect and regard when they demonstrate that the [u]laws of my nation are below their notice if they do not suit their wants[/u]. That is just the first law they break, their first crime and then they compound it over and over again. Every border jumper is a criminal. Every one and when I say that, I also include everyone who has over-stayed their Visas or any other similar situation.
[/quote]

Ah, nonsense, your nation has a lot of laws that are worthy of contempt, as has mine.

Since it is a fair guess that every American commits at least three felonies A DAY you will have a hard time respecting anybody, including yourself.

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594032556[/quote]

Nah, not a good counterpoint. My first act in my nation wasn’t to deliberately break a law and become a criminal to achieve my wants. And to then demand more monies from the people who they are already stealing from in terms of wages, benefits, safety and life betterment.

nah, not a good one orion.

[/quote]

You are confusing two points:

A) The welfare state, which is a problem per se and

B) them trying to find work in the US, by selling drugs or in a less entrepreneurial way.

As far as the welfare state goes, that is the logic of it. If people have the “right” to whatever, yeah well, Mexicans are people too. If the right to healthcare, schooling or whatever else is as fundamental as the right to not be raped, nurdered or silenced by the state ,Mexicans have those rights too.

You are trying to make a pig fly by implicitly arguing that Americans have those rights whereas Mexicans dont, that is not the nature of rights.

As for drug smuggling…

So?

All they do is supplying goods and services Americans wantm which is incidentally what all the other Mexicans that come to the US do too.

I see no harm in consenting adults making all the deals they want and if one party is not consenting it does not make a lick of difference whether the offending party was white, brown or orange and how it got there in the first place.

312

It’s a political ploy by the Governor, facing a tough reelection. The problem was actually worse a few years ago - some Mexicans are actually leaving now since the economy took a dive. Of course, we had a Republican president up until last year, so there was no political points to be scored, in a Republican governor trying to bring the crisis to a head.

Immigration = this November’s “gay marriage crisis”… a wedge issue that will hopefully rally the base for the Right in November. That’s what is driving this issue.

313

[quote]K2000 wrote:
It’s a political ploy by the Governor, facing a tough reelection. The problem was actually worse a few years ago - some Mexicans are actually leaving now since the economy took a dive. Of course, we had a Republican president up until last year, so there was no political points to be scored, in a Republican governor trying to bring the crisis to a head.

Immigration = this November’s “gay marriage crisis”… a wedge issue that will hopefully rally the base for the Right in November. That’s what is driving this issue.
[/quote]

That is probably true.

Easier to bash some scapegoats as inefficiently as possible than adressing the real issues.

That way they will remain a problem for a long time and all the little sheeple will be occupied while they are bled dry.

314

Also, I should point out that Arizona can’t actually put much teeth into this… they’ve already requested federal funds to help pay for training (so much for a state’s robust independence from the federal octopus, IT’S STRANGLING US MAN).

Arizona won’t be able to pay to jail all the illegals (and it’s a misdemeanor to be here illegally, not even a felony). They won’t be able to pay the court costs to process everyone, or to deport everybody - I doubt it. And they won’t be able to pay to defend against any lawsuits that come up, from citizens who were stopped.

I don’t think this law is Constitutional - like pornography (the definition is ‘I know it when I see it’) the guidelines are too vague and too open to interpretation. The problem with this law is that there are probably hundreds of thousands of legal citizens who could fit the description based on a reasonable interpretation, who risk being harassed and forced to show their documentation. It’s very likely that not just illegals will be stopped.

I don’t see how anybody could say they are against a National ID or similar measures, but be for this law.

315

Not sure where you guys are getting that Mexicans are lazy. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a Mexican beggar around here.

Are you ok with other states boycotting business/trade with Arizona? Just curious.

If that’s a consequence, Arizona should be willing to take the heat, right?

316

[quote]K2000 wrote:
Also, I should point out that Arizona can’t actually put much teeth into this… they’ve already requested federal funds to help pay for training (so much for a state’s robust independence from the federal octopus, IT’S STRANGLING US MAN).

