[quote]tom63 wrote:
If you give up your citizenship, it does matter and does not allow you to serve as president.
[/quote]
Interesting variety on the “Birthers.” Do I understand you correctly that you believe that Obama “gave up” his citizenship in order to attend a school in Indonesia? Is this correct?
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
tom63 wrote:
If you give up your citizenship, it does matter and does not allow you to serve as president.
Interesting variety on the “Birthers.” Do I understand you correctly that you believe that Obama “gave up” his citizenship in order to attend a school in Indonesia? Is this correct?[/quote]
If a country does not recognize dual citizenship, and there is a requirement such as being a citizen to attend a school like he did, you must give up your current citizenship.
As far as I understand this would prevent you from being president. you must be a natural born citizen, for him to regain his citizenship, he would be a naturalized citizen and not allowed to hold the office.
also, from my understanding, at that time Indonesia did not have dual citizenship, so to attend school he would have to give up his US citizenship. This isn’t right wing whacko stuff.
We know he went to school there, so why not clear everything up and show all the records?
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
What? I really think you are missing the point. in order to of legally attended school in Indonesia he would have had to renounce US citizenship. It has nothing to do with school rules “superseding” American law. It has to do with him renouncing his own citizenship. It’s possible his father lied, or cheated to get around Indonesian law, but that part of the equation would be pure speculation. If he was legally attending school, he was no longer a US citizen.
[/quote]
[quote]
I don’t know that the constitution is specific enough to deny him if he was natural born and at some point lost citizenship.
I’m more curious as to other things that might be in those sealed records. I mean if he obviously is a citizen, then there should seem some other reason to keep them hidden.
Please elaborate on these “sealed records.”
Uh, he never released his school or medical records. [/quote]
This is hard for me to believe. Please tell me what school or medical records you’re looking for.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
Jab1 wrote:
Anyone who doesn’t want national health care is pretty crazy I reckon.
Anyone who DOES want national health care is batshit insane I reckon.
Why would I chose a service provider – wait, scratch that. Why would I want to be forced to have a provider chosen for me? Does the government know my body better than me? What the fuck do a bunch of lifetime politicians know about health and medicine?[/quote]
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Actual measured statistics vs. “I have had good experience.” Hmmm, yeah the recorded measured statistics MUST be wrong if your experience was good.
And just so you know, genius, it still gets paid for with money from your pocket (assuming you have a job) so how is it free?[/quote]
[quote]tom63 wrote:
so you are a fool. I have health insurance, and tell me why I should get lesser care to care for someone who does not have it. why shoudl my care be diluted.
You have good experiences if you are young and healthy and don’t need it. Get a problem and you ahve a problem.
[/quote]
I’m not going to throw around any more insults because evidently you guys are just ignorant of the situation in the UK. (Ignorant in the literal, not pejorative sense).
Firstly, I’m not going to just take randomly quoted statistics; show me the report. But that is a by-the-by, everyone here know the waiting lists are appalling.
Secondly, yes, it comes out of our pockets (well not mine, I’m a student). It’s called tax. You get taxed too right? My tax goes towards something like that which can help me, so I’m happy with that.
Thirdly, we have private health care in this country too. What this means is people have CHOICE. If you cannot afford private, you get the NHS. If you can, you can. As a matter of fact many people who can afford private use the NHS anyway because despite all your statistics, it’s still one of the best health services in the world.
So actually, I’m not telling anyone to get “lesser health care”. Keep your private stuff, we have.
As for government bods running things they know nothing about, well every country has that problem. Education and the curriculum here is another example.
Additionally, I find it hilarious that people consider Obama to be radically left. He would be considered probably a little left of centre in this country.
And one more thing, Republicans are a lot more religious, right? (Pun intended). I consider all religious people to be on a cline of crazy.
[quote]Jab1 wrote:
malonetd wrote:
Jab1 wrote:
Anyone who doesn’t want national health care is pretty crazy I reckon.
Anyone who DOES want national health care is batshit insane I reckon.
Why would I chose a service provider – wait, scratch that. Why would I want to be forced to have a provider chosen for me? Does the government know my body better than me? What the fuck do a bunch of lifetime politicians know about health and medicine?
