Are These Side Effects from HCG and/or Anastrozole?

Pharma / TRT Testosterone Replacement
1

Whats going on all ? I have a question that some or may not be able to give me some insight on . It has to do with ai and hcg … I’ll try to keep it short and to the point … so , I’ve taken an “cycle “ 3 years before trt . If you could even call it that :
150 mg sustanon - 150 mg equipoise EOD . No estrogen blockers , no hcg . This went for about 22 weeks . I felt like a fucking MACHINE all day every day . Never got bloods during this time but all I know is I constantly felt like a super human .skip to 3 years later …

My trt protocol now has me pinning 65 mg of test c every 3.5 days , with 250 mg hcg 2xweekly , and .5 anastrozole 2x weekly , and I feel shitty , like super fucking worn out . Morning wood : some days I can’t keep it down , some days it’s non existent . Thankfully everything works with a woman present , but it’s still not the same as before trt . Get some serious bloating and water retention in abdomen and lower legs, puffy hands and feet (my socks leave deep indents on my lower calves when I take them off )My last bloods came back
Test 1463 (250- 1100)
Free test 294.1 (35-155)
Estradiol 41 (<39)
Tsh .68 (.4- 4.50)
T3 free 3.7 (2.3-4.2)
T4 free 1.0 (.8-1.8)

So my question is , can all the sides be from hcg , and or anastrozole ?? How could it be that I was taking almost 3x more , 2x as often with no blockers and I felt great ? Now I’m on this strict protocol that’s “formulated by a professional with 20 years expirence” but now I feel like shit . Constant fatigue , carb and sugar cravings like mad , bloating , and some dick desensitivity ???From everything I’m reading , elevated E2 is not a bad thing and shouldn’t cause these problems if your test is high enough . Any ideas ?
I have a full panel on my last blood draw , so if there’s more you might need to see … I probably have it …

2

How old are you and how long have you been on your current program?

Given your previous history, and results, I think I would drop anastrozole. I would also consider dropping the hCG. Why are you taking it? If you can, post the remainder of your blood work.

3

I would drop the AI, personally. And probably the HCG, but not at the same time, so you know the effects or lack of effects separately. That being said, 150 mg of equipoise is not comparable to anything that you’re doing now. That dose is not really comparable mg for mg with test. I’d start with dropping the AI.
That’s a crazy high total test for 130 mg a week BTW.

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4

Contrary to what @hardartery is saying, which is illogical, I would strongly advise to drop BOTH the AI and HCG immediately. Be aware that it will take a few weeks for your body to balance out and you may feel worse before you feel better (normal). I’ve seen high total test using smaller doses than yours so, no it isn’t “crazy high” anything. If you are pinning IM I would HIGHLY recommend moving to subQ and doing daily injections. I never felt right pinning twice weekly. Moving to EOD made me feel better and moving to ED made me feel even better. I could never go back to pinning twice weekly now. Next time you run labs, ensure that you have Free T levels measured as they are significantly more important than Total T.

5

I’m not sure on what planet it’s normal to hit 1463 on 130 mg, but then again you are in your own world. It’s “illogical” to tell somebody to change one thing at a time. How stupid are you?

6

There is one guy in our group who takes 15mg daily SubQ and that slightly over 1600 ng/dL labs from that. Not the first time I saw something out of the ordinary like that but it happens. He’s now on 10mg daily.

There are two things causing issues with him: the AI and the HCG. They are both causing him issues. You’re telling him to stop taking one but continue to take the other thing that is causing him issues. I would much prefer that he stops taking BOTH things that are causing him issues, focus on getting his free T levels optimized, and can later introduce something else to test.

So, you’re drinking cyanide and hydrochloric acid. I tell you to stop drinking both of them. You say you should only stop drinking one of them to see what affect it is and call my suggestion stupid. Wow! @mrz123 do yourself a favor and drop both. Focus on dialing in your T dose and then go from there. Adding DHEA later on works great for a lot of guys. Adding pregnenelone is hit or miss - either love it or hate it. Up to you to find out what is best for you.

