Athleticism Being Combined with Skills

Training
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[quote]Malchir wrote:
ahh MMA-fans, or more likely UFC-fans.

“Machida/Rampage/Shogun/Bones is the ultimate fighter, he’s gonna stay on top for a looooooong time”

Bones is not the “new breed”. He’ll be beaten. The LHW-division is stacked with at least 6 possible champs. The LHW-belt reminds me of my ex, at first it looks like she’ll be loyal to 1 man for a long time but she turns out to be a whore that gets passed around a lot.[/quote]

You have my sympathy sir. I hope that one day you’ll find your MW belt.

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[quote]grayman19 wrote:
Jones is nothing special. He’s a talented fighter and good athlete, but he is not magical. Anybody who is competing at the highest possible level in any sport, be it olympic weight lifting, UFC world championships, or bodybuilders are special.

They aren’t, however, simply genetically gifted. Writing off success at that level as a “gift from god” short-changes all of the work they put in to make it to the top of the world. Guys like GSP are the champions because they train harder than anybody in this forum every day of their lives. Alexander Karelin had this to say when people accused him of cheating or just being born better: “[They don’t understand because] I train every day of my life as they have never trained a day in theirs”.

As has already been brought up, there are too many hungry guys in LHW each as talented as Jones looking to take him out. [/quote]

I’m not gonna disagree that champions don’t put in a ton of hard work to get to the (and stay on) top. But come on, there are some fighters who train equally as hard as the champs but will never be one because they simply don’t have the “god given talent” that the champs do. Karelin trained like a mad man, but to suggest that he wasn’t also a genetic freak is just dishonest. Same thing could be said of Tyson.

I agree with whoever said that as the sport grows in popularity, you will get more athletically gifted individuals training in it from childhood. Jones is most certainly gifted (extremely long reach, explosiveness, and the ability to quickly learn physical skills), is obviously training very hard to be as well rounded as possible, and has a rare mental strength for someone his age. Whether or not he marks the “next wave” of talent entering MMA, or is just an isolated case is yet to be seen. I think Phil Davis is another LHW with tons of athletic gifts and talent, but I don’t think he’s as mentally strong as Jones.

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[quote]grayman19 wrote:
They aren’t, however, simply genetically gifted. Writing off success at that level as a “gift from god” short-changes all of the work they put in to make it to the top of the world. [/quote]

Nobody’s made this argument. Why are you bringing it up?

There are tons of ways to measure talent. Focus is a talent. Not being injury prone is a talent. Learning from your mistakes is a talent. Tolerance for training is a talent. Great chin is a talent. Pain tolerance is a talent. Resilience is a talent. Here, it’s just being acknowledged that Jones has exceptional physical talent (what Sento said), which isn’t as common in MMA as in bigger sports, because the talent pool is smaller. That is all.

Also, it just occurred to me, who are the 6 potential LHW champs on the current roster?

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The reading comprehension of some forum members boggles the mind. My original thoughts on the subject were based around the concept that nobody would show up with ridiculously good physical attributes AND the ability to incorporate well-rounded skillsets. Jones has proven me wrong by showing up and progressing so quickly. In my mind, the only thing that can really prevent him from becoming one of the best ever is himself - if he some how loses the fire, gets hurt, or something along those lines.

Really, I mean is it hard to understand that it is simply amazing how quickly he’s progressed in three years in the sport even with his wrestling background?

Youngest Light Heavy Weight Champion ever. Hasn’t been challenged in a fight yet. I understand hype, but we really can only base our opinions on what a fighters done so far, and Jones has been nothing short of amazing.

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[quote]grayman19 wrote:

They aren’t, however, simply genetically gifted. Writing off success at that level as a “gift from god” short-changes all of the work they put in to make it to the top of the world. [/quote]

wat

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[quote]Malchir wrote:
ahh MMA-fans, or more likely UFC-fans.

“Machida/Rampage/Shogun/Bones is the ultimate fighter, he’s gonna stay on top for a looooooong time”

Bones is not the “new breed”. He’ll be beaten. The LHW-division is stacked with at least 6 possible champs. The LHW-belt reminds me of my ex, at first it looks like she’ll be loyal to 1 man for a long time but she turns out to be a whore that gets passed around a lot.[/quote]

damn, I guess I didn’t say “I know a lot could happen in the interim” or anything, I just said “yeah boi, Jones rulz dis shiznit 4eva”

fak yeah

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Wow, I feel stupid

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yeah boi, you might be slow on the uptake.

