Atheism-o-phobia Part 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
301

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
why would you want to scare them if they are biologically programmed to listen to adults ?
telling them “be christian my son” wouldn’t be enough ?

and btw, how much power and money can you get from children frightened by boogeymen stories ?

sorry, it’s still absurd, or incredibly simplistic. [/quote]

Because children form ideas later in life and tend to break away from bad ones. If you add in something like hell, it’s more likely that they will continue to believe in the fairy tale. It’s about reinforcing the belief in the mind of a child so that when they become an adult, they keep the “faith”, or tend to come back to it should they stray. The fact that most people remain in the faith of their parents should tell you a lot.

Parent: BELIEVE IN GOD! WHY? BECAUSE I SAID SO!

Parent: GOD CREATED HELL! IF YOU DO THAT GOD WILL SEND YOU THERE!

Parent: THE CHURCH IS YOUR KEY TO SALVATION! IT CAN STOP YOU GOING TO HELL!

Church: THE CHURCH NEEDS MONEY! And for only a lifetime of easy payments of 20% of your salary, you too can own beachfront property in heaven! But that’s not all, as a sign of our thanks, we’ll also throw in this state of the art hotplate! Call now![/quote]

Any parent that would tell a child that the Church is the key to salvation does not understand Christianity.
[/quote]

Sigh, that was a (very) condensed version. But thanks for missing the point.[/quote]

Didn’t miss your point, but thanks for ducking my answer.

302

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth, the right reason is to do a moral act for the sake of the act itself, and not with the ulterior motive of getting a divine reward for doing so.[/quote]

We should do a thing just to do the thing.[/quote]

Exactly. Given that, why do you need a supernatural scorekeeper ready to hand out punishments and rewards, when true morality is defined by the act itself?[/quote]

Because he’s there and we are lead to worship. Even though we don’t always agree with the Bible’s basic doctrines we still try hard to keep them and continue on the correct path.

You?

303

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

Religion thrives on carrot-and-stick tactics. As I understand it, there’s a fair bit of fire and brimstone in catho/islam. It is extremely effective on impressionable, imaginative minds. Worked a charm on me for example.[/quote]

Are you supposed to explain complicated doctrines to a 7 year old? Tell me how do you guide your children toward God without giving them first the most basic teachings?
[/quote]

Why not wait until they are older? And more capable of understanding?

304

[quote]forlife wrote:
Zeb, think about an atheist who gives his life to save his child, or even a stranger. He’s doing so because he values their life over his own, not because he wants a warm fuzzy feeling, since according to his own belief system, he won’t be around to enjoy it.[/quote]

Serving another person whether it be washing his feet as Christ did with the Apostles, or the ultimate gift of giving your life for his is I think hardwired into our brains. Those who are more in tuned to this are more apt to save a life and sacrifice their own. I think this cuts through every religion and even into the non religious. BUT, that does not mean that God didn’t put it there.

Whether you believe in God or not you are still a creation of God, and there is no escaping that. That’s why you will feel guilt and shame for certain things until your conscience is seared to a point of no return. You can deny gravity as well but if you jump off a building your belief system will fail you.

Someday you’re going to jump off a big building. I hope you have a safety net.

305

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Whether you believe in God or not you are still a creation of God, and there is no escaping that. That’s why you will feel guilt and shame for certain things until your conscience is seared to a point of no return. You can deny gravity as well but if you jump off a building your belief system will fail you.
[/quote]

GET OUTTA HERE… - That(people preaching stupid analogies) and the fact humans are so easily impressionable is the core reason religions still exist…but not for the fact there are so many people doing it, religion would be kept in the lunatic asylums.

306

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

Religion thrives on carrot-and-stick tactics. As I understand it, there’s a fair bit of fire and brimstone in catho/islam. It is extremely effective on impressionable, imaginative minds. Worked a charm on me for example.[/quote]

Are you supposed to explain complicated doctrines to a 7 year old? Tell me how do you guide your children toward God without giving them first the most basic teachings?
[/quote]

How about you give them the capability to think for themselves, allow them to grow up like a child (without the trauma of hell, the guilt of sin) and let them decide when they’re old enough to grasp complex doctrines?

