Are Men Obsolete?

[debraD]

Maximus, I was being a bit facetious in that post and I do know what you mean. It’s not a male thing either. I too enjoy labour and I certainly can relate to watching my dad work and fix things. I also watched my mom similarly.

I worked in a plant for a few years in my late teens picking orders that required maneuvering and stacking large bags that outweighed me by 50 lbs at the time and I really loved that work. I had to fight to get that job, and it was out of necessity and desire for the salary that paid almost double what the regular female ‘factory helper’ would earn but I ended up really loving the work. And I can honestly say, I performed better than many of my male counterparts, but not all. Performance wise I was probably average.

I suppose I’m more mocking the topic because it does strike me as a bit ridiculous. Asking if men are obsolete is like asking if oak trees are obsolete. Can something like that really be obsolete? I mean, who really gives a fuck if in the end women have men around because they like to fuck them as opposed to needing them to do barn work.

[tom63]

[quote]forlife wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:
No one is saying women shouldn’t be self reliant, and you know that.

I was responding to Tom’s comment that self-reliance is a reflection of manliness. I disagree. Self-reliance is an admirable quality in both men and women, and has nothing to do with a person’s gender. Historically, societies have forced women into reliant roles, but fortunately that trend is reversing.

My mom mows the lawn and does all the house repair work, and she enjoys doing it. I stayed at home for two years to take care of my children while my wife worked as a physical therapist, and for that phase of my life I loved it.

Bottom line: People should choose their professions based on their particular interests and aptitudes, rather than on what society expects of them.[/quote]

Maybe I was not clear, but both sexes should be as self reliant as possible. it seems to me that more men seem to have this interest than women in traditionally male jobs. I do know many women who sew, cook, can and do other traditional female jobs.

There is nothing wrong with men knowing these things, but in a normal family with mom, dad, and kids, the guys will split the wood, while the gals will sew and can. The men will throw the hay bales, while the gals might cook. this is due to differences in strength and size of course.

Now e might not “need” all these things, but the basics should be learned by all. More likely than not, guys who seem to care and that is not all seem to be in greater number than gals.

For all the talk of equality in the sexes, I see less of the i can do it now from women than maybe 20 years ago. And I think this is due to interest levels in various activities.

Let’s face it who wants to bet that you going to run into a guy who knows how to change a tire easier than a gal? so as a man I’m not going to wait for some helpful lady to come buy. I’ll be waiting a lot longer than a gal in the same situation.

[tom63]

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
debraD wrote:
tom63 wrote:
debraD wrote:
tom63 wrote:
…

…just that men should know these things.

Why?

Why not? It’s called being self reliant. Women should know these things also, but these have been traditionally male jobs. I know if there’s a flat tire on my Pilot, my wife isn’t going to run out and fix it, but the shoe on the other foot, she’s going to ask me.

Like it or nor there are differences between sexes. Males are stronger. Weak males are stronger than most strong women. My son helps me haul crap out of the garage and the gals clean up before a picnic. My 15 year old son could protect the family better than his step mom or sisters.

He could change a tire quicker and easier due to physical strength. and believe it or not, he’s the best at math and science out of the lot. Now my daughter can shoot. she knows gun safety, but has no interest in working out. She hunts, but has no interest in shooting a pistol. My step daughter could care less about lifting, hunting, shooting, car care, self defense. And that’s okay, we’ll get her triple a.

But guys should not follow this path, if you have to ask maybe those folks shouldn’t post on a sight called testosterone.

You never really answered the question. I can make a damn fine fucking quilt but I’m not going to bother because I can pay someone else to do it for me. It has nothing to do with being female or male.

It is a piss poor use of resources to have every person practice a shitload of broad, out of date skills instead of specializing and honing useful relevant ones.

Our success in recent years of industrialization is precisely because of this. It’s very simple. I spend all of my efforts being very good at one thing and I pay someone else who is very good at another to complete the task for me.

