[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
but the bigger point I was getting at (and I think one that the OP was wondering about) was that it’s understood that lifters on steroids will benefit from types of training that would be considered “excessive” for natural lifters.[/quote]
…and unfortunately, that is exactly what I see a problem with.
Steroid use or not, this comes down to the needs of the individual. I would base ideas of cardio on overall body weight and composition than I would ever base on “steroids or not”…because using steroids alone does not equal “can do high intensity high frequency” suddenly. It is more likely that someone like that could benefit from higher volume whether they used steroids or not.
[quote]
Yes, most people in the gym could probably build up to training with more volume, intensity, and/or frequency than they currently are, but I think it’s safe to say that even the most experienced natural lifter would not see results on a training program that was specifically-designed for an assisted lifter.[/quote]
I don’t think anyone should be designing programs just based on whether someone is “assisted”.
[quote]magick wrote:
Sprinting and hill runs are very quite tiring on the body and require you to eat a helluva lot of carbs to actually allow you to do them properly and recover from them.[/quote]
This, plus the general wear and tear that can come from a 250+ pound body doing high impact cardio/intervals. Add in the anti-catabolic nature of some AAS (bypassing a common issue with long duration, steady-state cardio), and low intensity work wins for assisted pros, hands-down.
A natural lifter needs to give more consideration to muscle preservation when it comes to fat burning and the if/when/how of cardio. Just like a natural lifter would likely not thrive on the type of high intensity-high volume-high frequency lifting program an assisted lifter may use, they won’t necessarily reap the same rewards from mimicking their methods of cardio.[/quote]
Good post.
I was going to comment on how hard it would be (and not very smart for that matter) on an IFBB or NPC competitors low back, hips, knees, shins, ankles and feet to be out there sprinting. The risk of injury would be very high with all of that muscle they are carrying. Their lower bodies would take a pounding that isn’t needed.
Looks like pretty much everything has been covered.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
…because using steroids alone does not equal “can do high intensity high frequency” suddenly. It is more likely that someone like that could benefit from higher volume whether they used steroids or not.
…
I don’t think anyone should be designing programs just based on whether someone is “assisted”.[/quote]
A lifter on steroids has more training methods available to them than someone who isn’t on AAS, just like a lifter who’s been training for eight years has more training methods available to them than someone training for two months.
So, yes, it’s very possible to design a training program intended to capitalize on the fact that a lifter is assisted. Just like a program could be designed to capitalize someone’s experience as a top-level gymnast, their extra-long arms, or whatever other variable is present in the individual.
It’s unrealistic to think that steroid use does not open the door to the lifter being able to handle a greater workload than they would’ve otherwise been capable of.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I don’t think anyone should be designing programs just based on whether someone is “assisted”.
[/quote]
So the reason thousands of young kids (and even older ones) the world over who read and tried Arnold’s workout from his Bodybuilding Encyclopedia, the one that advocated like 10 sets each of 10 different exercises, training two body parts in the morning and two more in the afternoon, hitting each split 2-3x a week, and didn’t get similar results was solely because they lacked Arnold’s unique genetics, and in no way because he started using PEDs at an early age in dosages that many of his contemporaries quoted in various biographies admit to being scary excessive and they most likely didn’t?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
I don’t think anyone should be designing programs just based on whether someone is “assisted”.
[/quote]
So the reason thousands of young kids (and even older ones) the world over who read and tried Arnold’s workout from his Bodybuilding Encyclopedia, the one that advocated like 10 sets each of 10 different exercises, training two body parts in the morning and two more in the afternoon, hitting each split 2-3x a week, and didn’t get similar results was solely because they lacked Arnold’s unique genetics, and in no way because he started using PEDs at an early age in dosages that many of his contemporaries quoted in various biographies admit to being scary excessive and they most likely didn’t?
I feel there’s an important difference between very low intensity cardio and “steady state”
to me, walking outside or on the treadmill helps me burn calories, but doesn’t require much exertion and doesn’t product a big adaptive response
on the other hand, something “steady state” like jogging is going to require moderate exertion and will produce an adaptive response that goes against protein synthesis
finally, you’ve got high intensity stuff, which obviously works well
it looks like the heavily assisted lifter can get away with being in the middle ground, while a natty definitely can’t
It’s unrealistic to think that steroid use does not open the door to the lifter being able to handle a greater workload than they would’ve otherwise been capable of.[/quote]
[quote]browndisaster wrote:
I feel there’s an important difference between very low intensity cardio and “steady state”
to me, walking outside or on the treadmill helps me burn calories, but doesn’t require much exertion and doesn’t product a big adaptive response
on the other hand, something “steady state” like jogging is going to require moderate exertion and will produce an adaptive response that goes against protein synthesis
finally, you’ve got high intensity stuff, which obviously works well
it looks like the heavily assisted lifter can get away with being in the middle ground, while a natty definitely can’t[/quote]
assisted lifters don’t rely on cardio as much as naturals because some of the substances they use helps them lose fat without the effort.
