Atheism-o-phobia Part 2

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
281

[quote]kamui wrote:

maybe not a straw man, but probably an absurd argument.

to be scared by Hell, you have to be already a christian.
if you are not, you won’t be afraid by it, no matter what the Church tells you about it.

doesn’t sound like an good fear tactic, since you will only scare those who are already in your power, and already giving you money. and no one else.

[quote]problem is that if we (atheists) are wrong, then we get to go “holy sh^t I was wrong there is a god!”
whereas if the beleivers are wrong, they just die, so they never get to find out they are wrong! they die thinking their right! [/quote]

ok, so we have to believe just in case.
but believe in which god(s) exactly ?
because if you choose the wrong one, you may still experiment a “holy sh*t, i was wrong, there is a God and it’s not the one i believed in” moment.[/quote]

Im going to go for Saturnus, at least he’s got a day named after him! what other gods have a day named after them!

If you were brought up in a different country, say pakistan, do you think you would still be of the same faith? No you wouldnt! its what your parents tell you!

282

[quote]kamui wrote:
as we all know, unicorns are white by nature.

if a pink unicorn existed, it would be teratologic specimen.

therefore a pink unicorn deity is logically impossible.[/quote]

It drank a lot of strawberry juice. Its possible.

283

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
The Nazi guard who shoots Jews or loads them into the oven and then goes home to be a loving father to his children is a perfect example of the disconnect provided by religion.[/quote]

Your statement indicates that non-religious atheism has a set of doctrines and dogmas outside of a lack of belief in God(s).[/quote]

How?

284

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
why would you want to scare them if they are biologically programmed to listen to adults ?
telling them “be christian my son” wouldn’t be enough ?

and btw, how much power and money can you get from children frightened by boogeymen stories ?

sorry, it’s still absurd, or incredibly simplistic. [/quote]

Because children form ideas later in life and tend to break away from bad ones. If you add in something like hell, it’s more likely that they will continue to believe in the fairy tale. It’s about reinforcing the belief in the mind of a child so that when they become an adult, they keep the “faith”, or tend to come back to it should they stray. The fact that most people remain in the faith of their parents should tell you a lot.

Parent: BELIEVE IN GOD! WHY? BECAUSE I SAID SO!

Parent: GOD CREATED HELL! IF YOU DO THAT GOD WILL SEND YOU THERE!

Parent: THE CHURCH IS YOUR KEY TO SALVATION! IT CAN STOP YOU GOING TO HELL!

Church: THE CHURCH NEEDS MONEY! And for only a lifetime of easy payments of 20% of your salary, you too can own beachfront property in heaven! But that’s not all, as a sign of our thanks, we’ll also throw in this state of the art hotplate! Call now![/quote]

Any parent that would tell a child that the Church is the key to salvation does not understand Christianity.
[/quote]

…I’m shocked, I thought Mak was a little less sensitive than this. I also thought he was more educated. Christ saves us, it is done through the Church yes, because he speaks through His church. However, the Church does not inherently have saving powers, it all comes from Jesus.

And second, the Church has never said you can buy yourself out of going to Hell.[/quote]

Surely you can see the point he was making? Kids are extremely impressionable and will generally follow their parents’ religion. If hell is thrown into the mix, with all its gruesome details, then yes, it will make them scared to even question their religion. It happens all the time.

It doesn’t matter if the church has/hasn’t said that it is the key to your salvation. As long as they’re the ones clarifying doctrine and dogma, intercessing, selling indulgences (ok, ok, long time ago and mayhaps exaggerated) they will be seen as one of the most important representatives of god on earth. Throw in hell, and they become even more powerful.

Religion thrives on carrot-and-stick tactics. As I understand it, there’s a fair bit of fire and brimstone in catho/islam. It is extremely effective on impressionable, imaginative minds. Worked a charm on me for example.

285

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
why would you want to scare them if they are biologically programmed to listen to adults ?
telling them “be christian my son” wouldn’t be enough ?

and btw, how much power and money can you get from children frightened by boogeymen stories ?

sorry, it’s still absurd, or incredibly simplistic. [/quote]

Because children form ideas later in life and tend to break away from bad ones. If you add in something like hell, it’s more likely that they will continue to believe in the fairy tale. It’s about reinforcing the belief in the mind of a child so that when they become an adult, they keep the “faith”, or tend to come back to it should they stray. The fact that most people remain in the faith of their parents should tell you a lot.

Parent: BELIEVE IN GOD! WHY? BECAUSE I SAID SO!

Parent: GOD CREATED HELL! IF YOU DO THAT GOD WILL SEND YOU THERE!

Parent: THE CHURCH IS YOUR KEY TO SALVATION! IT CAN STOP YOU GOING TO HELL!

Church: THE CHURCH NEEDS MONEY! And for only a lifetime of easy payments of 20% of your salary, you too can own beachfront property in heaven! But that’s not all, as a sign of our thanks, we’ll also throw in this state of the art hotplate! Call now![/quote]

Any parent that would tell a child that the Church is the key to salvation does not understand Christianity.
[/quote]

Sigh, that was a (very) condensed version. But thanks for missing the point.