I have no need for a strong man because I don’t have a driveway full of wood that needs to be split. But, if I did I would just hire one. Not because I can’t do it myself (I can) but who the fuck wants to do all that shit work.

I mean, I suppose men are better suited to do hard, physical labour but you make that sound as if it’s a positive. Who wants to do back breaking labour for pennies and hour?

Some of us like labor, I do believe that this is why I love lifting weights. I am all for lifting heavy wheel barrels of dirt, concrete, wood, whatever. There is something inherently pleasurable about putting in a hard days work to see a finished product that I myself did. Maybe it is a sign of my own skill or ability, but I grew up doing this shit. Installing this, or fixing that, or helping a friend who is doing a project.

I might sound nutty, but I think there is something internally strengthening when doing work like this. Growing up I watched my dad fix almost anything, and show me and teach me while he did it. I admired him a great deal because he seemed so capable, and shared the wisdom with me. You gain toughness, which life will most certainly demand. [/quote]

Robert Heinlein was quoted as saying, specialization is for insects. I’m a chiropractor. I have 8years of education and continuing education following graduation. I still can cook, sight in a rifle, kick ass if necessary, do basic home maintenance. I can drive a tractor, bring in hay. Know when to bale hay. and I still earn a living at my office. We’re not chimps.

I can do basic first aid, know some basic car maintenance. This is not rocket science. Turn off TMZ and live a little.

[tom63]

[quote]debraD wrote:
tom63 wrote:
debraD wrote:
tom63 wrote:
…

…just that men should know these things.

Why?

Why not? It’s called being self reliant. Women should know these things also, but these have been traditionally male jobs. I know if there’s a flat tire on my Pilot, my wife isn’t going to run out and fix it, but the shoe on the other foot, she’s going to ask me.

Like it or nor there are differences between sexes. Males are stronger. Weak males are stronger than most strong women. My son helps me haul crap out of the garage and the gals clean up before a picnic. My 15 year old son could protect the family better than his step mom or sisters.

He could change a tire quicker and easier due to physical strength. and believe it or not, he’s the best at math and science out of the lot. Now my daughter can shoot. she knows gun safety, but has no interest in working out. She hunts, but has no interest in shooting a pistol. My step daughter could care less about lifting, hunting, shooting, car care, self defense. And that’s okay, we’ll get her triple a.

But guys should not follow this path, if you have to ask maybe those folks shouldn’t post on a sight called testosterone.

You never really answered the question. I can make a damn fine fucking quilt but I’m not going to bother because I can pay someone else to do it for me. It has nothing to do with being female or male.

It is a piss poor use of resources to have every person practice a shitload of broad, out of date skills instead of specializing and honing useful relevant ones.

Our success in recent years of industrialization is precisely because of this. It’s very simple. I spend all of my efforts being very good at one thing and I pay someone else who is very good at another to complete the task for me.

I have no need for a strong man because I don’t have a driveway full of wood that needs to be split. But, if I did I would just hire one. Not because I can’t do it myself (I can) but who the fuck wants to do all that shit work.

I mean, I suppose men are better suited to do hard, physical labour but you make that sound as if it’s a positive. Who wants to do back breaking labour for pennies and hour?[/quote]

Se some of the other responses. People are making a serious error in assuming things will always be as easy as I’ll just hire someone. Let’s say there is a little natural disaster and a tree falls down in or on your property. Emergency services are overrun. You want that tree moved now.

Try finding someone in a pinch. Knowing how to operate a chain saw might come in handy then when you get someone now. Knowing how to do stuff is never a negative.

And it’s plain silly to me to throw all your eggs in one basket and think that’s just fine. Again, college and professional school graduate who can take care of himself. It’s not that hard to learn how to be more and more self reliant.

But maybe you’re proving our point, women just seem less interested in that.

[debraD]

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Robert Heinlein was quoted as saying, specialization is for insects. I’m a chiropractor. I have 8years of education and continuing education following graduation. I still can cook, sight in a rifle, kick ass if necessary, do basic home maintenance. I can drive a tractor, bring in hay. Know when to bale hay. and I still earn a living at my office. We’re not chimps.

