Atheism-o-phobia Part 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
341

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

My safety net is the people in my life that love me, and that I love, unconditionally. It is also a clear conscience from knowing that despite being imperfect, I genuinely try to live according to my moral values. I’m happy, growing, and at peace in my life and that’s really all anyone can ask.
[/quote]

Your safety net sucks my friend. They can love the heck out of you for the next 50 years, but when your time is up they won’t be there no one will. It will be you and God, the God you refuse to believe in because his word is in conflict with what you’ve chosen to do with your life. You’ve rejected God and whether you believe it or not you will be rejected by God someday. That’s the safety net that I am referring to. Some don’t want to hear this because their knee jerk response is “I have to believe out of fear?” And to that I say, why not we do everything else to either gain reward or avoid punishment, the rest makes perfect sense to me.

As to living by your own morals - When someone approaches you and tries to beat you with a stick (may it never happen) because that speaks to their moral values what does that leave us?

I know none of this will resonate with you right now, but we all change as we age. [/quote]

BELIEVE IN GOD OR DIE ALONE!

He’s not a seven year old you can scare into belief.[/quote]

So you didn’t even believe in god until you were scared into it…what a waste of your life… pity the fool.[/quote]

Sometimes fear is not a bad thing. Such as a health fear of walking down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood. Or a healthy fear of gaining fat around the middle from a bad diet. No, no some people have fear all wrong. I think it has to do with our society and young strong healthy men thinking that they must not fear. A healthy fear of the Lord is a good thing. In fact the Bible says that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. But, some demean it as if it matters. One can believe for a multitude of reasons. Love, fear, happiness, whatever. Let’s not get caught up in the “so you believe because you’re a afraid HA HA SISSY.” Come on really - The point is where will you spend eternity?

[/quote]

In a grave to rot back into the earth or cremated. hence don’t waste your ONE life - Unfortunately we’ll never know who was right/wrong - but ignorance is a powerful emotion. good luck.

342

You can’t tell me there’s not just a bit of projection going on here. Wny do atheists always assume that we Christians are these fearful, miserable, creatures who spend all their time holding themselves back from what they really desire out of the fear of eternal damnation? It really doesn’t make any sense.

I can assure you I am one of the most content, happy people you’ll ever meet. Many if not most of the other Christians I associate with are, as well. If I knew I had to die tomorrow, I certainly would not feel as if I had “wasted” my life. And if you guys are right, it doesn’t even make any sense to gloat about it because the outcome it going to be exactly the same. We’ll both go to the grave thinking we know what’s going to be or not be on the other side. Indeed, I would surmise that, in the final moments of life, it is the Christians who, right or wrong, are going to pass away more peaceful and content.

343

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

My safety net is the people in my life that love me, and that I love, unconditionally. It is also a clear conscience from knowing that despite being imperfect, I genuinely try to live according to my moral values. I’m happy, growing, and at peace in my life and that’s really all anyone can ask.
[/quote]

Your safety net sucks my friend. They can love the heck out of you for the next 50 years, but when your time is up they won’t be there no one will. It will be you and God, the God you refuse to believe in because his word is in conflict with what you’ve chosen to do with your life. You’ve rejected God and whether you believe it or not you will be rejected by God someday. That’s the safety net that I am referring to. Some don’t want to hear this because their knee jerk response is “I have to believe out of fear?” And to that I say, why not we do everything else to either gain reward or avoid punishment, the rest makes perfect sense to me.

As to living by your own morals - When someone approaches you and tries to beat you with a stick (may it never happen) because that speaks to their moral values what does that leave us?

I know none of this will resonate with you right now, but we all change as we age. [/quote]

BELIEVE IN GOD OR DIE ALONE!

He’s not a seven year old you can scare into belief.[/quote]

So you didn’t even believe in god until you were scared into it…what a waste of your life… pity the fool.[/quote]

Sometimes fear is not a bad thing. Such as a health fear of walking down a dark alley in a bad neighborhood. Or a healthy fear of gaining fat around the middle from a bad diet. No, no some people have fear all wrong. I think it has to do with our society and young strong healthy men thinking that they must not fear. A healthy fear of the Lord is a good thing. In fact the Bible says that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord. But, some demean it as if it matters. One can believe for a multitude of reasons. Love, fear, happiness, whatever. Let’s not get caught up in the “so you believe because you’re a afraid HA HA SISSY.” Come on really - The point is where will you spend eternity?