Arizona won’t be able to pay to jail all the illegals (and it’s a misdemeanor to be here illegally, not even a felony). They won’t be able to pay the court costs to process everyone, or to deport everybody - I doubt it. And they won’t be able to pay to defend against any lawsuits that come up, from citizens who were stopped.

I don’t think this law is Constitutional - like pornography (the definition is ‘I know it when I see it’) the guidelines are too vague and too open to interpretation. The problem with this law is that there are probably hundreds of thousands of legal citizens who could fit the description based on a reasonable interpretation, who risk being harassed and forced to show their documentation. It’s very likely that not just illegals will be stopped.

I don’t see how anybody could say they are against a National ID or similar measures, but be for this law.[/quote]

The way I see it, not much of anything will change in AZ, other than more deportations. I think alot of people underestimate the power cops have when reasonable suspicion and probable cause have been established. You can be detained, searched, and asked of your immigration status. So when Mr. Cop pulls over someone with 10 people in the back seat, someone with no drivers license, or someone who doesn’t habla, ICE can come and deport them. The moral of the story, if you are worried about being profiled, don’t give probable cause.

The law is plenty Constitutional, it has been crafted by a guy who has passed much tougher laws than this. It is based on rulings by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals and everything has been upheld.

A National ID card sounds like another form of “papers.” OMG papers ! Fucking Nazis are coming ! The hypocrisy is so horrible with this whole issue it is astounding.

This topic has seen some of the worse media coverage with regard to accuracy that I have ever seen in my lifetime. This or the health care bill, by far, have seen little to no accurate fact checking at all, and plenty of riding the media hype train.

317

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]K2000 wrote:
Also, I should point out that Arizona can’t actually put much teeth into this… they’ve already requested federal funds to help pay for training (so much for a state’s robust independence from the federal octopus, IT’S STRANGLING US MAN).

Arizona won’t be able to pay to jail all the illegals (and it’s a misdemeanor to be here illegally, not even a felony). They won’t be able to pay the court costs to process everyone, or to deport everybody - I doubt it. And they won’t be able to pay to defend against any lawsuits that come up, from citizens who were stopped.

I don’t think this law is Constitutional - like pornography (the definition is ‘I know it when I see it’) the guidelines are too vague and too open to interpretation. The problem with this law is that there are probably hundreds of thousands of legal citizens who could fit the description based on a reasonable interpretation, who risk being harassed and forced to show their documentation. It’s very likely that not just illegals will be stopped.

I don’t see how anybody could say they are against a National ID or similar measures, but be for this law.[/quote]

The way I see it, not much of anything will change in AZ, other than more deportations. I think alot of people underestimate the power cops have when reasonable suspicion and probable cause have been established. You can be detained, searched, and asked of your immigration status. So when Mr. Cop pulls over someone with 10 people in the back seat, someone with no drivers license, or someone who doesn’t habla, ICE can come and deport them. The moral of the story, if you are worried about being profiled, don’t give probable cause.

The law is plenty Constitutional, it has been crafted by a guy who has passed much tougher laws than this. It is based on rulings by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals and everything has been upheld.

A National ID card sounds like another form of “papers.” OMG papers ! Fucking Nazis are coming ! The hypocrisy is so horrible with this whole issue it is astounding.

This topic has seen some of the worse media coverage with regard to accuracy that I have ever seen in my lifetime. This or the health care bill, by far, have seen little to no accurate fact checking at all, and plenty of riding the media hype train. [/quote]
I highly doubt you know the specifics other than reading some articles online or watching your favorite new program. And it really isn’t constitutional when has immigration been up to the states. The Supreme Court has gone over this. It is very easy to point a finger and say don’t give probable cause but that is way too subjective for the cop. Basically you admit its profiling but that’s ok?

318

Drew, you need to read shit before you speak.

Clinton passed the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996, which has a program called 287g. Section 287(g) is a program of the act that deputizes state and local law enforcement personnel to enforce immigration matters. Through this program, states can partner with ICE and deport anyone who meet the criteria as specified by this 287g program. This program has been around for 14 years, I don’t know why you open border lovers cry about “only the Feds have this power” bullshit argument.