I can do basic first aid, know some basic car maintenance. This is not rocket science. Turn off TMZ and live a little.[/quote]

And I too can do all those things. (with the exception of baling hay for which I will NEVER have a use for). But that doesn’t mean I need to. And I’m positive I have a long list of things I can do that you can not, nor have any desire too. Hell I can even fly a plane, never mind a tractor. They’re called hobbies and if you think somehow your hobbies are somehow of a better nature than anyone elses or are somehow preparing you for Armageddon I’d say you’re being silly.

I just came back from over a week living in complete wilderness and living off what I can carry on my back and hauling 50lbs of gear 90 kms through the mountains. I know how to be self-reliant. But it is for my own entertainment. I’m not gong to try and convince anyone my desire to do these things is anything more than recreation.

[debraD]

[quote]tom63 wrote:
But maybe you’re proving our point, women just seem less interested in that.[/quote]

Actually you’re quite wrong. I am quite interested in these things. But it is not necessary.

[PRCalDude]

[quote]debraD wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Robert Heinlein was quoted as saying, specialization is for insects. I’m a chiropractor. I have 8years of education and continuing education following graduation. I still can cook, sight in a rifle, kick ass if necessary, do basic home maintenance. I can drive a tractor, bring in hay. Know when to bale hay. and I still earn a living at my office. We’re not chimps.

I can do basic first aid, know some basic car maintenance. This is not rocket science. Turn off TMZ and live a little.

And I too can do all those things. (with the exception of baling hay for which I will NEVER have a use for). But that doesn’t mean I need to. And I’m positive I have a long list of things I can do that you can not, nor have any desire too. Hell I can even fly a plane, never mind a tractor. They’re called hobbies and if you think somehow your hobbies are somehow of a better nature than anyone elses or are somehow preparing you for Armageddon I’d say you’re being silly.

I just came back from over a week living in complete wilderness and living off what I can carry on my back and hauling 50lbs of gear 90 kms through the mountains. I know how to be self-reliant. But it is for my own entertainment. I’m not gong to try and convince anyone my desire to do these things is anything more than recreation.
[/quote]

Debra,

Do you know a lot of other women who are like you, or do you find that you’re spending a lot of time in the company of men with these hobbies? General aviation, for instance, is almost completely dominated by men. There are woman pilots, of course, but very few.

As an aside, aviation is another industry that was almost completely built by men because, (in general), men are much more prone to take the physical risks associated with testing aircraft, which is a highly dangerous occupation.
http://clearinghouse.missouriwestern.edu/manuscripts/365.php

You are a programmer, right? Do you find a lot of women in that profession?

[Makavali]

[quote]debraD wrote:
Makavali wrote:
debraD wrote:
tom63 wrote:
…

…just that men should know these things.

Why?

Quiet you. No talking in the presence of MEN.

Sorry
[/quote]

I forgive you, but only because of the avatar.

[EmilyQ]

[quote]tom63 wrote:

Maybe I was not clear, but both sexes should be as self reliant as possible. it seems to me that more men seem to have this interest than women in traditionally male jobs. I do know many women who sew, cook, can and do other traditional female jobs.

There is nothing wrong with men knowing these things, but in a normal family with mom, dad, and kids, the guys will split the wood, while the gals will sew and can. The men will throw the hay bales, while the gals might cook. this is due to differences in strength and size of course.

Now e might not “need” all these things, but the basics should be learned by all. More likely than not, guys who seem to care and that is not all seem to be in greater number than gals.

For all the talk of equality in the sexes, I see less of the i can do it now from women than maybe 20 years ago. And I think this is due to interest levels in various activities.

Let’s face it who wants to bet that you going to run into a guy who knows how to change a tire easier than a gal? so as a man I’m not going to wait for some helpful lady to come buy. I’ll be waiting a lot longer than a gal in the same situation.[/quote]

Sew and can? LOL. Is it possible that your strong bias for traditional gender roles has caused you to surround yourself with traditional women and their traditional daughters? To be honest, when I read of your women I generally think them somewhat narrow, but maybe they’re great and you just portray them as limited in comparison to yourself and men in general.

