Which video are you referring to?
@dbossa thanks for your time. Last question how much would I up my dose to? And I’ll probably do EOD before I do Ed. If am moving to EOD from e3.5 isn’t it like injecting more anyway?
I may try to inject more e3.5 since an doing that now and feel good
Can you tell me where you learned to fear estrogen? What study when giving men or women testosterone and raising their estrogen caused harm ? None
You have learn to fear something that is beneficial because you have learned from forums unfortunately
Another statement that exposes your complete lack of knowledge. I just don’t have patients with your ignorant level…thank god.
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No. I wouldn’t. Because IDGAF.
Ad hominem. Can’t you do better than that?
You misused a homophone, but I’m ignorant.
Have a nice day!
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I don’t have fear of estrogen , as stated wayyyyy above . I’ve taken 400 mg sustanon a week for 20 weeks with no ai . No doctor supervision of course ,also no blood work (fucking idiot , I know ) and I felt great , no problems . Now that I’m on a DR prescribed program , he has me taking ai . I was just following doctors orders . I mean , they are suppose to be the ones to call the shots right ? But that wasn’t my question , I’m already agreeing that the ai is giving me problems . My question was about the hcg . What are your thoughts ? Should I keep it running ? Or drop it ? WHY?
The last one you posted up . Neil rouser …
Can you explain ? How? Why?
Yeti was addressing @The_Myth… Who will remain just that… A myth. Ignore him.
People always ask that after Rouzier says it. I wish he wouldn’t say it because it always turns into that. The problem is that you have to know and understand the medical benefits literature as a whole in including men and women. None of the men in these forums have any idea of the women’s literature. Now I just say show me where raising it with testosterone has been harmful. Show me where controlling or blocking it has been helpful. Neal uses that number to emphasize when our testosterone is at its peak as is our estrogen when we are young and healthy. We would have to ask Neal for his exact lab reference. People that ask that question would also ask you why someone’s testosterone was 1500 for instance when that is almost 2x normal but yet 15 years ago the upper range of normal for testosterone in some labs was 1500. Everyone is so focused on numbers. By all means, choose a number and run with it. I don’t and neither do the docs in our group.
I can explain why about HCG. There are many doctors in our group each with hundreds of patients. They used to use hcg because they were told they should. They had nothing but issues while using it for the vast majority of men and have since removed it from their protocols. They report back to me with their findings. They don’t have patients on HCG unless sthry need to be fertile. My experiences matched what they told me. Good enough for me. If you still want to take HCG, knock yourself out.
So many bad practitioners out there and I’m sorry you are with one. Unless for fertility I find men do much better with their testosterone optimized without Hcg. Hcg is not actual LH as only the alpha units are the same while the beta units differ. Just google Hcg package insert and look at side effects and look at the symptoms men complain of while on Hcg. Testicular shrinkage is so overblown. It is maybe by a 3rd and I laughed when I read an actual article about that said the only men to really notice it are men who had small testicles to begin with. The AI, Hcg, testosterone “protocol” mix is a outdated non evidence based bro science protocol brought into Medical TRT by the bodybuilding world.
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Yeti308 speaks the truth.
I’m currently taking T 5 days a week, while the other 2 days are reserved for HCG. I am concerned about side effects (facial redness mostly, which my body is very sensitive to), which is why I chose to skip T on HCG days. Would it be better to take T 7 days a week instead of 5? If so, would you recommend a slightly lesser dosage of T on the HCD days? Thanks in advance.
I’m doing subq btw and only doing HCG to remain fertile.
Only your personal doctor can answer that question. Taking Hcg only 2x per week is no guarantee to remain fertile. There are also other methods you doctor can inform you of. Without knowing much more about you, your symptoms, your levels etc…no one can make a informed medical recommendation. Everyone is treated on a case by case basis.
I’m not confusing the two. Synthetic and natural never behave the same, no matter how “Bio-identical” people want to think it is.