Probable cause used by cops have many times been challenged and upheld by the Supreme Court. Probable cause could be anything from smelling pot or liquor on your breath, lack of a drivers license, to erratic behavior. You clowns really don’t know how the Justice System works.

By the way, great job with your ilk in Santa Cruz, protestors demanding rights decided to riot and destroy public property. But they came only to work right ?

http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14998618

319

Some people here need to take some time to actually read the legislation before spouting off all of their nonsense - the bill exactly mirrors the language of the federal anti-illegal imigration statutes (this means that there is nothing new in the law), is predicated on lawful contact (a well-defined statute), and relies on ICE (a federal agency) to determine the legal status of any suspected illegal alien.

All the law does is allow the state authorities to verify a suspected illegal alien’s actual status via the federal authorities AS DEMANDED IN FEDERAL LAW (ie - the federal law requires a federal response to the state’s request).

Federal law already required non-citizen residents to ALWAYS have their papers (green card, resident alien id, etc) on their person. Again - nothing new in the AZ law! It is a reasonable and measured response to an out-of-control situation created by our federal government’s refusal to enforce the illigal alien laws and to secure our border.

Mexico’s imimgration law is blatently racist - but no one bother’s to mention that little gem . . .

320

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

Twist it and turn it anyway you want, but the border jumping criminals are not worthy of my respect and regard when they demonstrate that the [u]laws of my nation are below their notice if they do not suit their wants[/u]. That is just the first law they break, their first crime and then they compound it over and over again. Every border jumper is a criminal. Every one and when I say that, I also include everyone who has over-stayed their Visas or any other similar situation.
[/quote]

Ah, nonsense, your nation has a lot of laws that are worthy of contempt, as has mine.

Since it is a fair guess that every American commits at least three felonies A DAY you will have a hard time respecting anybody, including yourself.

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594032556[/quote]

Nah, not a good counterpoint. My first act in my nation wasn’t to deliberately break a law and become a criminal to achieve my wants. And to then demand more monies from the people who they are already stealing from in terms of wages, benefits, safety and life betterment.

nah, not a good one orion.

[/quote]

You are confusing two points:

A) The welfare state, which is a problem per se and

B) them trying to find work in the US, by selling drugs or in a less entrepreneurial way.

As far as the welfare state goes, that is the logic of it. If people have the “right” to whatever, yeah well, Mexicans are people too. If the right to healthcare, schooling or whatever else is as fundamental as the right to not be raped, nurdered or silenced by the state ,Mexicans have those rights too.

You are trying to make a pig fly by implicitly arguing that Americans have those rights whereas Mexicans dont, that is not the nature of rights.

As for drug smuggling…

So?

All they do is supplying goods and services Americans wantm which is incidentally what all the other Mexicans that come to the US do too.

I see no harm in consenting adults making all the deals they want and if one party is not consenting it does not make a lick of difference whether the offending party was white, brown or orange and how it got there in the first place.
[/quote]

The citizens of a nation do have more rights than non-citizens because those rights are derive in part from the citizenship. You don’t have to like it but but you do have to lump it.

321

[quote]JoeGood wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:

Twist it and turn it anyway you want, but the border jumping criminals are not worthy of my respect and regard when they demonstrate that the [u]laws of my nation are below their notice if they do not suit their wants[/u]. That is just the first law they break, their first crime and then they compound it over and over again. Every border jumper is a criminal. Every one and when I say that, I also include everyone who has over-stayed their Visas or any other similar situation.
[/quote]

Ah, nonsense, your nation has a lot of laws that are worthy of contempt, as has mine.

Since it is a fair guess that every American commits at least three felonies A DAY you will have a hard time respecting anybody, including yourself.

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594032556[/quote]

Nah, not a good counterpoint. My first act in my nation wasn’t to deliberately break a law and become a criminal to achieve my wants. And to then demand more monies from the people who they are already stealing from in terms of wages, benefits, safety and life betterment.

nah, not a good one orion.