DoubleDuce wrote:
Actual measured statistics vs. “I have had good experience.” Hmmm, yeah the recorded measured statistics MUST be wrong if your experience was good.
And just so you know, genius, it still gets paid for with money from your pocket (assuming you have a job) so how is it free?
tom63 wrote:
so you are a fool. I have health insurance, and tell me why I should get lesser care to care for someone who does not have it. why shoudl my care be diluted.
You have good experiences if you are young and healthy and don’t need it. Get a problem and you ahve a problem.
I’m not going to throw around any more insults because evidently you guys are just ignorant of the situation in the UK. (Ignorant in the literal, not pejorative sense).
Firstly, I’m not going to just take randomly quoted statistics; show me the report. But that is a by-the-by, everyone here know the waiting lists are appalling.
[/quote]
so you admit wait times are appalling? and ask for evidence? It’s there, you just have to look. Wait times kill people too.
Yes, I get taxed, and I will get taxed more if we socialize medicine. Maybe to you there is not difference in having thousands of dollars more than they already take, but then again, it’s not your money you’re talking about being a student.
Yes, you can buy additional coverage. In this way it is less socialized than Canada (where private coverage is illegal), but enrollment in the program is still compulsory and is not a choice. They still take your money to pay for it. Congrats on your government allowing you to do what you want with the earnings they let you kept.
No ofenese, but you aren’t his constituency. In addition he would look slightly to the right in the former USSR, but that means nothing.
Nice, actually conservative political ideology and “conservative” christian ideology are vastly different. Obama claims to be a christian. But I guess you are making fun of the more christiany people? There are plenty of threads on here debating the logic of a higher power, feel free to use the search function.
And one more thing, Democrats believe the deity of government, right? (Pun intended). I consider all religious people to be on a cline of crazy.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
What? I really think you are missing the point. in order to of legally attended school in Indonesia he would have had to renounce US citizenship. It has nothing to do with school rules “superseding” American law. It has to do with him renouncing his own citizenship. It’s possible his father lied, or cheated to get around Indonesian law, but that part of the equation would be pure speculation. If he was legally attending school, he was no longer a US citizen.
[/quote]
I think it’s serious enough and solid for full disclosure, something Obama has refused.
[quote]
I don’t know that the constitution is specific enough to deny him if he was natural born and at some point lost citizenship.
I’m more curious as to other things that might be in those sealed records. I mean if he obviously is a citizen, then there should seem some other reason to keep them hidden.
Please elaborate on these “sealed records.”
Uh, he never released his school or medical records.
This is hard for me to believe. Please tell me what school or medical records you’re looking for.[/quote]
Uh all of them. All he ever released of medical records was a very brief (1 page) health summary written by his current physician.
He also denied media access to any school records.
By contrast, when the questions of McCains health and origin were raised, he released all of his. Some 1200 pages worth. Which the media then used to attack him as an old dieing senile man.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
[/quote]
Gambit,
I don’t think I’ve ever posted in the politics forum before. I’m sincerely curious how you can be a resident of the District of Columbia and support the democratic party? The Democrats have held power in the city since forever and it’s a complete shit-hole.
Forgive me if I’m making an incorrect assumption on your party affiliation.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
so you admit wait times are appalling? and ask for evidence? It’s there, you just have to look. Wait times kill people too.[/quote]
Yes, some waiting lists are appallingly long. I know, I worked in a hospital. We had many initiatives to reduce times, but it’s difficult. More people use a free service. I’m asking for evidence of his statistic though, that’s a different thing entirely and also entirely warranted I feel.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Yes, I get taxed, and I will get taxed more if we socialize medicine. Maybe to you there is not difference in having thousands of dollars more than they already take, but then again, it’s not your money you’re talking about being a student.[/quote]
I don’t really know anything about this so won’t comment.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Yes, you can buy additional coverage. In this way it is less socialized than Canada (where private coverage is illegal), but enrollment in the program is still compulsory and is not a choice. They still take your money to pay for it. Congrats on your government allowing you to do what you want with the earnings they let you kept.[/quote]
That system in Canada is pretty stupid. But what I find more stupid, and in fact if I were the sort of person to get offended this would offend me, is your selfishness.