286

[quote]kamui wrote:
as we all know, unicorns are white by nature.

if a pink unicorn existed, it would be teratologic specimen.

therefore a pink unicorn deity is logically impossible.[/quote]

The pink unicorn is invisible.

287

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Faith is a major wedge between ethics and suffering - where certain actions cause no suffering at all, religion still maintains that the actions are evil and worthy of punishment (sodomy,homosexuality, masturbation). And yet, where suffering and death are found in abundance, their causes are deemed to be “good” (withholding funding for family planning in the third world, prosecuting non-violent drug offenders, preventing stem cell research etc).

The inversion of priorities not only squanders resources and victimizes innocent people, it falsifies our ethics. A more reasonable approach to matters of right and wrong is sorely needed.[/quote]

Sodomy and masturbation are considered evil because it doesn’t allow for the possibility of life.[/quote]

So if a guy rubs one out in his own home, alone, this is a crime worthy of your judgment? Of two consenting adults practice anal or oral sex in their own home, alone, this is a crime worthy of your attention? If a guy tokes up in his own home on the weekend, gets REAAAAL high and falls asleep, this is a crime?[/quote]

I’m not following your first question, maybe I am just reading it weird. If two consenting adults that are married are practicing anal or oral, but the man ejaculates into the vagina, no foul done.

Yes, in America in certain places if you smoke weed you’re committing a crime. [/quote]

Wow. Just wow. So I take it you are against women swallowing then. What a sad life you must live.

288

[quote]krsoneeeee wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
why would you want to scare them if they are biologically programmed to listen to adults ?
telling them “be christian my son” wouldn’t be enough ?

and btw, how much power and money can you get from children frightened by boogeymen stories ?

sorry, it’s still absurd, or incredibly simplistic. [/quote]

Because children form ideas later in life and tend to break away from bad ones. If you add in something like hell, it’s more likely that they will continue to believe in the fairy tale. It’s about reinforcing the belief in the mind of a child so that when they become an adult, they keep the “faith”, or tend to come back to it should they stray. The fact that most people remain in the faith of their parents should tell you a lot.

Parent: BELIEVE IN GOD! WHY? BECAUSE I SAID SO!

Parent: GOD CREATED HELL! IF YOU DO THAT GOD WILL SEND YOU THERE!

Parent: THE CHURCH IS YOUR KEY TO SALVATION! IT CAN STOP YOU GOING TO HELL!

Church: THE CHURCH NEEDS MONEY! And for only a lifetime of easy payments of 20% of your salary, you too can own beachfront property in heaven! But that’s not all, as a sign of our thanks, we’ll also throw in this state of the art hotplate! Call now![/quote]

Any parent that would tell a child that the Church is the key to salvation does not understand Christianity.
[/quote]

…I’m shocked, I thought Mak was a little less sensitive than this. I also thought he was more educated. Christ saves us, it is done through the Church yes, because he speaks through His church. However, the Church does not inherently have saving powers, it all comes from Jesus.

And second, the Church has never said you can buy yourself out of going to Hell.[/quote]

I think you undervalue parents ability to influence their children - Mak is absolutely correct in what he’s saying (but it wouldn’t be true in every single religious person)

Example: I barrack for a football team that plays 1000km away, because my father use to live there…parents are role models and idols, therefore very influential whether are right or wrong …
[/quote]

Agree with you 100%

All the people I know that believe, there parents believe. some of them have never questioned it, they just except it because their parents beleive.

There are so many people I know that support the same football team as their dad even though the club is miles away!

289

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Rza UK wrote:
I guess its just like the movies! you will die, then you will see your body on the floor. You will be slightly see-through, then you get called to heaven or hell! or wonder round the earth because you have unfinished bussiness!
[/quote]

I never once said this or posted anything that could be inferred to this. Straw man. [/quote]

It was only a Joke, I wasnt refering to you.

290

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]kamui wrote:
as we all know, unicorns are white by nature.

if a pink unicorn existed, it would be teratologic specimen.

therefore a pink unicorn deity is logically impossible.[/quote]

The pink unicorn is invisible.[/quote]

So you know it’s pink through doctrines written by men, but inspired by the pink unicorn, right?

291

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth, the right reason is to do a moral act for the sake of the act itself, and not with the ulterior motive of getting a divine reward for doing so.[/quote]

We should do a thing just to do the thing.[/quote]

Exactly. Given that, why do you need a supernatural scorekeeper ready to hand out punishments and rewards, when true morality is defined by the act itself?

292

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Makavali wrote:
Faith is a major wedge between ethics and suffering - where certain actions cause no suffering at all, religion still maintains that the actions are evil and worthy of punishment (sodomy,homosexuality, masturbation). And yet, where suffering and death are found in abundance, their causes are deemed to be “good” (withholding funding for family planning in the third world, prosecuting non-violent drug offenders, preventing stem cell research etc).