Keep us posted PLEASE
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Hi, great question. I’ve listened to the lectures and I understand how this comment can be frustrating:
It’s going to be extremely difficult for someone not trained in the field to try to make sense of this. This issue is further clouded by the fact that no distinction between RIA and LC/MS estradiol methods is being made.
Let’s go to a definitive study of over 3,000 “normal” men age 40 and over:
Go straight to the 99%+tile for testosterone and E2 (Fig. 1 of paper). You can see men top out at 35 nmol/l (T) and 150 pmol/l (E2). Converting this to more commonly used units (on this forum) we get about 1010 ng/dl (Test) and 40.9 pg/ml (E2). That’s a ratio of about 25, which is a function of aromatization (obesity, etc). Compare these values against Arup’s (reference laboratory) upper range:
Also compare the T/E2(LCMS) ratio computed above to the average ratio in Table 1:
Look at these parity plots (as they are typically called). Below, you can see the RIA method for testosterone matches well against LC/MS method. Each point is an individual. E2 immunoassay (non-sensitive) is typically (majority of folks) but not always higher than the LC-MS (sensitive) E2 test. Some of these guys are below the parity line on the plots below.
Ok, let’s take an example of some freak 20 year old walking around with total testosterone level of 1500 ng/dl and assume his aromatization rate is normal (T/ LCMS E2 ratio of 25). Using LC/MS E2 assay he would measure about 60.7 pg/ml (1500/1010*40.9). Now let’s say he gets E2 tested using typical RIA method instead of LC/MS method. Using correlation in second panel of Fig. 3 above we get:
E2 (RIA method) = 4.28 + 1.19*60.7 = 76.5 pg/ml estradiol
So are “most” 20-25 year olds walking around with estradiol levels of 75-100? Well we need to qualify which estradiol test we are talking about and the units. Using gold standard LC/MS method accurate for men, the answer is NO. But in the example calculation above I do demonstrate it’s possible using RIA method. For young men with reasonably high T levels and also higher aromatization ratios, it’s also possible but would seem an exception rather than the rule.
The Devil is in the Details so you can’t throw out numbers unless you qualify the units AND the method when it comes to estradiol.
EDIT: a rather long-winded post to demonstrate the answer to the question. Going straight to Arup’s website (link above), the VAST majority of males over 18 are walking around with actual estradiol levels between 10-42 pg/ml (LC/MS method).
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Another reference laboratory, Mayo Clinic (“sensitive” LCMS assay):
I always find it funny that this test is sometimes called pediatric estradiol test.
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Recent CDC study:
Our method can measure E2 and TT in samples from children, women and men. We measured the total testosterone and estradiol in 250 individual sera from male and female donors (Table 5). In adult males age 18 years and older, serum TT concentrations ranged from 0.62 to 32.5 nM (18.0 ng/dL to 938 ng/dL), and E2 concentrations ranged from 17.3 to 167 pM (4.72–45.6 pg/mL). In women age 18 to 59 years, TT concentrations ranged from 0.28 to 2.55 nM (8.03 to 73.6 ng/dL), and E2 concentrations ranged from 11.4 to 12357 pM (3.11 to 3367 pg/mL). Among women age 60 years and older, TT concentrations ranged from 0.26 to 4.13 nM (7.54 to 119 ng/dL), and E2 levels ranged from 9.25 to 1152 pM (2.52 to 314 pg/mL). In children at 6–11 years of age, 90% of boys had E2 levels below 11 pM (3 pg/mL), while in girls the E2 concentrations ranged from 2.39 to 177 pM (0.65–48.3 pg/mL). TT levels were detectable in all 100 samples from children, with boys had much broader range (0.03–12.6 nM (0.77–363 ng/dL)) comparing to girls (0.04–0.85 nM (1.07–24.6 ng/dL)
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Thank you so much for that @readalot. I was positive you were Dr Scott Howell for a moment there. Scott confirmed that it’s not him. Any chance you could PM me as Scott and I are rather curious. He said your writing style looks quite familiar.