307

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

Religion thrives on carrot-and-stick tactics. As I understand it, there’s a fair bit of fire and brimstone in catho/islam. It is extremely effective on impressionable, imaginative minds. Worked a charm on me for example.[/quote]

Are you supposed to explain complicated doctrines to a 7 year old? Tell me how do you guide your children toward God without giving them first the most basic teachings?
[/quote]

How about you give them the capability to think for themselves, allow them to grow up like a child (without the trauma of hell, the guilt of sin) and let them decide when they’re old enough to grasp complex doctrines?
[/quote]

Because then they wont be brainwashed!

They will still probably end up believing anyway, just because their parents do (Dont want to dissapoint daddy)

308

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

Religion thrives on carrot-and-stick tactics. As I understand it, there’s a fair bit of fire and brimstone in catho/islam. It is extremely effective on impressionable, imaginative minds. Worked a charm on me for example.[/quote]

Are you supposed to explain complicated doctrines to a 7 year old? Tell me how do you guide your children toward God without giving them first the most basic teachings?
[/quote]

How about you give them the capability to think for themselves, allow them to grow up like a child (without the trauma of hell, the guilt of sin) and let them decide when they’re old enough to grasp complex doctrines?
[/quote]

Reach replacement level fertility rates.

309

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

Religion thrives on carrot-and-stick tactics. As I understand it, there’s a fair bit of fire and brimstone in catho/islam. It is extremely effective on impressionable, imaginative minds. Worked a charm on me for example.[/quote]

Are you supposed to explain complicated doctrines to a 7 year old? Tell me how do you guide your children toward God without giving them first the most basic teachings?
[/quote]

Why not wait until they are older? And more capable of understanding?[/quote]

Why not wait until they are older to tell them not to play in traffic? Why not wait until they are older to involve them in sports? Why not wait until they are older to teach them about good nutrition.

Uh huh.

310

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth, the right reason is to do a moral act for the sake of the act itself, and not with the ulterior motive of getting a divine reward for doing so.[/quote]

We should do a thing just to do the thing.[/quote]

Exactly. Given that, why do you need a supernatural scorekeeper ready to hand out punishments and rewards, when true morality is defined by the act itself?[/quote]

Because he’s there and we are lead to worship. Even though we don’t always agree with the Bible’s basic doctrines we still try hard to keep them and continue on the correct path.

You?
[/quote]

I’m just pointing out that you don’t need to believe in a supernatural being to value love, integrity, and courage nor do you need the lure of divine rewards to integrate these values into your life. Morality doesn’t require belief in the supernatural, and religion has no exclusive claim on it.

311

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Zeb, think about an atheist who gives his life to save his child, or even a stranger. He’s doing so because he values their life over his own, not because he wants a warm fuzzy feeling, since according to his own belief system, he won’t be around to enjoy it.[/quote]

Serving another person whether it be washing his feet as Christ did with the Apostles, or the ultimate gift of giving your life for his is I think hardwired into our brains. Those who are more in tuned to this are more apt to save a life and sacrifice their own. I think this cuts through every religion and even into the non religious. BUT, that does not mean that God didn’t put it there.

Whether you believe in God or not you are still a creation of God, and there is no escaping that. That’s why you will feel guilt and shame for certain things until your conscience is seared to a point of no return. You can deny gravity as well but if you jump off a building your belief system will fail you.

Someday you’re going to jump off a big building. I hope you have a safety net.
[/quote]

I’m glad you agree it’s possible to have morals without needing a supernatural belief or motivation. See if you can convince Sloth of that.

My safety net is the people in my life that love me, and that I love, unconditionally. It is also a clear conscience from knowing that despite being imperfect, I genuinely try to live according to my moral values. I’m happy, growing, and at peace in my life and that’s really all anyone can ask.

