hey im only 17… soon to be 18… but I know a few atheist girls in my school… and only one is hot… there are probably more out there… she doesnt talk about it… youd just have to talk to a girl for a while to find out… they are out there somewhere… i will find one!
- Mike – you are incorrect if you truly beleive that “wrong” is defined as something god would punish. I have a very strict moral code and refuse to do many things that many Christians do. It is entirely possible to have a moral and ethical basis for your life with no god. I do it.
- You know what’s funny? Christians picking on Scientologists
- As to this site (the original question) it is a breath of fresh air. The only people that won’t be comfortable here are those that are made uncomfortable by views different than their own.
- For those that believe in God, and would like to know what it is like to be an atheist in a christian country: Pretend that you are in a place where everyone you meet professes to beleive in Santa. So much so that your belief is assumed, and astonishment is expressed when you say you don’t. Every aspect of this society, from music, books, and movies is saturated with Santa belief. There are even wars between those that prefer Kris Kringle old world Santa to the new red suit Santa. To add to your bemusment, you notice that although they say that they think elves will toreture tham forever in another life if they misbehave, most act as if this life is the only one. In short after 30 years as an atheist, I view the religious with detached amusement. In this country, they are mainly harmless. Of course we all know what happens when they get total control. thank God for the constitution : )
Much as it pains me, I have to speak up for MtL here. Long-time Forum readers will remember that MtL and I have had our disputes. And I’m neither Christian nor atheist. (That’s right folks, there’s yet another category - agnostic - for those of us who don’t think that there’s enough information available to make an informed decision.) So I’m not taking sides on that basis. But really, as an impartial bystander I think Mike is being maligned here. Why? Well, his original post was (for him) pretty laid back. Yeah, he said pansy-assed. Boo hoo. And I think Michelle’s line of reasoning is disingenuous as best. Granted, her post was a joke, but Mike’s point about going to hell is valid. No, it wasn’t said outright, but it was definitely implied. So let’s not split rhetorical hairs. Furthermore, who’s to say that Mike himself wasn’t engaging in a little humor? And did he say that Michelle was shoving her beliefs down his throat? Nope, his comment was a general (and remarkably tempered) response to DA MAN’s post. Nothing to do with Michelle at all.
Look, I find a lot of MTL’s comments and overall attitude bothersome. But I think that a lot of the Forum’s “problem children” are created by the Forum - or more specifically, a number of people who just can’t resist making fun of someone when they respond. Even Jason Baran, the all-time Forum looney…do a search on his earliest posts and read a few. They sound remarkably sane - even funny at times. But later, after he’d been attacked unmercifully, he went off the deep end. Okay, I’m not defending Jason. But given all the highjacked posts and hassle that he engendered, I think that it would have been in everyone’s best interests to simply have ignored him, or at least responded without baiting him. (But that wouldn’t have been as much fun, now would it?) C’mon people, let’s exercise some restraint here, huh? And Mike, for what it’s worth, I’m with you on this one.
Has anyone considered the idea that the world would be a better place if everyone kept their religion to themselves or just within their own organizations? If someone really wants religion they will go find it.
MTL is right that the abstract ideas of “right” and “wrong” must be based on some sort of arbitration, be it God or a personal ethic. The problem comes not in self-reference (I can claim I am right or wrong in my actions at any time, and base my answer on my own moral code) but when one passes judgement on another. In that case, we must appeal to an authority (for in matters of morality, one person’s word is as good as another’s), and abide by the given decision. Usually, when people speak of right and wrong, they are speaking from one of two frames of reference: that a behavior is not acceptable to the current society, or that God would personally view the action as offensive and worthy of punishment. Ultimately, the sense that there is some universal morality swirling around out there is limited by the ability of the universe to punish breaches of that code. Without God, therefore, we have only social constraints and laws to measure our actions, and those may change depending on our company or circumstances.
With all the bad stuf that happens in the world, I sort of wonder whether God is good. There was a book (can’t remember what it’s called), that said God was evil & the Devil was benign. I think I like that idea. Paul Erdos (an extremely famous mathematician) said God (the Supreme Fascist or SF) kept a transfinite (bigger than infinite) book that had all the perfect proofs of every theorem in it. He said you didn’t have to beleive in God, but you should beleive in the Book.