7

I told him he should stop taking both. One at a time. That’s how you know which thing does what to you. Stopping everything at once is less productive long-term. He may need HCG at some point for fertility. There is a good thread on here discussing some positives of it, like the fact that it encourages production of more than just testosterone and estrogen in men. He should not have started all of them together either, but that cannot be undone at this point. The AI is probably he problem, so it logically should be the first to go. However, if he drops both at once, he’s never going to be sure of that and might decide to try one or the other again in the future. He can avoid a mistake later by dropping one thing at a time now. We don’t know enough about him to say more than that, who knows what other underlying conditions he might have?

8

You drop BOTH as they are problematic, especially the AI. The priority right now is that he FEELS better. Once he has his T levels dialed in, he can then re-introduce HCG IF there is a need to be fertile. Virtually everyone I know felt WORSE once they added HCG to their protocol and immediately stopped taking it once their significant other got pregnant (which was also my case). I know very few men who feel better on HCG. Perhaps 1 in 15. Feel better first, get a baseline protocol that works, and experiment later. Why delay feeling good just to see what side effects the HCG is giving you?

9

That’s a new one. Do they feel worse, or just not any better? If they feel worse, why do you think that is the case?

10

You completely lost me here.

To the OP…

Your dose is too high. Period. Your Free T is at supraphysiological levels and you are running the equivalent of a mini cycle. I know that you aren’t running that big of a dose, but the HCG is bringing your feedback loop on line so now you are mixing exogenous test with indigenous test and it’s pushing your serum levels too high. Bringing that loop online also allows for estrogen to start being produced by the testicles again, which is untouchable by your AI.

Forget about EVER getting that “cycle high” on TRT. That’s not the purpose of therapy.

Either

  1. Drop the HCG and the AI (one at a time would be wise if you want to see which compound is effecting you in which ways…smart… or both at the same time…dealers choice).

Or…

  1. Drop the AI only and lower your test dosage.
1 Like
11

This is incorrect. When you drop the HCG your T levels will drop. When you drop the AI, more of your T will get converted to E2 leaving you with less testosterone. This is one of the reasons why guys feel better when they take an AI because they wind up with MORE testosterone. In each of the cases above your T levels are going to drop. So why would you possibly want to take LESS T?? If anything you require MORE T to compensate for the loss.

1 Like
12

Because he needs to drop his T levels. He’s way too high. As evidenced here…

@dbossa
Let me ask you a question. How long have you been on TRT and what dr / clinic are you under?

13

Original blood draw :
White blood cell -6.1 (3.9-11.1) k/ul
Red blood cell -4.50. (4.20-6.00) m/ul
Hemoglobin 14.6. (13.2-18.0) g/dl
Hematocrit 42.6. (38.5-54) %
Mcv 95 (80-100) fl
MCHC 34.2 (31-37) g/dl
Rdw 13.3 (11-15)%
Platelet count 180 (140-400) k/ul
Mpv 9.0 (7.5-11.6)fl

Glucose 79. (65-100) mg/dl
Bun 21 (6-20) mg/dl
Creatinine , serum 1.0 (.7-1.3)mg/dl
Sodium 143 (136-145)mmol/l
Potassium 4.4 (3.5-5.1)mmol/l
Chloride 10.1 (8.5-10.6)mmol/l
Co2 26 (20-31)mmol/l
Calcium 10.1 (8.5-10.6)mg/dl
Total protein 7.4 (5.7-8.2)g/dl
Albumin 4.9(3.2-4.8)g/dl
Globulin 2.5 (2.1-3.6)g/dl
Bilirubin,total .8 (.3-1.2) mg/dl
Alkaline phosphate 67 ( 45-115) u/l
Alt 61 (0-48)u/l
AST 52 (0-38) u/l
Albumin/globulin ratio 2.0 (.8-2.0)
Gfr estimated 91
Trygliceriides 32 (<150)
Cholesterol total 192 (<200)
Hdl 82 (>40)
LDL 104 (<100)
Chol/hdl ratio 2.3 <5.0
T3 free 3.3 (2.3-4.2) pg/ml
T4 free 1.04 (.89-1.76)ng/dl
Tsh 1.153 (.550-4.780)u/ml
Psa .735 (0-4) ng/m