312

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Whether you believe in God or not you are still a creation of God, and there is no escaping that. That’s why you will feel guilt and shame for certain things until your conscience is seared to a point of no return. You can deny gravity as well but if you jump off a building your belief system will fail you.
[/quote]

the fact humans are so easily impressionable is the core reason religions still exist…but not for the fact there are so many people doing it, religion would be kept in the lunatic asylums. [/quote]

You can say that about anything what does that really mean? That you choose not to believe in God does not mean that you too are not impressionable. Nor does it mean that you don’t worship certain things. What ever is at the top of your list in importance, something that you believe in and feel you need in your life is the very thing that you worship. You can say that you think for yourself and have drawn your own conclusions, but so have I. As I’ve stated, I grew up Catholic, left the church studied Buddhism, and other spiritual sects and eventually after many years ended up a Christian in a non-denominational church. This has been my walk. Everyone has to find their own path and try to think for themselves. But with that said we are all still impressionable (that includes you too) that’s why Proctor and Gamble spends 1 billion dollars per year in advertising. What ever has captured your attention, for what ever reason, that’s what you’ll follow.

313

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

Religion thrives on carrot-and-stick tactics. As I understand it, there’s a fair bit of fire and brimstone in catho/islam. It is extremely effective on impressionable, imaginative minds. Worked a charm on me for example.[/quote]

Are you supposed to explain complicated doctrines to a 7 year old? Tell me how do you guide your children toward God without giving them first the most basic teachings?
[/quote]

How about you give them the capability to think for themselves, allow them to grow up like a child (without the trauma of hell, the guilt of sin) and let them decide when they’re old enough to grasp complex doctrines?
[/quote]

And in the meantime we can also avoid telling our children that playing in traffic is dangerous. We wouldn’t want to scare them.

314

[quote]Rza UK wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

Religion thrives on carrot-and-stick tactics. As I understand it, there’s a fair bit of fire and brimstone in catho/islam. It is extremely effective on impressionable, imaginative minds. Worked a charm on me for example.[/quote]

Are you supposed to explain complicated doctrines to a 7 year old? Tell me how do you guide your children toward God without giving them first the most basic teachings?
[/quote]

How about you give them the capability to think for themselves, allow them to grow up like a child (without the trauma of hell, the guilt of sin) and let them decide when they’re old enough to grasp complex doctrines?
[/quote]

Because then they wont be brainwashed!

They will still probably end up believing anyway, just because their parents do (Dont want to dissapoint daddy)[/quote]

Don’t get me wrong I am amused by all of the 20 somethings who have rebelled. I wonder how many refuse to believe because Daddy does? None of us are Psychologists but I do wonder the effect either way.

315

[quote]forlife wrote:

I’m just pointing out that you don’t need to believe in a supernatural being to value love, integrity, and courage nor do you need the lure of divine rewards to integrate these values into your life. Morality doesn’t require belief in the supernatural, and religion has no exclusive claim on it.
[/quote]

If we are hardwired to avoid pain and seek pleasure (and we are). Then we do in fact as a people need those very things in our life. We do just about everything in our lives based on some kind of reward and punishment. Did you go to work today when you didn’t feel like it? Tell me why? Did you spend time with your significant other today? Tell me why. There are countless examples. Yet, there can be no after life of reward or punishment from a life lived a certain way?

316

[quote]forlife wrote:

My safety net is the people in my life that love me, and that I love, unconditionally. It is also a clear conscience from knowing that despite being imperfect, I genuinely try to live according to my moral values. I’m happy, growing, and at peace in my life and that’s really all anyone can ask.
[/quote]

Your safety net sucks my friend. They can love the heck out of you for the next 50 years, but when your time is up they won’t be there no one will. It will be you and God, the God you refuse to believe in because his word is in conflict with what you’ve chosen to do with your life. You’ve rejected God and whether you believe it or not you will be rejected by God someday. That’s the safety net that I am referring to. Some don’t want to hear this because their knee jerk response is “I have to believe out of fear?” And to that I say, why not we do everything else to either gain reward or avoid punishment, the rest makes perfect sense to me.

As to living by your own morals - When someone approaches you and tries to beat you with a stick (may it never happen) because that speaks to their moral values what does that leave us?

I know none of this will resonate with you right now, but we all change as we age.