I think Jones is actively waging a good campaign to bring the sport up
to a new level and gets away with crazy shit

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[quote]slimjim wrote:
A few years ago there was a thread on here (I think it was before the combat forum actually existed) saying that MMA didn’t have world class athletes - or more accurately some argued that the level of athletes was lower than more popular sports such as basketball or football. At the time I disagreed. My opinion was purely based on the fact that I believed that skill and technique trumped athleticism in a sport with so many areas in which to win or lose, and I really didn’t think that there would be guys showing up with explosiveness, endurance, AND the ability to strike and grapple.

I gotta say that Jon Jones is proving me entirely wrong. I realize it’s still early in his career and lots could happen in the interim, but based on the way he’s improved so quickly in the sport, combined with the god given physical abilities he possesses, his example hints at the potential MMA athlete we are seeing and may see more of in the future. It is absolutely scary to think of what he could become with more work in the gym and what the future holds for MMA in general.
[/quote]

overall athleticism is the minimum base on which effective skills are built.All elite athletes share overall athletic ability.Just look at soccer players doing back flips or tennis players juggling tennis balls with their feet.
Its just natural evolution that athletes are getting faster,stronger,more conditioned in every sport each year.

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I think there is a bit of a catch 22, because a genetic freak is less likely to develop world class technique since he can rely on athleticism from day 1. In 5-10 years, I don’t think MMA is going to be dominated by “world class athletes”, it’s going to be dominated by world class technique. The difference in technique across all disciplines in 10 years will be as different as the difference in technique from UFC 1 to now. The MMA you see today is a sloppy shit show compared to what is to come.

As to Jones- he is a very good athlete, but he is by no means some sort of freak. He has picked up a solid skill set fairly early and he other guys haven’t figured out how to deal with his reach yet. Anderson Silva is anything but a world class athlete and not nearly as athletic as Jones, but if you question whether he would beat the life out of Jones I think we are watching different sports.

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[quote]chitown34 wrote:
I think there is a bit of a catch 22, because a genetic freak is less likely to develop world class technique since he can rely on athleticism from day 1. In 5-10 years, I don’t think MMA is going to be dominated by “world class athletes”, it’s going to be dominated by world class technique. The difference in technique across all disciplines in 10 years will be as different as the difference in technique from UFC 1 to now. The MMA you see today is a sloppy shit show compared to what is to come.

As to Jones- he is a very good athlete, but he is by no means some sort of freak. He has picked up a solid skill set fairly early and he other guys haven’t figured out how to deal with his reach yet. Anderson Silva is anything but a world class athlete and not nearly as athletic as Jones, but if you question whether he would beat the life out of Jones I think we are watching different sports.[/quote]

I think Anderson could catch bones early and tool him on the feet, but I do see Bones having a great chance at winning if he grapples Anderson.
I think the most interesting question is who beats him? I think King Mo could based on his style, Rashad, maybe Hendo could catch him early. I’m also interested to see where Phil Davis and Gustafsson are in a year or two. Gus put a beating on Hamill and if he improves hes wrestling he could pose a threat. Same thing with Mousasi, with better wrestling he’d have a great chance at being champ.

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As i said in another thread the only way Rashad wins is if he knows a weakness from training with him in the past, and it would have to be a definite weakness. Not something Bones has fixed since then.

He has great genetics, probably not elite athlete genetics but far superior to his competitors at this point. I doubt MMA will ever have the Athletes Basketball, Football, and Baseball have. Even if the Champ makes a ton of money that’s 1 out of how many people? For a sport that promotes serious injury to make it through it’s just not worth it. I don’t even think Boxers get the top tier athletes. There are several football players who stuck with football who used to wrestle or box and stuck with football not because they were losing but because that’s where the glamour is at.

Chitown are you seriously implying that it’s obvious Silva would beat the life out of Jones?