You know what, I have been taxed in the past and contributed. And even if I am healthy all my life and never need to use the NHS I am happy for that money to be used to help someone. National Insurance (which is what pays for the NHS) is a comparatively small amount. Think of it like charity, almost. Additionally, it’s an insurance policy for me too. Congratulations on your use of sarcasm though. Not so much your spelling.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
No ofenese, but you aren’t his constituency. In addition he would look slightly to the right in the former USSR, but that means nothing.[/quote]
Why on earth would that offend me? I know I’m not. It was an observation. I think it means quite a lot actually.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Nice, actually conservative political ideology and “conservative” christian ideology are vastly different. Obama claims to be a christian. But I guess you are making fun of the more christiany people? There are plenty of threads on here debating the logic of a higher power, feel free to use the search function.[/quote]
Like I said, all religious people are on a cline of crazy. Republicans, democrats, anyone. It was a (somewhat intentionally inflammatory) comment based on the title of this thread. It just so happens that the right wing has the more particularly crazy bunch of Christians in its fold, so that makes the Republicans more crazy to me.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
And one more thing, Democrats believe the deity of government, right? (Pun intended). I consider all religious people to be on a cline of crazy.[/quote]
I’m pretty sure this makes precisely no sense.
[quote]Jab1 wrote:
I don’t really know anything about this so won’t comment.
[/quote]
This should have been the answer you gave for ALL your non-points here in this response.
Additionally, the fact that you are “happy” to give away your extra money for others and that I am selfish to not want that is definately radical.
If humans were not selfish we would all DIE! Self preservation is key to sustaining life.
You are certainly a Saint for liking the idea of giving all your extra money away to programs the GOVERNMENT mandates. You are exactly the person they want and have molded the last 30 years or so in the school systems.
I however, like so many others here, and a MAJORITY of the US population who are LEGAL citizens, and who work for a living, believe that Nationalizing Heathcare (which raises taxpayer cost and eliminates free choice of doctors), or Banks, or Companies with our tax dollars is FORCED financial servitude, and not much better than slavery.
If I want to give my money away, I should have the right to chose my charity. I would rather use my money to ensure my childrens future, not yours.
[quote]Jab1 wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
so you admit wait times are appalling? and ask for evidence? It’s there, you just have to look. Wait times kill people too.
Yes, some waiting lists are appallingly long. I know, I worked in a hospital. We had many initiatives to reduce times, but it’s difficult. More people use a free service. I’m asking for evidence of his statistic though, that’s a different thing entirely and also entirely warranted I feel.
DoubleDuce wrote:
Yes, I get taxed, and I will get taxed more if we socialize medicine. Maybe to you there is not difference in having thousands of dollars more than they already take, but then again, it’s not your money you’re talking about being a student.
I don’t really know anything about this so won’t comment.
DoubleDuce wrote:
Yes, you can buy additional coverage. In this way it is less socialized than Canada (where private coverage is illegal), but enrollment in the program is still compulsory and is not a choice. They still take your money to pay for it. Congrats on your government allowing you to do what you want with the earnings they let you kept.
That system in Canada is pretty stupid. But what I find more stupid, and in fact if I were the sort of person to get offended this would offend me, is your selfishness.
[/quote]
LOL. now if you are opposed to socialized medicine you are selfish. And it’s really easy to be giving when it’s not your money. You are greatly mistaking assuming because I don’t believe in stealing money that people have earned to pay for those who are irresponsible I’m selfish. And when I go to a restaurant and expect everyone else to pay for their own dinner, I’m selfish too huh?
That is the place of charities, not government. I currently donate as much as I’m able to charity. I give money every time I checkout at the grocery store and tithe my church both of which does far better with that money than any bureaucracy would.
But if you really felt that way you wouldn?t need the government to force your hand.
By the way, positive atheism is a religion.
And it was a very degrading, ignorant, intolerant, derogatory, immature, logic-less statement at that.
It made exactly as much sense as your statement.
My point is that liberals tend to remove god from the equation and replace it with the state. That the state is endowed with god-like powers (more than those given an individual man) and that obedience to it is the path to solving earthly problems. Socialized medicine is a great example. State worship is a religion for man liberals.
I myself believe the authority of the government comes from the people and as such, it cannot have more rights than a free man. You cannot steal your neighbor?s money and use the money for charitable works, neither then can the government.