E2 31 (0-39)pg/ml
Dhea 285.8 ( 34.5-568.9)ug/dl
Test total 731 (280-1100)ng/dl
Test free 7.2 (1.9-27)ng/dl
Igf1 87 ( 137-199) ng/ml

Cortisol 5.8 (3.4-16.8) ug/dl

After this draw , I was prescribed 150 mg test cyp I injection weekly . Along with .5mg anastrozole 3xweekly , 250 iu hcg 2x weekly.
Felt pretty good throughout the 10 week period , was feeling a lot of ups and downs due to one large shot weekly …
Approx 10 weeks later

Blood draw 2 :
Test free 218.6 (35-155)pg/ml
Test total 1647 (250-1100)
Ultra sensitive E2 9 ( <29)

After blood draw , I’m prescribed new protocol taking 135 mg test cyp one injection weekly
.5 mg anasteozole 2x weekly
250 hcg 2x weekly
Not feeling right , no energy , bloating , desensitized dick … call back for more blood work one month later

Blood draw 3 :
Cholesterol 179 (<200)ml/dl
Hdl 60 (>40)mg/dl
Tryglicerides 41 (<150) mg/dl
LDL 107 (<100)
Cholesterol/hdl ratio 3.0((<5.0)
Non hdl cholesterol 119 (130)
Glucose 99 (65-99)mg/dl
Urea nitrogen 25 (7-25)mg/dl
Creatinine 1.7 (.60-1.35)mg/dl
Egfr non afr 81 (>or=60)
Sodium -141(135-146)mmol/l
Potassium 4.1 (3.5-5.3)mmol/l
Chloride 104 (98-110)mmol/l
Carbon dioxide 30 (20-32)mmol/l
Calcium 10.0 (8.6-10.3)mg/dl
Protein total 7.0 (6.1-8.1)g/dl
Albumin 4.4 (1.9-3.7)g/dl
Globulin 2.6 (1.0-2.5)mg/dl calc
Albumin/globulin ratio 1.7 (1.0-2.5) calc
Bilirubin total .4 (.2-1.2)mg/dl
Alkaline phosphate 66 (40-115)u/l
AST 38 (10-40)u/l
ALT 41 (9-46)I/l
Tsh .68 (.40-4.50)miu/l
T4 free 1.0 (.8-1.8)
T3 free 3.7 (2.3-4.2)pg/ml
Igf1 114 (53-331)ng/ml
Zscore -.5 (-2.0-+ 2.0)sd
White blood cell 7.4 (3.8-10.8) thousand/ul
Red blood cell 4.77 (4.2-5.80)million/ul
Hemoglobin 15.0 (13.2-17.1) g/dl
Hematocrit 43.9 (38.5-50)%
MCV 92.0(80-100)fl
MCH 31.4(27-33)pg
MCHC 34.2(32-36)g/dl
RDW 12.3(11-15)%
Platelet count 260(140-400)thousand/ul
MPV 9.6(7.5-12.5)fl
Absolute neutrophils 3870(1500-7800)cells/ul
Absolute lymphocytes 2738(850-3900)cells/ul
Absolute monocytes 644(200-950)cells/ul
Absolute boisonphilis 111(15-500)cells/ul
Absolute basophils 37 (0-200) cells/ul
Absolute uncleared RBC 0(0) cells/ul
Neutrophils 52.3%
Lymphocytes 37.0%
Monocytes 8.7%
Eosinophilis 1.5%
Basophils .5%
Cortisol 12.6 mcg/dl
Dhea sulfate 247(106-464)mcg/dl
Estradiol 41 (<or=39)
Testosterone 1463(250-1100)
Free test 294.1 (35-155)
Psa total 1.7(<or=4.0)