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actually many of the genetic freaks dont make it to the big show…

the true freaks- meaning super strong kid- who is too short to play D1 football
ends up at a D3 school playing there.
where they tear this up , but largely go unnoticed
until later they become a power lifter and get more recognition there

and many of the freaks end up in sports that are just not as popular ( in the US)

like bobsled
alpine or down hill skiing
or speed skating

some of the more obscure track and field types
are not only beasts but are true genetic marvels

want to see some freak ass training- and results
look at a javelin thrower
want something with more weight room goodness
shot put or hammer type dude.

just things I have noticed

one of the biggest ‘freaks’ was this goofy ass kid in college lived down the hall
and did alpine and down hill and any of those fucking ski things

kid was dumb as rocks
could party all night do a stupid amount of
real weight room work- read big front squats - huge deads - huge cleans
could tumble
throw, catch, jump, swim as good or better then most
‘real’ jocks from lacrosse to football

but skied

shit even Rhadi Ferguson - who played Judo as a kid-
wrestled a little bit and played football in college
but went to college that isn’t even an NCAA school at all
which means he probably would never have started anywhere else

used what he was born with and played Judo on a world stage.
( not that he did that well there)
but dude is a freak

As for Jones- everyone looks unstoppable till they loose or get stopped.
Not being a jerk but we just haven’t seen anyone who has figured out his unique puzzle.

I had a wrestling partner- who was something like 5’9 and competed with me in HS
but I was 5’2 and played at 119 and 125 needless to say for young kids huge huge difference in size
its hard to throw someone like that

that kid wound up kicking serious ass in college because of his length/height ect
best way to beat him was to bully him and those guys figured it out

‘styles make fights’

well Jones has many things going his way

stupid reach
bigger guy strength
mad confidence
and willingness to try crazy ass shit

makes me thing he tries crazy ass shit in practice all day
he needs his confidence shaken
or his will broken with well placed violence

Lots of the ‘top’ 205 types are kind of at the end of their career
rampage
forrest
perhaps shogun

so its kind of hard to predict what can happen while his sun is rising
others are clearly setting

just some rambling shit

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“Lots of the ‘top’ 205 types are kind of at the end of their career
rampage
forrest
perhaps shogun”

Very good observation. Add Hendo in there.

Shad should be hitting his prime right now.

King Mo? Mousasi? Davis? Bader?

If Shad gets by Davis, I just don’t think there’s anyone else out there in that division. Jones is pretty close to clearing it out, lol.

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alexander gustafsson has a very good chance of being the next big time at 205.

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Just thought id point out years later that no one has actually beaten Jones in the ring, his greatest opponent has always been himself

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Very true. It seems, in the end the only person capable of derailing Jon Jones, was Jon Jones. Sad really because he could have become the greatest ever, on a level with athletes like Jordan, Ruth, Brady (haters gonna hate :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:), Phelps, etc… Instead, he seems to be going down the road of train wrecks like Tyson.

2 Likes
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man that was fun to read the posts from 2011…

rashad will fuck up jon jones…
jones will loose after 1 title defense…

guess some were clearly wrong here, although the jon jones story is as sad as it can get.

hopefully they do not strap the belt and ask DC to fight him again in 6 month, right after this devastating knock out. the punches after the kick on the ground were no fun…

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Ditto
Especially that sardine guy. So salty.

It’s frustrating for me to see people brush off unique gifts or talents as… They were born with it. Maybe it’s maybelline. Who knows.
On a serious note, there are a brave few who fall into their life calling and run with it. They’re our tech moguls, Michelin star chefs, journalists, and even MMA fighters.
To simply say that they are ‘supposed’ to succeed is distasteful and ungrateful of the tumultuous, mundane lives these athletes have to live in order to achieve greatness.
Fuck you if you think Anderson Silva only slept his foes because he is genetically superior. Now Hector Lombard… Is a specimen. But we all know how that went.
GSP is awkward as fuck. He hasn’t the faintest idea how to move fluidly. He’s choppy and stiff in many ways… But the man thinks. He knew this so he dedicated himself to gymnastics to limber up, increase his mobility and fluidity.
I’ve seen a recent video of him hitting pads… And he’s still stiff as a board, but he makes it work!
What I’m saying is that it’s idiotic to think that a genetic disposition is a conclusive segue to MMA success. Not only through logic, but also because it’s proven time and time and again that the barrel chested, shredded ab having guy with a neck like Brock doesn’t make you a champion…
A million dollar mouth piece with a piercing left hand does.