Atheism-o-phobia Part 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
321

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Then i don’t understand what you’re getting at.
[/quote]

I’m attempting to demonstrate to you that you do actually believe that certain acts are unequivocally moral or immoral.

You can come up with all the explanations and justifications and postulations you want to, but in the end, everyone except for maybe true sociopaths ends up having to admit that there are certain “truths,” he holds to be “self-evident.”

[/quote]

Cortes, there are things i would only do in extreme situations, and there are things i would never do no matter the circumstance. What i would never do [cheat on my wife, for instance] some people don’t think twice about.

Joining an army, go abroad and invade a country is another thing i would never do.

And yet, these immoral acts aren’t perceived that way by many, many people. Would i ever kill a baby? No, i would not. Do i think that people who do kill babies are immoral? Yes, because the act of killing a baby is something i would never do.

Still, babies are killed everyday by people who think they’re doing the right thing. Why is that Cortes? Is it because what one finds moral changes with circumstance? I think so.

What i think are immoral acts are acts i’d never do myself.[/quote]

Totally beside the point.

What another person feels means nothing. What’s important is that you believe there IS a moral standard, as you hold yourself to it, would never violate it in certain respects, and you use this standard when comparing the acts of others (indeed, you are using it in this very post).

My entire point, from months ago on the Arrest the Pope thread, even, has been this. Press hard enough, and, unless they are a total, out and out sociopath, everyone ends up admitting that there are certain acts that they feel are just fucking wrong no matter what.

And at this point, my friend, I can point to Sloth’s recent posts to forlife about such a moral code either being a lie (which I certainly don’t think is the case with you), an actual Law which exists independent of the physical universe, or just the same as the faith/ignorance/protectionary mechanism-based fantasy delusions we Christians comfort ourselves with.

Something tells me you are not really cool with options 2 or 3, either. [/quote]

Why do morals have to be independent of the physical universe?

322

[quote]forlife wrote:

I prefer to base my beliefs on what I know to be true, rather than on what I want or fear to be true. [/quote]

I’m pretty sure you just got through three or four pages pretty strongly contesting that your morals were based upon your feelings. I’m not saying you used those words, but, I mean, let’s not delude ourselves into believing that you came up with your morals independently and empirically.

If you disagree, then please tell me what you know to be true about dishonesty. Or cruelty. Or selfishness.

323

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Then i don’t understand what you’re getting at.
[/quote]

I’m attempting to demonstrate to you that you do actually believe that certain acts are unequivocally moral or immoral.

You can come up with all the explanations and justifications and postulations you want to, but in the end, everyone except for maybe true sociopaths ends up having to admit that there are certain “truths,” he holds to be “self-evident.”

[/quote]

Cortes, there are things i would only do in extreme situations, and there are things i would never do no matter the circumstance. What i would never do [cheat on my wife, for instance] some people don’t think twice about.

Joining an army, go abroad and invade a country is another thing i would never do.

And yet, these immoral acts aren’t perceived that way by many, many people. Would i ever kill a baby? No, i would not. Do i think that people who do kill babies are immoral? Yes, because the act of killing a baby is something i would never do.

Still, babies are killed everyday by people who think they’re doing the right thing. Why is that Cortes? Is it because what one finds moral changes with circumstance? I think so.

What i think are immoral acts are acts i’d never do myself.[/quote]

Totally beside the point.

What another person feels means nothing. What’s important is that you believe there IS a moral standard, as you hold yourself to it, would never violate it in certain respects, and you use this standard when comparing the acts of others (indeed, you are using it in this very post).

My entire point, from months ago on the Arrest the Pope thread, even, has been this. Press hard enough, and, unless they are a total, out and out sociopath, everyone ends up admitting that there are certain acts that they feel are just fucking wrong no matter what.

And at this point, my friend, I can point to Sloth’s recent posts to forlife about such a moral code either being a lie (which I certainly don’t think is the case with you), an actual Law which exists independent of the physical universe, or just the same as the faith/ignorance/protectionary mechanism-based fantasy delusions we Christians comfort ourselves with.

Something tells me you are not really cool with options 2 or 3, either. [/quote]

Why do morals have to be independent of the physical universe?[/quote]

Because they are “oughts.”

The physical universe is made of of “is’s.”

324

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

So would if you’re wrong and as a result, you end up in Tartarus?
[/quote]

Doesn’t sound nearly as bad as Hell!