After these results I’m told my estrogen is too high , and that’s why I feel like shit . I’m told to split my injection in 2 . 65 mg test cyp 2x weekly , 250iu hcg , and .5mg anastrozole 3x weekly . As I stated above , I’ve taken 150 mg sustanon along with 150 mg equipoise eod for 22 weeks with no AI or hcg and felt great all the way through . Leaves me wondering , is the anastrozole or hcg causing side effects ? Could the equipoise be the reason I felt so good last time ?

1 Like
14

Doesn’t make sense . People walk around with test levels above 5000 and feel great . Also , I stated that I’ve taken 150mg sustanon and 150mg equipoise EOD (Wichita is about 3x more test +eq )for 22 weeks and felt phenomenal the whole time . I didn’t get blood work , but I gaurantee my test was 2x as high as it is now …

15

Who doesn’t feel great on a cycle? You stay that way for long enough and these questions you are asking will mean way less than they do now.

The question you’ll be asking a year from now is “where is the nearest hospital” and “what is the best method for preventing a second heart attack”.

There’s a reason they call it a cycle. It’s temporary and you can’t stay at those levels.

17

33yo . Healthy diet , exercise and lift daily . I was taking the hcg bc it was prescribed , and I kind of like having my balls be a normal size . I also heard it was good to keep the signal for LH coming so my natural production keeps going while taking test .

18

I’m 33 . Been on current program since March 7th of this year . Posted all bloodwork I’ve had done during current program . I’m very low in body fat . Highly active , I’m a roofer and I run around with my heart rate up around 130-160 for about 10 hrs a day . Then I get a lift in most nights if I have the energy… or enough coffee .

19

Thanks for your input . I understand I won’t get the “cycle high “ that’s not what I’m aiming for . I’m only bringing up the large cycle I did bc by the amount I was taking , my test and e2 levels were sure to be way higher than they are now …but I felt great . So my question is , is it the hcg and ai that’s causing these issues ?

20

I realize you felt great, and I’ll re-iterate what I said here…

Now as to whether it’s the HCG or the AI, my money would be on HCG, but not in a direct sense. The HCG is merely mimicking LH, which is stimulating the testicles to produce again. I have a feeling that E2 is higher right at this moment than it was when you did that last blood draw because of your “excessive water” statements. Your AI can’t touch estrogen created by the testicles because, well…it’s not created by aromatase, it’s produced.

I stand by the fact that your real problem is nothing more than your total and free T being too high for too long. Your body is trying to reach homeostasis and the bar is too high right now. HCG can be beneficial, so if you want to continue taking it then you should lower the test dose. If you want to drop it, then you could do that as well. You will want to drop the AI as well because as your natural production drops back offline, the only E2 you will have is what is being aromatased. You stated that you have a very low BF% so that won’t be much, so taking an AI is almost certainly going to make you crash your E2. That’s a very bad thing.

Bottom line is that for therapy purposes and general well being, you’ll want to get your Free T to the upper part of the lab range and cruise there, whether that be with 150mg test /week, or with 80mg test and 500-1000iu HCG. What matters is where the levels fall with the combined affects of everything you’re taking, and how you feel at those levels.

An AI (aromatase inhibitor) makes no sense for you. If you have a low BF%, then you don’t have much of an avenue for aromatase in the first place (aromatase happens in the body fat).

21

His T levels are too high for who exactly? Some range on a lab based on a population of sick people? Those are considered optimized levels. His free T converts to 30 ng/dL. That’s where most men start to feel better. Some need as much as 60. You’re stuck with the lab ranges and numbers. I’ve been on TRT for 4 years. 3.5 was a waste of time as I was brainwashed by bro science as found here. Dr Keith Nichols turned that all around for me as he has for a ton of other people. You would consider yourself very lucky to know the man.