[/quote]

In a grave to rot back into the earth or cremated. hence don’t waste your ONE life - Unfortunately we’ll never know who was right/wrong - but ignorance is a powerful emotion. good luck.[/quote]

I thought the same things when I was in my 20’s. The possibility for change is always there. I don’t know of many people who believe the very same things they did when they were younger. Keep an open mind and continue to evolve.

Take care,

Zeb

344

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I don’t buy into an ought not being able to be derived from an is. If you don’t do something you ought to do, then there are consequences whether a person chooses to ignore them or not. [/quote]

Sorry, consequences are also oughts. [/quote]

?
[/quote]

A consequence implies an outcome that is either “good” or “bad.” So you are still stuck in the loop of trying to refute an ought with another ought.

345

Maybe the atheist should concern himself less with the religious transmitting faith to their children, and start actually having children.

346

[quote]Cortes wrote:
You can’t tell me there’s not just a bit of projection going on here. Wny do atheists always assume that we Christians are these fearful, miserable, creatures who spend all their time holding themselves back from what they really desire out of the fear of eternal damnation? It really doesn’t make any sense.[/quote]

Because you portray yourself as such when you say God is the source of morality and give lectures on “saving souls”. Don’t do bad stuff or you won’t get into heaven. That sort of thing. Being good for the sake of being good should be enough, and yet somehow it isn’t.

347

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Maybe the atheist should concern himself less with the religious transmitting faith to their children, and start actually having children.[/quote]

I don’t like children. It’s better for me, and for them, not to have kids.

348

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Indeed, I would surmise that, in the final moments of life, it is the Christians who, right or wrong, are going to pass away more peaceful and content. [/quote]

The fact that this comforts you is worrying to me. Peaceful that you covered your bases…i smell a bitch in my gym!

Im just going to train all my life and when the devil comes a knocking imma knock him the fuck out. Soz religion is BS

349

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:
Indeed, I would surmise that, in the final moments of life, it is the Christians who, right or wrong, are going to pass away more peaceful and content. [/quote]

The fact that this comforts you is worrying to me. Peaceful that you covered your bases…i smell a bitch in my gym!

Im just going to train all my life and when the devil comes a knocking imma knock him the fuck out. Soz religion is BS[/quote]

That’s awesome.

I bet you can curl, like, 300lbs, can’t you?

350

The fear of death is the main drive behind religion. It’s the main drive behind much of what we do. And that’s fine if you’re into that sort of thing.

351

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Being good for the sake of being good should be enough…[/quote]

Okay, cool. I can definitely roll with that. I happen to feel like “brainwashing” children from young age is “good.” On what authority do you oppose me?

352

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The fear of death is the main drive behind religion. It’s the main drive behind much of what we do. And that’s fine if you’re into that sort of thing. [/quote]

The need for self-affirmation is the main drive behind atheism. It’s the main drive behind much of what we do. And that’s fine in you’re into that sort of thing.

353

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The fear of death is the main drive behind religion. It’s the main drive behind much of what we do. And that’s fine if you’re into that sort of thing. [/quote]

The need for self-affirmation is the main drive behind atheism. It’s the main drive behind much of what we do. And that’s fine in you’re into that sort of thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-affirmation[/quote]

I have no problems with that. I think almost everything and anything we do is somehow motivated as a form of self-affirmation. “Self” is all we know, and as a consequence, everything we believe about “self” in- and after death, is dependant on this knowledge.

354

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The fear of death is the main drive behind religion. It’s the main drive behind much of what we do. And that’s fine if you’re into that sort of thing. [/quote]

The need for self-affirmation is the main drive behind atheism. It’s the main drive behind much of what we do. And that’s fine in you’re into that sort of thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-affirmation[/quote]

I have no problems with that. I think almost everything and anything we do is somehow motivated as a form of self-affirmation. “Self” is all we know, and as a consequence, everything we believe about “self” in- and after death, is dependant on this knowledge.
[/quote]

That was very well said.