325

I don’t buy into an ought not being able to be derived from an is. If you don’t do something you ought to do, then there are consequences whether a person chooses to ignore them or not.

326

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Because they are “oughts.”

The physical universe is made of of “is’s.”

[/quote]

Man, I wish I had just left it at that.

327

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

Religion thrives on carrot-and-stick tactics. As I understand it, there’s a fair bit of fire and brimstone in catho/islam. It is extremely effective on impressionable, imaginative minds. Worked a charm on me for example.[/quote]

Are you supposed to explain complicated doctrines to a 7 year old? Tell me how do you guide your children toward God without giving them first the most basic teachings?
[/quote]

Why not wait until they are older? And more capable of understanding?[/quote]

Why not wait until they are older to tell them not to play in traffic? Why not wait until they are older to involve them in sports? Why not wait until they are older to teach them about good nutrition.

Uh huh.
[/quote]

Because unlike simple concepts like “a car hitting you will kill you”, religion requires a larger amount of comprehension, something you aren’t likely to find in a 7 year old.

328

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

My safety net is the people in my life that love me, and that I love, unconditionally. It is also a clear conscience from knowing that despite being imperfect, I genuinely try to live according to my moral values. I’m happy, growing, and at peace in my life and that’s really all anyone can ask.
[/quote]

Your safety net sucks my friend. They can love the heck out of you for the next 50 years, but when your time is up they won’t be there no one will. It will be you and God, the God you refuse to believe in because his word is in conflict with what you’ve chosen to do with your life. You’ve rejected God and whether you believe it or not you will be rejected by God someday. That’s the safety net that I am referring to. Some don’t want to hear this because their knee jerk response is “I have to believe out of fear?” And to that I say, why not we do everything else to either gain reward or avoid punishment, the rest makes perfect sense to me.

As to living by your own morals - When someone approaches you and tries to beat you with a stick (may it never happen) because that speaks to their moral values what does that leave us?

I know none of this will resonate with you right now, but we all change as we age. [/quote]

BELIEVE IN GOD OR DIE ALONE!

He’s not a seven year old you can scare into belief.

329

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I don’t buy into an ought not being able to be derived from an is. If you don’t do something you ought to do, then there are consequences whether a person chooses to ignore them or not. [/quote]

Sorry, consequences are also oughts.

330

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I don’t buy into an ought not being able to be derived from an is. If you don’t do something you ought to do, then there are consequences whether a person chooses to ignore them or not. [/quote]

Sorry, consequences are also oughts. [/quote]

?

331

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Then i don’t understand what you’re getting at.
[/quote]

I’m attempting to demonstrate to you that you do actually believe that certain acts are unequivocally moral or immoral.

You can come up with all the explanations and justifications and postulations you want to, but in the end, everyone except for maybe true sociopaths ends up having to admit that there are certain “truths,” he holds to be “self-evident.”

[/quote]

Cortes, there are things i would only do in extreme situations, and there are things i would never do no matter the circumstance. What i would never do [cheat on my wife, for instance] some people don’t think twice about.

Joining an army, go abroad and invade a country is another thing i would never do.

And yet, these immoral acts aren’t perceived that way by many, many people. Would i ever kill a baby? No, i would not. Do i think that people who do kill babies are immoral? Yes, because the act of killing a baby is something i would never do.

Still, babies are killed everyday by people who think they’re doing the right thing. Why is that Cortes? Is it because what one finds moral changes with circumstance? I think so.

What i think are immoral acts are acts i’d never do myself.[/quote]

Totally beside the point.

What another person feels means nothing. What’s important is that you believe there IS a moral standard, as you hold yourself to it, would never violate it in certain respects, and you use this standard when comparing the acts of others (indeed, you are using it in this very post).

My entire point, from months ago on the Arrest the Pope thread, even, has been this. Press hard enough, and, unless they are a total, out and out sociopath, everyone ends up admitting that there are certain acts that they feel are just fucking wrong no matter what.

And at this point, my friend, I can point to Sloth’s recent posts to forlife about such a moral code either being a lie (which I certainly don’t think is the case with you), an actual Law which exists independent of the physical universe, or just the same as the faith/ignorance/protectionary mechanism-based fantasy delusions we Christians comfort ourselves with.

Something tells me you are not really cool with options 2 or 3, either. [/quote]

I never denied having a moral standard Cortes. Whatever gave you that idea?