317

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

Religion thrives on carrot-and-stick tactics. As I understand it, there’s a fair bit of fire and brimstone in catho/islam. It is extremely effective on impressionable, imaginative minds. Worked a charm on me for example.[/quote]

Are you supposed to explain complicated doctrines to a 7 year old? Tell me how do you guide your children toward God without giving them first the most basic teachings?
[/quote]

How about you give them the capability to think for themselves, allow them to grow up like a child (without the trauma of hell, the guilt of sin) and let them decide when they’re old enough to grasp complex doctrines?
[/quote]

Because then they wont be brainwashed!

They will still probably end up believing anyway, just because their parents do (Dont want to dissapoint daddy)[/quote]

Don’t get me wrong I am amused by all of the 20 somethings who have rebelled. I wonder how many refuse to believe because Daddy does? None of us are Psychologists but I do wonder the effect either way.
[/quote]

I agree, it could work the other way too.

318

Even if I agreed with your contention that we are all hedonists, there are inherent rewards for loving people, aside from the desire for supernatural brownie points. Bottom line is that believing in the supernatural is not a prerequisite to living a moral life.

Unfortunately, your safety net argument ignores the fact that billions of people have supernatural safety nets different from your own. You can’t objectively prove that yours is any more real than theirs, so you are subject to the same risks you believe I’m bound to experience.

I prefer to base my beliefs on what I know to be true, rather than on what I want or fear to be true. And as I’ve said before, any truly benevolent, omniscient god knows my heart and my intent. Not that I think one exists, but if he/she/it does, I can stand before the throne with integrity.

319

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Then i don’t understand what you’re getting at.
[/quote]

I’m attempting to demonstrate to you that you do actually believe that certain acts are unequivocally moral or immoral.

You can come up with all the explanations and justifications and postulations you want to, but in the end, everyone except for maybe true sociopaths ends up having to admit that there are certain “truths,” he holds to be “self-evident.”

[/quote]

Cortes, there are things i would only do in extreme situations, and there are things i would never do no matter the circumstance. What i would never do [cheat on my wife, for instance] some people don’t think twice about.

Joining an army, go abroad and invade a country is another thing i would never do.

And yet, these immoral acts aren’t perceived that way by many, many people. Would i ever kill a baby? No, i would not. Do i think that people who do kill babies are immoral? Yes, because the act of killing a baby is something i would never do.

Still, babies are killed everyday by people who think they’re doing the right thing. Why is that Cortes? Is it because what one finds moral changes with circumstance? I think so.

What i think are immoral acts are acts i’d never do myself.[/quote]

Totally beside the point.

What another person feels means nothing. What’s important is that you believe there IS a moral standard, as you hold yourself to it, would never violate it in certain respects, and you use this standard when comparing the acts of others (indeed, you are using it in this very post).

My entire point, from months ago on the Arrest the Pope thread, even, has been this. Press hard enough, and, unless they are a total, out and out sociopath, everyone ends up admitting that there are certain acts that they feel are just fucking wrong no matter what.

And at this point, my friend, I can point to Sloth’s recent posts to forlife about such a moral code either being a lie (which I certainly don’t think is the case with you), an actual Law which exists independent of the physical universe, or just the same as the faith/ignorance/protectionary mechanism-based fantasy delusions we Christians comfort ourselves with.

Something tells me you are not really cool with options 2 or 3, either.

320

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

My safety net is the people in my life that love me, and that I love, unconditionally. It is also a clear conscience from knowing that despite being imperfect, I genuinely try to live according to my moral values. I’m happy, growing, and at peace in my life and that’s really all anyone can ask.
[/quote]

Your safety net sucks my friend. They can love the heck out of you for the next 50 years, but when your time is up they won’t be there no one will. It will be you and God, the God you refuse to believe in because his word is in conflict with what you’ve chosen to do with your life. You’ve rejected God and whether you believe it or not you will be rejected by God someday. That’s the safety net that I am referring to. Some don’t want to hear this because their knee jerk response is “I have to believe out of fear?” And to that I say, why not we do everything else to either gain reward or avoid punishment, the rest makes perfect sense to me.

As to living by your own morals - When someone approaches you and tries to beat you with a stick (may it never happen) because that speaks to their moral values what does that leave us?

I know none of this will resonate with you right now, but we all change as we age. [/quote]

So would if you’re wrong and as a result, you end up in Tartarus?