As you are assumingly atheist (not crazy by your logic), justify human rights without a higher power. If you believe that a human being is born with certain rights that should be honored regardless of situation (life liberty and such) then the only justification is a higher power. You cannot scientifically derive human rights.
I think it?s crazy not to believe in human rights, therefore it is crazy to be an atheist.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
What? I really think you are missing the point. in order to of legally attended school in Indonesia he would have had to renounce US citizenship. It has nothing to do with school rules “superseding” American law. It has to do with him renouncing his own citizenship. It’s possible his father lied, or cheated to get around Indonesian law, but that part of the equation would be pure speculation. If he was legally attending school, he was no longer a US citizen.
I think it’s serious enough and solid for full disclosure, something Obama has refused.
[/quote]
You fundamentally mis-understand how one obtains or loses citizenship if you think that attending a school between the ages of 6-10 can somehow remove citizenship. I don’t really know what else there is to say about it.
[quote]
I don’t know that the constitution is specific enough to deny him if he was natural born and at some point lost citizenship.
I’m more curious as to other things that might be in those sealed records. I mean if he obviously is a citizen, then there should seem some other reason to keep them hidden.
Please elaborate on these “sealed records.”
Uh, he never released his school or medical records.
This is hard for me to believe. Please tell me what school or medical records you’re looking for.
Uh all of them. All he ever released of medical records was a very brief (1 page) health summary written by his current physician.
He also denied media access to any school records.
By contrast, when the questions of McCains health and origin were raised, he released all of his. Some 1200 pages worth. Which the media then used to attack him as an old dieing senile man.[/quote]
Here’s the medical…according to the campaign, he simply has no surgery or hospital stays. What information are you looking for?
The overview was contained in a one-page letter with no supporting documentation. “With no surgery or hospital stays, this is a complete summary of his doctor visits and medical records for the past two decades,” said campaign spokeswoman Jen Psaki. Obama is in 'excellent health' and fit to be president, his doctor says
I have not been able to find his transcripts in my 10min google search. But his graduation Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law and was the head of the Harvard Law Review… Would you like to see his grade in constitutional law or something?
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
What? I really think you are missing the point. in order to of legally attended school in Indonesia he would have had to renounce US citizenship. It has nothing to do with school rules “superseding” American law. It has to do with him renouncing his own citizenship. It’s possible his father lied, or cheated to get around Indonesian law, but that part of the equation would be pure speculation. If he was legally attending school, he was no longer a US citizen.
I think it’s serious enough and solid for full disclosure, something Obama has refused.
You fundamentally mis-understand how one obtains or loses citizenship if you think that attending a school between the ages of 6-10 can somehow remove citizenship. I don’t really know what else there is to say about it.
[/quote]
It has nothing to do with attending a foreign school somehow voiding your citizenship. It is however pretty good evidence that at some point he renounced US citizenship. It is not that going to school there would have voided anything. It’s what he most probably had to do in order to attend there that did.
Like I said, it is enough at least to demand disclosure.
[quote]
I don’t know that the constitution is specific enough to deny him if he was natural born and at some point lost citizenship.
I’m more curious as to other things that might be in those sealed records. I mean if he obviously is a citizen, then there should seem some other reason to keep them hidden.
Please elaborate on these “sealed records.”
Uh, he never released his school or medical records.
This is hard for me to believe. Please tell me what school or medical records you’re looking for.
Uh all of them. All he ever released of medical records was a very brief (1 page) health summary written by his current physician.
He also denied media access to any school records.
By contrast, when the questions of McCains health and origin were raised, he released all of his. Some 1200 pages worth. Which the media then used to attack him as an old dieing senile man.
Here’s the medical…according to the campaign, he simply has no surgery or hospital stays. What information are you looking for?
The overview was contained in a one-page letter with no supporting documentation. “With no surgery or hospital stays, this is a complete summary of his doctor visits and medical records for the past two decades,” said campaign spokeswoman Jen Psaki. Obama is in 'excellent health' and fit to be president, his doctor says
I have not been able to find his transcripts in my 10min google search. But his graduation Magna Cum Laude from Harvard Law and was the head of the Harvard Law Review… Would you like to see his grade in constitutional law or something?[/quote]
That is a very brief summary letter written by his doctor about his health. That is not his medical records.