I agree Al. But let’s not stop there. Everyone should keep there political views, ethnic heritage, cultural views, social and class status to themselves. That way none will be offended. Hell, let’s pass a dress code too so no one will be offended or made fun of. Sounds boring and rather petty though.
Sorry, you are mistaken. There is no need to refer to anything other than logic and and an accurate view of humanity to deduce a proper moral code. I will simplify here to keep the thread short. 1) As a rational person, most likely your goal is to live your life as you wish, using your own skills and talents to acheive whatever goals you set for yourself, and to enjoy yourself in the process. 2) Borrowing the “like minds” scenario from philosophy, we can deduce that other people wish the same. 3) What actions can be judged as immoral in such a scenario? those that interfere with the achievement of others’ goals. These are two: force and fraud. As we will see below, working to defeat your own goals is also immoral. 4) One can ask, “What if my goals ARE to force others to do what I want, or to defraud tham of money and property?” In this case, you are out of luck. The fact that we all want to be FREE to achieve our goals means that we have constructed a society of laws, to protect us from a-holes that use the two f’s. Your goals in this case are self-defeating – read immoral. 5)You can also work to defeat your own goals (insert cheeseburger and twinkie here), and, in the harshest possible view, this would also be immoral. You have to remember, though, that part of the goal for a rational person is to enjoy life, so a little slack can be a good thing. 6) There will always be people and places where the above does not hold sway. In my view, they are at a minimum not rational, and in some cases evil. Even in our society, there are such people, and they are not always punished. 7) This is, of course, the philosophical basis for the golden rule, modified somewhat for clarity. Notice that we can always determine whether something is immoral by asking ourselves a couple of simple questions, and we do not need to refer to an external power or source of knowledge. 8) THE RESULTS: We can do what we like in bed, with whoever we like. All those we deal with in business or personally, will come to trust us completely, as we will become known as a total “straight shooter” (you would not believe what this does for me in the business world. It is worth a lot of money to have such a reputation.) Even when you screw up, you will be forgiven, as those in your life know that you genuinely wish them well (because you do not use force or fraud to get what you want). There is no such thing as guilt, because there is no reason for it. 9) some people hate this idea. If it were the law of the land, drugs would be legal, as well as prostitution. There would be no reason for religion to exist. Fortunately, for the time being at least, I live in a country where I can live this way, have for years, and it has been a very good life thus far. 10)Just a side note: Has anyone else noticed that on this forum we have a group of people deeply involved in bodybuilding, a pastime associated with muscle-bound dummies, and yet, the level of discourse and the complexity and depth of the arguments presented are more in line with a college debating class, than with anything you might expect to find in a gym. Maybe we see a connection here. Maybe the kind of person that is interested in bettering himself physically is just plain interested in bettering himself, period?
I didn’t really read much of this thread just scanned it for one reason. The whole thing can be summed up with this: “Give me proof one way or the other or fuck off!” Thanks and have a nice day. 
Athiests have definite absolutes. they have at least 2 in their open mindedness. 1. There is no God. 2. There are no absolutes. Reply to that!!!
Whoever said that atheists think that there are no absolutes? There are plenty. As to God, I do not think there is one, because I see no evidence. I could say that I am agnostic, but that is a cop-out. You might as well say that you are agnostic about the easter bunny. No evidence for or against, right? The fact of the matter is, the burden of proof is on the person making the assertion. I don’t say there is no god because I know in some magical way that there is not, and could never be, but because there is no evidence. Should I come across evidence, obviously I would change my conclusions. Those that assert god’s existence have the burden of proof, as do all that take the assertive position in a debate.
To Razor:
Uhhhhh… You’re welcome?
See my posts under Quest under the Christianity topics for what really matter.
Huck, that derivation of ‘ought’ from ‘is’ was bullshit when Ayn Rand tried it decades ago, and it’s bullshit now. See www.daviddfriedman.com/Libertarian/ My_Posts/Ought_From_Is.html for a detailed explanation.
The fact is that morality cannot be coherently defined apart from the existence of an agent capable of rewarding and punishing. In fact, external obligations in general cannot be defined coherently apart from such an agent.