332

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:
As I understand it, there’s a fair bit of fire and brimstone in catho/islam.[/quote]

I would like to see some more. You rarely hear about Hell, and when you do it’s just an off comment. Sad, hopefully with the change in the Church it’ll come back more to even.

333

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Wow. Just wow. So I take it you are against women swallowing then. What a sad life you must live.[/quote]

Not married, so not sure how women can or cannot swallow affects my life’s sadness directly. I like nutting in the cooter, anyway.

334

[quote]Rza UK wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Faith is a major wedge between ethics and suffering - where certain actions cause no suffering at all, religion still maintains that the actions are evil and worthy of punishment (sodomy,homosexuality, masturbation). And yet, where suffering and death are found in abundance, their causes are deemed to be “good” (withholding funding for family planning in the third world, prosecuting non-violent drug offenders, preventing stem cell research etc).

The inversion of priorities not only squanders resources and victimizes innocent people, it falsifies our ethics. A more reasonable approach to matters of right and wrong is sorely needed.[/quote]

Sodomy and masturbation are considered evil because it doesn’t allow for the possibility of life.[/quote]

So if a guy rubs one out in his own home, alone, this is a crime worthy of your judgment? Of two consenting adults practice anal or oral sex in their own home, alone, this is a crime worthy of your attention? If a guy tokes up in his own home on the weekend, gets REAAAAL high and falls asleep, this is a crime?[/quote]

I’m not following your first question, maybe I am just reading it weird. If two consenting adults that are married are practicing anal or oral, but the man ejaculates into the vagina, no foul done.

Yes, in America in certain places if you smoke weed you’re committing a crime. [/quote]

Wow. Just wow. So I take it you are against women swallowing then. What a sad life you must live.[/quote]

Imagine how many people there would be if everyone thought like that. There would be a major population problem! I would have a few kids running around myself!
[/quote]

How would there be a population problem? And what’s wrong with kids?

335

[quote]ephrem wrote:
[/quote]

Pat Robertson = Blood sucking dirty Protestant?

336

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

My safety net is the people in my life that love me, and that I love, unconditionally. It is also a clear conscience from knowing that despite being imperfect, I genuinely try to live according to my moral values. I’m happy, growing, and at peace in my life and that’s really all anyone can ask.
[/quote]

Your safety net sucks my friend. They can love the heck out of you for the next 50 years, but when your time is up they won’t be there no one will. It will be you and God, the God you refuse to believe in because his word is in conflict with what you’ve chosen to do with your life. You’ve rejected God and whether you believe it or not you will be rejected by God someday. That’s the safety net that I am referring to. Some don’t want to hear this because their knee jerk response is “I have to believe out of fear?” And to that I say, why not we do everything else to either gain reward or avoid punishment, the rest makes perfect sense to me.

As to living by your own morals - When someone approaches you and tries to beat you with a stick (may it never happen) because that speaks to their moral values what does that leave us?

I know none of this will resonate with you right now, but we all change as we age. [/quote]

BELIEVE IN GOD OR DIE ALONE!

He’s not a seven year old you can scare into belief.[/quote]

So you didn’t even believe in god until you were scared into it…what a waste of your life… pity the fool.

337

[quote]forlife wrote:
Even if I agreed with your contention that we are all hedonists, there are inherent rewards for loving people, aside from the desire for supernatural brownie points. Bottom line is that believing in the supernatural is not a prerequisite to living a moral life.[/quote]

I never said it was for any particular person. However, I think it certainly is for large groups of people. Think about it.

I’ve said many times I cannot prove the existence of God. That’s why it says in the Bible “it is impossible to please God without faith.” Anyone trying to prove God’s existence will ultimately be frustrated.

Not in front of a Christian God my friend. Based on Christianity you will fry like so many McDonalds french fries. Eternal torment in the darkness of hell is not a good way to spend the next umpteen trillion years. If that possibility doesn’t bother you then you’re not quite as smart as you think you are. It’s good that your friends pat you on the back and tell you how brave you are to do what you did. But the “integrity” that you think you deserve credit for in the afterlife will most assuredly NOT be rewarded should you be wrong, quite the opposite.

As for your back turning faith change I think we all know why you did that. You did exactly what I said everyone does. You went after pleasure and avoided pain - in the short-term. But that is a trade off as in the long-term you may have purchased for yourself a monumental amount of trouble should your sudden realization that there is no Christian God be wrong and that what you really wanted to do was to seek more short term please at the cost of long-term (eternal) happiness.