[/quote]

You are confusing two points:

A) The welfare state, which is a problem per se and

B) them trying to find work in the US, by selling drugs or in a less entrepreneurial way.

As far as the welfare state goes, that is the logic of it. If people have the “right” to whatever, yeah well, Mexicans are people too. If the right to healthcare, schooling or whatever else is as fundamental as the right to not be raped, nurdered or silenced by the state ,Mexicans have those rights too.

You are trying to make a pig fly by implicitly arguing that Americans have those rights whereas Mexicans dont, that is not the nature of rights.

As for drug smuggling…

So?

All they do is supplying goods and services Americans wantm which is incidentally what all the other Mexicans that come to the US do too.

I see no harm in consenting adults making all the deals they want and if one party is not consenting it does not make a lick of difference whether the offending party was white, brown or orange and how it got there in the first place.
[/quote]

The citizens of a nation do have more rights than non-citizens because those rights are derive in part from the citizenship. You don’t have to like it but but you do have to lump it. [/quote]

I absolutely agree, but liberalism draws its energy from the notion of equality.

You country club mentality does not go over well with someone who thinks that “what about the children” is a valid argument.

322

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Some people here need to take some time to actually read the legislation before spouting off all of their nonsense - the bill exactly mirrors the language of the federal anti-illegal imigration statutes (this means that there is nothing new in the law), is predicated on lawful contact (a well-defined statute), and relies on ICE (a federal agency) to determine the legal status of any suspected illegal alien.

All the law does is allow the state authorities to verify a suspected illegal alien’s actual status via the federal authorities AS DEMANDED IN FEDERAL LAW (ie - the federal law requires a federal response to the state’s request).

Federal law already required non-citizen residents to ALWAYS have their papers (green card, resident alien id, etc) on their person. Again - nothing new in the AZ law! It is a reasonable and measured response to an out-of-control situation created by our federal government’s refusal to enforce the illigal alien laws and to secure our border.

Mexico’s imimgration law is blatently racist - but no one bother’s to mention that little gem . . . [/quote]
Dude, don’t you come bringing your facts in here. It will distract us from all the people screaming “Nazis!” and “Papers!” and waving their e-peni. Besides, the racial fearmongers will just flee from your facts like Superman from Kryptonite.

323

[quote]HG Thrower wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Some people here need to take some time to actually read the legislation before spouting off all of their nonsense - the bill exactly mirrors the language of the federal anti-illegal imigration statutes (this means that there is nothing new in the law), is predicated on lawful contact (a well-defined statute), and relies on ICE (a federal agency) to determine the legal status of any suspected illegal alien.

All the law does is allow the state authorities to verify a suspected illegal alien’s actual status via the federal authorities AS DEMANDED IN FEDERAL LAW (ie - the federal law requires a federal response to the state’s request).

Federal law already required non-citizen residents to ALWAYS have their papers (green card, resident alien id, etc) on their person. Again - nothing new in the AZ law! It is a reasonable and measured response to an out-of-control situation created by our federal government’s refusal to enforce the illigal alien laws and to secure our border.

Mexico’s imimgration law is blatently racist - but no one bother’s to mention that little gem . . . [/quote]
Dude, don’t you come bringing your facts in here. It will distract us from all the people screaming “Nazis!” and “Papers!” and waving their e-peni. Besides, the racial fearmongers will just flee from your facts like Superman from Kryptonite.[/quote]

The joke is really on you if you believe that politics is about “facts”.

324

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Some people here need to take some time to actually read the legislation before spouting off all of their nonsense - the bill exactly mirrors the language of the federal anti-illegal imigration statutes (this means that there is nothing new in the law), is predicated on lawful contact (a well-defined statute), and relies on ICE (a federal agency) to determine the legal status of any suspected illegal alien.

All the law does is allow the state authorities to verify a suspected illegal alien’s actual status via the federal authorities AS DEMANDED IN FEDERAL LAW (ie - the federal law requires a federal response to the state’s request).