355

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:
The fear of death is the main drive behind religion. It’s the main drive behind much of what we do. And that’s fine if you’re into that sort of thing. [/quote]

The need for self-affirmation is the main drive behind atheism. It’s the main drive behind much of what we do. And that’s fine in you’re into that sort of thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-affirmation[/quote]

I have no problems with that. I think almost everything and anything we do is somehow motivated as a form of self-affirmation. “Self” is all we know, and as a consequence, everything we believe about “self” in- and after death, is dependant on this knowledge.
[/quote]

I know you don’t have any problem with it. That’s why you so frustrate me sometimes :wink:

What’s funny to me, though, is that this post of yours is a confirmation of the massive bias in the post your wrote before it.

Neither you nor Kip Dynamite knows the heart of anyone but your own self. It may make you feel good to say that the theists are just clinging to their fantasy like a child does a security blanket, but what it finally amounts to is the kinds of posts that you wrote “GOOD DISCUSSION” about earlier on. It’s a childish put-down without any basis in empirical knowledge.

Truth is, we don’t know what motivates you atheists just the same as you don’t know what motivates us. Maybe we are religious because the only way we can cope with reality in the face of our eventual demise is to construct a fantasy world to comfort us. And maybe you guys are atheists because you secretly hold sexual perversions that are so far from acceptable to even the most liberal of societies that you must reject God to stay out of cognitive dissonance and justify your sick desires.

:smiley:

You know I’m joking, but both statements are equally provable.

356

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Then i don’t understand what you’re getting at.
[/quote]

I’m attempting to demonstrate to you that you do actually believe that certain acts are unequivocally moral or immoral.

You can come up with all the explanations and justifications and postulations you want to, but in the end, everyone except for maybe true sociopaths ends up having to admit that there are certain “truths,” he holds to be “self-evident.”

[/quote]

Cortes, there are things i would only do in extreme situations, and there are things i would never do no matter the circumstance. What i would never do [cheat on my wife, for instance] some people don’t think twice about.

Joining an army, go abroad and invade a country is another thing i would never do.

And yet, these immoral acts aren’t perceived that way by many, many people. Would i ever kill a baby? No, i would not. Do i think that people who do kill babies are immoral? Yes, because the act of killing a baby is something i would never do.

Still, babies are killed everyday by people who think they’re doing the right thing. Why is that Cortes? Is it because what one finds moral changes with circumstance? I think so.

What i think are immoral acts are acts i’d never do myself.[/quote]

Totally beside the point.

What another person feels means nothing. What’s important is that you believe there IS a moral standard, as you hold yourself to it, would never violate it in certain respects, and you use this standard when comparing the acts of others (indeed, you are using it in this very post).

My entire point, from months ago on the Arrest the Pope thread, even, has been this. Press hard enough, and, unless they are a total, out and out sociopath, everyone ends up admitting that there are certain acts that they feel are just fucking wrong no matter what.

And at this point, my friend, I can point to Sloth’s recent posts to forlife about such a moral code either being a lie (which I certainly don’t think is the case with you), an actual Law which exists independent of the physical universe, or just the same as the faith/ignorance/protectionary mechanism-based fantasy delusions we Christians comfort ourselves with.

Something tells me you are not really cool with options 2 or 3, either. [/quote]

I never denied having a moral standard Cortes. Whatever gave you that idea?
[/quote]

Well, can you clarify for me what your definition of a moral standard is, right here and now? Maybe that’s why we keep going round and round and ending up in the same place.

Because I was under the distinct impression that you had a set of feelings about what is right and wrong, influenced by biology, society, and your own circumstances. And if this is so, my statement stands, and you are going to have to either choose option 1, 2, or 3, or provide me with a plausible option 4.

For clarification. Your statement: I have a moral standard.

So, it follows:

  1. I don’t really have a moral code. I’ve just been trolling you guys. I’m actually a nihilist. Haha! Good one, eh?

  2. Yeah, I guess you’re right, Cortes. There really is such a thing as a Moral Law out there. It can be discovered, and is, at its core, unchanging throughout time, location or circumstance. Certain acts are wrong under any circumstances.

  3. My moral code is valid, but there is no Moral Law. The moral codes of others are valid so long as they do not deviate too far from my moral code. How do I know this? Faith! Divine revelation! Praise be to my Conscience, for It is Good.