The NYT demanded the actual records from McCain before he was the Rep. nominee.
[quote]sen say wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
Gambit,
I don’t think I’ve ever posted in the politics forum before. I’m sincerely curious how you can be a resident of the District of Columbia and support the democratic party? The Democrats have held power in the city since forever and it’s a complete shit-hole.
Forgive me if I’m making an incorrect assumption on your party affiliation.
[/quote]
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
It has nothing to do with attending a foreign school somehow voiding your citizenship. It is however pretty good evidence that at some point he renounced US citizenship. It is not that going to school there would have voided anything. It’s what he most probably had to do in order to attend there that did.
Like I said, it is enough at least to demand disclosure.
[/quote]
What, exactly, are you afraid the six year old did?
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
It has nothing to do with attending a foreign school somehow voiding your citizenship. It is however pretty good evidence that at some point he renounced US citizenship. It is not that going to school there would have voided anything. It’s what he most probably had to do in order to attend there that did.
Like I said, it is enough at least to demand disclosure.
What, exactly, are you afraid the six year old did?
[/quote]
I guess it would be a good question to know if his legal guardian were able to renounce it for him. I would assume his dad would have been the one to do it.
[quote]Gambit_Lost wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
It has nothing to do with attending a foreign school somehow voiding your citizenship. It is however pretty good evidence that at some point he renounced US citizenship. It is not that going to school there would have voided anything. It’s what he most probably had to do in order to attend there that did.
Like I said, it is enough at least to demand disclosure.
What, exactly, are you afraid the six year old did?
[/quote]
It’s not what a six year old did, it’s whether or not the rules are followed. a six year old cannot make those decisions, but if citizenship is renounced, it doesn’t allow for you to be considered a native born citizen ever again. This would disallow you from being president.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
DoubleDuce wrote:
It has nothing to do with attending a foreign school somehow voiding your citizenship. It is however pretty good evidence that at some point he renounced US citizenship. It is not that going to school there would have voided anything. It’s what he most probably had to do in order to attend there that did.
Like I said, it is enough at least to demand disclosure.
What, exactly, are you afraid the six year old did?
I guess it would be a good question to know if his legal guardian were able to renounce it for him. I would assume his dad would have been the one to do it.[/quote]
You think a non-citizen can “renounce” the citizenship of an American child?
[quote]tom63 wrote:
Gambit_Lost wrote:
What, exactly, are you afraid the six year old did?
It’s not what a six year old did, it’s whether or not the rules are followed. a six year old cannot make those decisions, but if citizenship is renounced, it doesn’t allow for you to be considered a native born citizen ever again. This would disallow you from being president.
[/quote]
Why in the hell do you think someone would renounce their child’s American citizenship in favor of Indonesian? For some school? Are you serious?
[quote]Jab1 wrote:
That system in Canada is pretty stupid. But what I find more stupid, and in fact if I were the sort of person to get offended this would offend me, is your selfishness.
[/quote]
So he is selfish.
What are you for supporting a program that can only be upheld by a system of servitude?
And you might want a close look at the history of servitude before you deny that it is a system of servitude.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
As you are assumingly atheist (not crazy by your logic), justify human rights without a higher power. If you believe that a human being is born with certain rights that should be honored regardless of situation (life liberty and such) then the only justification is a higher power. You cannot scientifically derive human rights.
I think it?s crazy not to believe in human rights, therefore it is crazy to be an atheist.[/quote]
Do you know what, I’m going to ignore everything else.
I had heard about you from friends, from people on other message boards, but having never met one I always thought that you were exaggerated, made up. But apparently you do exist, and try as I might, I cannot find even a hint of irony in your post.
Are you actually suggesting that the only reason people have a right to a good life is the fact that you believe in some higher power that will punish people for doing bad things? Am I misinterpreting? If I’m not, then you are a truly awful human being and I can quite easily say that I am far more moral than you are. I’m genuinely flabbergasted. I’ve rarely seen such a complete and utter break down of logic. I’m embarrassed to even be communicating with you.
Without a higher power, life is more precious, we need to be good to each other because this is it, it’s all we get. Lets make it the best life we can.
EDIT: apologies for de-railing the thread, I’m out of here.