[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
but the bigger point I was getting at (and I think one that the OP was wondering about) was that it’s understood that lifters on steroids will benefit from types of training that would be considered “excessive” for natural lifters.[/quote]
…and unfortunately, that is exactly what I see a problem with.
Steroid use or not, this comes down to the needs of the individual. I would base ideas of cardio on overall body weight and composition than I would ever base on “steroids or not”…because using steroids alone does not equal “can do high intensity high frequency” suddenly. It is more likely that someone like that could benefit from higher volume whether they used steroids or not.
Dude lol. Chris C point is fairly easy to grasp.
The SAME lifter wouldnt/shouldnt train the same if he was assisted or not…
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
What is a better way to burn fat and save muscle?[/quote]
100 yard Sprints and walk the curves. I understand adding walking to a lifestyle can have a positive effect on fat loss but it is not the best way to burn body fat.
[/quote]
When we say this is a better way to burn body fat, are we saying that in terms of “in a vacuum”, or does this include for a trainee who is extensively engaged in heavy weight training regularly?
For me personally, I find high intensity conditioning tends to put too much stress on my recovery, especially when I am in a caloric deficit and training heavy. I tend to prefer walking because it allows me to still burn fat without exhausting myself further.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
What is a better way to burn fat and save muscle?[/quote]
100 yard Sprints and walk the curves. I understand adding walking to a lifestyle can have a positive effect on fat loss but it is not the best way to burn body fat.
[/quote]
When we say this is a better way to burn body fat, are we saying that in terms of “in a vacuum”, or does this include for a trainee who is extensively engaged in heavy weight training regularly?
For me personally, I find high intensity conditioning tends to put too much stress on my recovery, especially when I am in a caloric deficit and training heavy. I tend to prefer walking because it allows me to still burn fat without exhausting myself further.
EDIT: Looks like I’m a little late to the party.[/quote]
I was trying to give an example of what I thought were better examples of conditioning drills. I understand why walking is used by these bodybuilders but I don’t think it is the best approach for natural trainers
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
What is a better way to burn fat and save muscle?[/quote]
100 yard Sprints and walk the curves. I understand adding walking to a lifestyle can have a positive effect on fat loss but it is not the best way to burn body fat.
[/quote]
When we say this is a better way to burn body fat, are we saying that in terms of “in a vacuum”, or does this include for a trainee who is extensively engaged in heavy weight training regularly?
For me personally, I find high intensity conditioning tends to put too much stress on my recovery, especially when I am in a caloric deficit and training heavy. I tend to prefer walking because it allows me to still burn fat without exhausting myself further.
EDIT: Looks like I’m a little late to the party.[/quote]
I was trying to give an example of what I thought were better examples of conditioning drills. I understand why walking is used by these bodybuilders but I don’t think it is the best approach for natural trainers.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
What is a better way to burn fat and save muscle?[/quote]
100 yard Sprints and walk the curves. I understand adding walking to a lifestyle can have a positive effect on fat loss but it is not the best way to burn body fat.
[/quote]
Bodybuilders (all types) their primary goal is muscle, they don’t care about the BEST way to lose fat, they care about the BEST way to lose fat while at the same time preserving or increasing muscle. The best way to lose fat is whatever they do on the biggest loser, far from what bodybuilders do.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
What is a better way to burn fat and save muscle?[/quote]
100 yard Sprints and walk the curves. I understand adding walking to a lifestyle can have a positive effect on fat loss but it is not the best way to burn body fat.
[/quote]
When we say this is a better way to burn body fat, are we saying that in terms of “in a vacuum”, or does this include for a trainee who is extensively engaged in heavy weight training regularly?
For me personally, I find high intensity conditioning tends to put too much stress on my recovery, especially when I am in a caloric deficit and training heavy. I tend to prefer walking because it allows me to still burn fat without exhausting myself further.
EDIT: Looks like I’m a little late to the party.[/quote]
I was trying to give an example of what I thought were better examples of conditioning drills. I understand why walking is used by these bodybuilders but I don’t think it is the best approach for natural trainers[/quote]
this is completely broscience, but I think walking is the best option outside of higher intensity stuff for natural trainers. I just walk on an incline at 3 mph or go outside for a walk. It burns calories and feels really good in general, but IMO doesn’t cause my body to want to adapt and become a slow twitch endurance guy like I used to be.