Huck, you are presenting a philosophical view of social/constitutional law, not morality. What you are referring to are the kinds of actions that a government should punish, and protect its people from. Law is not morality. While you present this theory in the form of your own personal ‘moral code,’ it doesn’t reconcile beliefs that many others have that do not follow your logical chain. For example, if you believe that it is immoral to have premarital sex, that isn’t something that is necessarily going to hurt or defraud another human being (that is, we can construct scenarios to fit these conditions). And yet, the believer may feel that it there is a divine expectation of him or her. To further clarify the point, we can look at a hypothetical mass murderer. If a man decides tomorrow to kill several thousand people, according to your philosophy, it would be “wrong.” However, we can arguably conceive of a circumstance in which the society itself sanctions the murders; in this case, the murders are not considered “wrong” as wrong is usually defined. That is, the murders cause no ethical issues for those involved (well, other than, perhaps, the people killed). But as an outside observer, many would still want to call this wrong (let’s say we’re from another planet, to make the argument easier). Our concept of right and wrong is based upon what we feel are universal, and universally enforced, rules of behavior. Anyway, my point is very simple: there is no right nor wrong, but only effective or ineffective for a given purpose.
I don’t believe in religion. but i believe in “God”. God being the entity that has created all. There has to be one entity before there can be two, and so on. therefore, God is more powerfull, more spectacular, and unconprehendable than what our little pea sized brains can even rationalize. Therefore, God is real. The creator of all living things, time, space, deminsions…etc…etc…etc… But i believe Jesus was a great man, preached what he believed in. he did exist. but not the son of God. I don’t believe in the bible. if some of it is untrue, then you have to consider the rest of the book a lie. If those miracles can’t be done now, they certainly didn’t happen thousands of years ago. I just live my life the best of my ability, respect my fellow man, and do what i think is right, and what is socially accepted by other good people.
people need hope. no hope, no life. hope brings a positive attitude, good things and happiness. a vast majority of people put their hope in religion, that’s what gets them by, and it works for them. but it doesn’t prove religion exists.
As an atheist I find this website completely appalling. All this steroid drug abusing non-sense. All these people self consumed with there appearance. Just terrible. All this sex, oh my gosh, It is a horrible thing. I say we clean up this nasty mess, we should talk about children and the beauty of life and helping others…All right, I ain’t really an atheist, but you can be if you want to, it ain’t my problem and I ain’t yours. Peace and …nothing bless!
I like this site…
Ok athiest your belief is that there is no God. I beleive that there is. If im right i go to heaven , live in a mansion, with golden streets etc. You on the other hand go to the pits of hell where you will be exposed to excrutiating pain. Not just physical but emotional, like the kind you get when somone dies,or leaves u ,depression all those ones that seem to surpass the physical. If you are right on the other hand,( about their being no god) im not saying I Know what you beleive or anything but most athiest just beleive you die and thats it nothing else. Well if your right then that means that when me and you both die then we will just be here barried in the ground , no consequences of the life you lived before. Well I got one Question For you WHAT IF YOUR WRONG?? Im not a gamblin man or anything but the way i see it I have nothing loose. GOD BLESS! JC baby!
I know that things in the bible are hard tota beleive i my self as a christain have to stop and think about it somtimes. That is completely normal though, We just have to keep our faith in the lord. There are lots of things that happen that cause us to question god, but instead of turning from him turn to him. Dont get caught up in ascking how why when where, just have faith. If you look at the world and the problems in it today, its no wonder things happen as they do. Its over ran by gays, adultry, murder, rape, suicide, depression, hate. The devil has taken over. None of these are good things. I also have an example that i thing is wrong. I dont think its right that if a straight person were walking down the rode and a gay person and him or her get in a fight, its considered a hate crime. They are prtecting them as if they were cops or somthing. and I dont want to here its only a hate crime if the straight person was threatening the gay, it doesnt matter who started what , they are going to lable it a hate crime!! I mean if you fight a fat person or a skinny one its not a hat crime, or if you fight a red head and your a blonde, or poor picks on rich hmmm. Kida wrong. Are we realy considered equal.?/? Seems like they are almost making it a privelage if your gay. The way i see it you choose your own path and the consequences that come with it are your own fault. God Bless, I am no hater of gays, what they do is their on buisness, just trying to keep it real!!