The inversion of priorities not only squanders resources and victimizes innocent people, it falsifies our ethics. A more reasonable approach to matters of right and wrong is sorely needed.[/quote]

Sodomy and masturbation are considered evil because it doesn’t allow for the possibility of life.[/quote]

So if a guy rubs one out in his own home, alone, this is a crime worthy of your judgment? Of two consenting adults practice anal or oral sex in their own home, alone, this is a crime worthy of your attention? If a guy tokes up in his own home on the weekend, gets REAAAAL high and falls asleep, this is a crime?[/quote]

I’m not following your first question, maybe I am just reading it weird. If two consenting adults that are married are practicing anal or oral, but the man ejaculates into the vagina, no foul done.

Yes, in America in certain places if you smoke weed you’re committing a crime. [/quote]

Wow. Just wow. So I take it you are against women swallowing then. What a sad life you must live.[/quote]

Imagine how many people there would be if everyone thought like that. There would be a major population problem! I would have a few kids running around myself!

293

[quote]Sloth:
We should do a thing just to do the thing.

Forlife:
Exactly. [/quote]

…

I think you’re missing my point…So we should rob just to rob?

294

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:

So, does it go both ways? Can you think of a situation in which discriminating against another group would be “right?” I’m not talking about protecting oneself, because I am pretty sure that is not what the nightclub owner had in mind. What I mean is, since it’s all relative, is it possible there is place or a time or a state that would allow for blatant discrimination against another group? Another race?

[/quote]

…i see no problem with being intolerant of intolerance. The easy way out of blaming others for my problems, that’s not me. But i don’t think that a system that allows for certain freedoms should have those freedoms used against itself, in order to bring it down. I can’t think of another scenario, to be honest…[/quote]

So, if we define intolerance here as: denying rights or privileges to a certain group of people based upon strictly superficial reasons (different color of skin, for instance) and for no other reason, may I then assume you believe that intolerance is wrong in any case?

Maybe I’m working too hard recently, but I’m having trouble understanding both of your last posts. If you could clarify I’d appreciate it. [/quote]

Not in any case. I’m intolerant of intolerance. I don’t know what more to say.
[/quote]

Re-read my definition. Intolerance is not a group of people nor can it be disenfranchised.
[/quote]

Then i don’t understand what you’re getting at.
[/quote]

I’m attempting to demonstrate to you that you do actually believe that certain acts are unequivocally moral or immoral.

You can come up with all the explanations and justifications and postulations you want to, but in the end, everyone except for maybe true sociopaths ends up having to admit that there are certain “truths,” he holds to be “self-evident.”

295

Zeb, think about an atheist who gives his life to save his child, or even a stranger. He’s doing so because he values their life over his own, not because he wants a warm fuzzy feeling, since according to his own belief system, he won’t be around to enjoy it.

296

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]Sloth:
We should do a thing just to do the thing.

Forlife:
Exactly. [/quote]

…

I think you’re missing my point…So we should rob just to rob? [/quote]

No, you should love people because you actually value human life and well being, not because some supernatural being promised to reward you for doing so.

Again, the point is that people can and do show love, self-sacrifice, and service to others for the sake of the act itself, without needing to believe in the supernatural.

297

[quote]Cortes wrote:

[quote]ephrem wrote:

Then i don’t understand what you’re getting at.
[/quote]

I’m attempting to demonstrate to you that you do actually believe that certain acts are unequivocally moral or immoral.

You can come up with all the explanations and justifications and postulations you want to, but in the end, everyone except for maybe true sociopaths ends up having to admit that there are certain “truths,” he holds to be “self-evident.”

[/quote]

Cortes, there are things i would only do in extreme situations, and there are things i would never do no matter the circumstance. What i would never do [cheat on my wife, for instance] some people don’t think twice about.

Joining an army, go abroad and invade a country is another thing i would never do.

And yet, these immoral acts aren’t perceived that way by many, many people. Would i ever kill a baby? No, i would not. Do i think that people who do kill babies are immoral? Yes, because the act of killing a baby is something i would never do.

Still, babies are killed everyday by people who think they’re doing the right thing. Why is that Cortes? Is it because what one finds moral changes with circumstance? I think so.

What i think are immoral acts are acts i’d never do myself.

298

x

299

[quote]ephrem wrote:
[/quote]

LOL, you knuckle head. I’m not a fan of Robertson’s style of preaching but I know that CBN his company has donated tens of millions of dollars to the disadvantaged. Come on you have to know this.

300

[quote]Magicpunch wrote:

Religion thrives on carrot-and-stick tactics. As I understand it, there’s a fair bit of fire and brimstone in catho/islam. It is extremely effective on impressionable, imaginative minds. Worked a charm on me for example.[/quote]

Are you supposed to explain complicated doctrines to a 7 year old? Tell me how do you guide your children toward God without giving them first the most basic teachings?