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
What is a better way to burn fat and save muscle?[/quote]
100 yard Sprints and walk the curves. I understand adding walking to a lifestyle can have a positive effect on fat loss but it is not the best way to burn body fat.
[/quote]
Bodybuilders (all types) their primary goal is muscle, they don’t care about the BEST way to lose fat, they care about the BEST way to lose fat while at the same time preserving or increasing muscle. The best way to lose fat is whatever they do on the biggest loser, far from what bodybuilders do.[/quote]
That is what my original point was. The best way for a natural to lose fat while at the same time preserving or adding muscle is not long walks. But, a lot of top pros use this method and there are several better approaches for a natural in my opinion.
I do get a few reasons why top pros can and use this approach
-body weight factor effects on bones and joints
-body weight factor on heart stress
-the amount of muscle mass they have therefore their body burns is burning fat at a higher rate
Steroids are the biggest reason or factor in my opinion as to why this approach is used and works so well for them.
When sauce is added to the mix, it makes a completely different recipe
[quote]T3hPwnisher wrote:
What is a better way to burn fat and save muscle?[/quote]
100 yard Sprints and walk the curves. I understand adding walking to a lifestyle can have a positive effect on fat loss but it is not the best way to burn body fat.
[/quote]
When we say this is a better way to burn body fat, are we saying that in terms of “in a vacuum”, or does this include for a trainee who is extensively engaged in heavy weight training regularly?
For me personally, I find high intensity conditioning tends to put too much stress on my recovery, especially when I am in a caloric deficit and training heavy. I tend to prefer walking because it allows me to still burn fat without exhausting myself further.
EDIT: Looks like I’m a little late to the party.[/quote]
Isn’t that you in your picture? Don’t you compete in strongman activities? If I am right about that then, I do appreciate your input, but you are already doing a lot of the conditioning work I would recommend over walking in your strongman training.
Or I should say recommend over walking in regards to this threads topic. I know walking is a very healthy activity.
Isn’t that you in your picture? Don’t you compete in strongman activities? If I am right about that then, I do appreciate your input, but you are already doing a lot of the conditioning work I would recommend over walking in your strongman training.
Or I should say recommend over walking in regards to this threads topic. I know walking is a very healthy activity.[/quote]
That is me in my picture, and I do compete in strongman, but I’m certainly not losing any weight when I am doing all that conditioning. There is no way I could train like that AND be in a caloric deficit. Instead, I am eating like a pig and from not clean sources.
Additionally, when I cut from 202 to 181 for my last powerlifting meet, I did pretty much ZERO conditioning. I just plain didn’t have the energy for it while I was losing 1-2lbs a week. I went walking 1-2 times a week at most. That’s why I’m curious, because I’ve never been able to condition like you are advocating while losing weight.
You have two men both in their 20s. They both are 6ft tall, weigh 180lbs, the same color skin, the same build(not fat leanish 15-25% bodyfat maybe). They both want the same thing. They want to get bigger, leaner, and stronger. They are going to pay your gym membership, food bill, supplement bill, and rent. All you have to do is design a program for them and give them lifting, eating, and conditioning outlines to follow to help them reach their goal. The only difference is one of them is going to be taking PEDs and the other will not. Would you design and give them both the same program?
Isn’t that you in your picture? Don’t you compete in strongman activities? If I am right about that then, I do appreciate your input, but you are already doing a lot of the conditioning work I would recommend over walking in your strongman training.
Or I should say recommend over walking in regards to this threads topic. I know walking is a very healthy activity.[/quote]
That is me in my picture, and I do compete in strongman, but I’m certainly not losing any weight when I am doing all that conditioning. There is no way I could train like that AND be in a caloric deficit. Instead, I am eating like a pig and from not clean sources.
Additionally, when I cut from 202 to 181 for my last powerlifting meet, I did pretty much ZERO conditioning. I just plain didn’t have the energy for it while I was losing 1-2lbs a week. I went walking 1-2 times a week at most. That’s why I’m curious, because I’ve never been able to condition like you are advocating while losing weight.[/quote]
I might be a little slow here. When you were prepping for your last powerlifting meet, were you doing strongman training still? Making a 21lb cut is gonna suck and I can understand. But, you probably agree that those 1-2 times a week walking sessions didn’t do much to help in your cut? What I believe is a natural bodybuilder that has maybe bulked up some in weight, and wants to hold onto the muscle they have gained (or keep adding muscle) but add some conditioning to lose fat should add some of the things you do for strongman training (as conditioning work) instead of walking on a treadmill like pro bodybuilders do