4.[You can fill this in, but I really do not see too much wiggle room past the first three options, given what you’ve stated so far.]

357

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Then i don’t understand what you’re getting at.
[/quote]

I’m attempting to demonstrate to you that you do actually believe that certain acts are unequivocally moral or immoral.

You can come up with all the explanations and justifications and postulations you want to, but in the end, everyone except for maybe true sociopaths ends up having to admit that there are certain “truths,” he holds to be “self-evident.”

[/quote]

Cortes, there are things i would only do in extreme situations, and there are things i would never do no matter the circumstance. What i would never do [cheat on my wife, for instance] some people don’t think twice about.

Joining an army, go abroad and invade a country is another thing i would never do.

And yet, these immoral acts aren’t perceived that way by many, many people. Would i ever kill a baby? No, i would not. Do i think that people who do kill babies are immoral? Yes, because the act of killing a baby is something i would never do.

Still, babies are killed everyday by people who think they’re doing the right thing. Why is that Cortes? Is it because what one finds moral changes with circumstance? I think so.

What i think are immoral acts are acts i’d never do myself.[/quote]

Totally beside the point.

What another person feels means nothing. What’s important is that you believe there IS a moral standard, as you hold yourself to it, would never violate it in certain respects, and you use this standard when comparing the acts of others (indeed, you are using it in this very post).

My entire point, from months ago on the Arrest the Pope thread, even, has been this. Press hard enough, and, unless they are a total, out and out sociopath, everyone ends up admitting that there are certain acts that they feel are just fucking wrong no matter what.

And at this point, my friend, I can point to Sloth’s recent posts to forlife about such a moral code either being a lie (which I certainly don’t think is the case with you), an actual Law which exists independent of the physical universe, or just the same as the faith/ignorance/protectionary mechanism-based fantasy delusions we Christians comfort ourselves with.

Something tells me you are not really cool with options 2 or 3, either. [/quote]

I never denied having a moral standard Cortes. Whatever gave you that idea?
[/quote]

Well, can you clarify for me what your definition of a moral standard is, right here and now? Maybe that’s why we keep going round and round and ending up in the same place.

Because I was under the distinct impression that you had a set of feelings about what is right and wrong, influenced by biology, society, and your own circumstances. And if this is so, my statement stands, and you are going to have to either choose option 1, 2, or 3, or provide me with a plausible option 4.

For clarification. Your statement: I have a moral standard.

So, it follows:

  1. I don’t really have a moral code. I’ve just been trolling you guys. I’m actually a nihilist. Haha! Good one, eh?

  2. Yeah, I guess you’re right, Cortes. There really is such a thing as a Moral Law out there. It can be discovered, and is, at its core, unchanging throughout time, location or circumstance. Certain acts are wrong under any circumstances.

  3. My moral code is valid, but there is no Moral Law. The moral codes of others are valid so long as they do not deviate too far from my moral code. How do I know this? Faith! Divine revelation! Praise be to my Conscience, for It is Good.

4.[You can fill this in, but I really do not see too much wiggle room past the first three options, given what you’ve stated so far.][/quote]

How come morals can’t be derived from natural law? Like there’s only so many ways a star can form, there are only so many ways a decision can be moral.

358

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Maybe the atheist should concern himself less with the religious transmitting faith to their children, and start actually having children.[/quote]

I don’t like children. It’s better for me, and for them, not to have kids.[/quote]

If overpopulation is your concern, I wouldn’t worry too much about it in Westernized society. In fact in many European nations, the problem they’re having is that they don’t have enough young bodies for the job market. I actually agree with Sloth on this one. Overpopulation is really a problem in the underdeveloped countries. I wish there weren’t so many atheists that thought it’s doing the Earth a disservice by adding a couple or so more people on the planet.

359

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:
In a grave to rot back into the earth or cremated. hence don’t waste your ONE life - Unfortunately we’ll never know who was right/wrong - but ignorance is a powerful emotion. good luck.[/quote]

If we’re right, we all will know.

360

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Being good for the sake of being good should be enough, and yet somehow it isn’t.[/quote]

No, you do good for goodness’ sake. Aquinas will tell you that is the faith of an adult. However, there is more to life than that.