Hey, I wish you luck my friend. I know what you’re going through cannot be easy and believe it or not I’ve prayed for you.

338

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

Religion thrives on carrot-and-stick tactics. As I understand it, there’s a fair bit of fire and brimstone in catho/islam. It is extremely effective on impressionable, imaginative minds. Worked a charm on me for example.[/quote]

Are you supposed to explain complicated doctrines to a 7 year old? Tell me how do you guide your children toward God without giving them first the most basic teachings?
[/quote]

Why not wait until they are older? And more capable of understanding?[/quote]

Why not wait until they are older to tell them not to play in traffic? Why not wait until they are older to involve them in sports? Why not wait until they are older to teach them about good nutrition.

Uh huh.
[/quote]

Because unlike simple concepts like “a car hitting you will kill you”, religion requires a larger amount of comprehension, something you aren’t likely to find in a 7 year old.[/quote]

Ever hear of a dude named King Solomon? He lived during the OT. And there is proof that he actually lived, no fairy tale. I’ll drag out the evidence if you like, but you won’t read it, be bored and it won’t change your mind. This is the Internet after all.

Anyway, there is a book in the OT called “Proverbs” and here is a really good one:

Proverbs 22:6 Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn away.

Yeah, yeah brain washing but it’s so effective it’s incredible. Trained my son with good study habits when he was only 5 years old. He is currently in high school and has never brought home a grade lower than a 95%. I know, I know academics are good and faith is really bad. For you maybe, but as a parent and a believer it’s smart to lay the ground work early with everything from nutrition and study habits to the existence of God.

You should consider something. If there is a God and Satan exists who are you serving today?

339

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

My safety net is the people in my life that love me, and that I love, unconditionally. It is also a clear conscience from knowing that despite being imperfect, I genuinely try to live according to my moral values. I’m happy, growing, and at peace in my life and that’s really all anyone can ask.
[/quote]

Your safety net sucks my friend. They can love the heck out of you for the next 50 years, but when your time is up they won’t be there no one will. It will be you and God, the God you refuse to believe in because his word is in conflict with what you’ve chosen to do with your life. You’ve rejected God and whether you believe it or not you will be rejected by God someday. That’s the safety net that I am referring to. Some don’t want to hear this because their knee jerk response is “I have to believe out of fear?” And to that I say, why not we do everything else to either gain reward or avoid punishment, the rest makes perfect sense to me.

As to living by your own morals - When someone approaches you and tries to beat you with a stick (may it never happen) because that speaks to their moral values what does that leave us?

I know none of this will resonate with you right now, but we all change as we age. [/quote]

BELIEVE IN GOD OR DIE ALONE!

He’s not a seven year old you can scare into belief.[/quote]

No but he has a soul that can be saved!

340

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

My safety net is the people in my life that love me, and that I love, unconditionally. It is also a clear conscience from knowing that despite being imperfect, I genuinely try to live according to my moral values. I’m happy, growing, and at peace in my life and that’s really all anyone can ask.
[/quote]

Your safety net sucks my friend. They can love the heck out of you for the next 50 years, but when your time is up they won’t be there no one will. It will be you and God, the God you refuse to believe in because his word is in conflict with what you’ve chosen to do with your life. You’ve rejected God and whether you believe it or not you will be rejected by God someday. That’s the safety net that I am referring to. Some don’t want to hear this because their knee jerk response is “I have to believe out of fear?” And to that I say, why not we do everything else to either gain reward or avoid punishment, the rest makes perfect sense to me.

As to living by your own morals - When someone approaches you and tries to beat you with a stick (may it never happen) because that speaks to their moral values what does that leave us?

I know none of this will resonate with you right now, but we all change as we age. [/quote]

BELIEVE IN GOD OR DIE ALONE!

He’s not a seven year old you can scare into belief.[/quote]

So you didn’t even believe in god until you were scared into it…what a waste of your life… pity the fool.[/quote]

Sometimes fear is not a bad thing. Such as a health fear of walking down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood. Or a healthy fear of gaining fat around the middle from a bad diet. No, no some people have fear all wrong. I think it has to do with our society and young strong healthy men thinking that they must not fear. A healthy fear of the Lord is a good thing. In fact the Bible says that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. But, some demean it as if it matters. One can believe for a multitude of reasons. Love, fear, happiness, whatever. Let’s not get caught up in the “so you believe because you’re a afraid HA HA SISSY.” Come on really - The point is where will you spend eternity?