Federal law already required non-citizen residents to ALWAYS have their papers (green card, resident alien id, etc) on their person. Again - nothing new in the AZ law! It is a reasonable and measured response to an out-of-control situation created by our federal government’s refusal to enforce the illigal alien laws and to secure our border.

Mexico’s imimgration law is blatently racist - but no one bother’s to mention that little gem . . . [/quote]

Or as an American try driving to Mexico City , I bet you will be stopped 10 times a day

325

If Osama Bin Laden shaved his beard and cut his hair and walked across the border would you think he was Mexican? Sorry I am married to a “anchor baby” that has a masters degree and her mom who swam across had her masters degree also. This is about many things but for me it is about border safety. I live in Texas and my wife and I both hope we adopt this law soon.

326

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Some people here need to take some time to actually read the legislation before spouting off all of their nonsense - the bill exactly mirrors the language of the federal anti-illegal imigration statutes (this means that there is nothing new in the law), is predicated on lawful contact (a well-defined statute), and relies on ICE (a federal agency) to determine the legal status of any suspected illegal alien.

All the law does is allow the state authorities to verify a suspected illegal alien’s actual status via the federal authorities AS DEMANDED IN FEDERAL LAW (ie - the federal law requires a federal response to the state’s request).

Federal law already required non-citizen residents to ALWAYS have their papers (green card, resident alien id, etc) on their person. Again - nothing new in the AZ law! It is a reasonable and measured response to an out-of-control situation created by our federal government’s refusal to enforce the illigal alien laws and to secure our border.

Mexico’s imimgration law is blatently racist - but no one bother’s to mention that little gem . . . [/quote]

Or as an American try driving to Mexico City , I bet you will be stopped 10 times a day [/quote]

Back in 1995, my buddies and I went to Rosarito Beach to party at Papas and Beer. After driving across the border into Mexico, I took the toll road, and got pulled over by some fat pig Federale. My buddies spoke perfect Spanish, and told me to just bribe the cop, so I gave him $40. A couple days later, on the way back to the US, the same fucking bastard cop pulled me over, and again asked me for bribe money. Nothing I could do. As I paid him, he told me to come down more often, smiling his ass off.

There is no degree of honest lawful infrastructure or civility down there, it’s a city of pure Thunderdome IMO.

327

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]IrishSteel wrote:
Some people here need to take some time to actually read the legislation before spouting off all of their nonsense - the bill exactly mirrors the language of the federal anti-illegal imigration statutes (this means that there is nothing new in the law), is predicated on lawful contact (a well-defined statute), and relies on ICE (a federal agency) to determine the legal status of any suspected illegal alien.

All the law does is allow the state authorities to verify a suspected illegal alien’s actual status via the federal authorities AS DEMANDED IN FEDERAL LAW (ie - the federal law requires a federal response to the state’s request).

Federal law already required non-citizen residents to ALWAYS have their papers (green card, resident alien id, etc) on their person. Again - nothing new in the AZ law! It is a reasonable and measured response to an out-of-control situation created by our federal government’s refusal to enforce the illigal alien laws and to secure our border.

Mexico’s imimgration law is blatently racist - but no one bother’s to mention that little gem . . . [/quote]

Or as an American try driving to Mexico City , I bet you will be stopped 10 times a day [/quote]

Back in 1995, my buddies and I went to Rosarito Beach to party at Papas and Beer. After driving across the border into Mexico, I took the toll road, and got pulled over by some fat pig Federale. My buddies spoke perfect Spanish, and told me to just bribe the cop, so I gave him $40. A couple days later, on the way back to the US, the same fucking bastard cop pulled me over, and again asked me for bribe money. Nothing I could do. As I paid him, he told me to come down more often, smiling his ass off.

There is no degree of honest lawful infrastructure or civility down there, it’s a city of pure Thunderdome IMO. [/quote]

You have such a narrow definmition of civilized behavior.

See, there you can bribe your way out of such a situation.

In the US they can take your money or your car if they just suspectg you have done something illegal and the burden of proof is on you to get it back.

I like the Mexican way better.

Or maybe being robbed is a-ok for you as long it is done in a “legal” manner.

Well then it is worse in Mexico I guess.