I am definitely not a masculine woman and my interests tend not to be mechanical or survivalist. However, I do very much enjoy taxing my body in a variety of ways and there is a lot of overlap in mine and my husband’s interest and skill sets. He likes chopping the wood (I frankly lack the coordination to do it safely, in addition to having limited physical endurance for the task) but if the DVD player needs fucking with I am the one to do it. Although my husband jokes about my relative weakness I cannot imagine him suggesting to anyone that my range of interests or capability is limited by anything short of brute strength.

I don’t think you know what a “normal” family is. As someone upthread has already pointed out, there are many things we, as posters to this website, presumably do that are not typical of the general population. I am in better shape physically than the vast majority of my peers, I am better educated than most of my peers, and my family’s income is above average. You are assuming that you represent “man,” but in fact you do not any more than Debra or I represent “woman.” My superior quantitative skillz and other strengths are not generalizable to the group.

If we’re going to look at the average woman, we need also to look at the average man. He doesn’t read much, he doesn’t chop wood (he is likely to live in an urban or exurban community and has only a small patch of land if any), he doesn’t bale hay, and he doesn’t put out fires. He works in a store or in a factory or, increasingly, in a distribution center. He watches a lot of TV and can probably change a tire or windshield wiper blade (as can I) but would be stumped if his evaporator went out.

[Uncle_Gabby]

[quote]EmilyQ wrote:
tom63 wrote:

Maybe I was not clear, but both sexes should be as self reliant as possible. it seems to me that more men seem to have this interest than women in traditionally male jobs. I do know many women who sew, cook, can and do other traditional female jobs.

There is nothing wrong with men knowing these things, but in a normal family with mom, dad, and kids, the guys will split the wood, while the gals will sew and can. The men will throw the hay bales, while the gals might cook. this is due to differences in strength and size of course.

Now e might not “need” all these things, but the basics should be learned by all. More likely than not, guys who seem to care and that is not all seem to be in greater number than gals.

For all the talk of equality in the sexes, I see less of the i can do it now from women than maybe 20 years ago. And I think this is due to interest levels in various activities.

Let’s face it who wants to bet that you going to run into a guy who knows how to change a tire easier than a gal? so as a man I’m not going to wait for some helpful lady to come buy. I’ll be waiting a lot longer than a gal in the same situation.

Sew and can? LOL. Is it possible that your strong bias for traditional gender roles has caused you to surround yourself with traditional women and their traditional daughters? To be honest, when I read of your women I generally think them somewhat narrow, but maybe they’re great and you just portray them as limited in comparison to yourself and men in general.

I am definitely not a masculine woman and my interests tend not to be mechanical or survivalist. However, I do very much enjoy taxing my body in a variety of ways and there is a lot of overlap in mine and my husband’s interest and skill sets. He likes chopping the wood (I frankly lack the coordination to do it safely, in addition to having limited physical endurance for the task) but if the DVD player needs fucking with I am the one to do it. Although my husband jokes about my relative weakness I cannot imagine him suggesting to anyone that my range of interests or capability is limited by anything short of brute strength.

I don’t think you know what a “normal” family is. As someone upthread has already pointed out, there are many things we, as posters to this website, presumably do that are not typical of the general population. I am in better shape physically than the vast majority of my peers, I am better educated than most of my peers, and my family’s income is above average. You are assuming that you represent “man,” but in fact you do not any more than Debra or I represent “woman.” My superior quantitative skillz and other strengths are not generalizable to the group.

If we’re going to look at the average woman, we need also to look at the average man. He doesn’t read much, he doesn’t chop wood (he is likely to live in an urban or exurban community and has only a small patch of land if any), he doesn’t bale hay, and he doesn’t put out fires. He works in a store or in a factory or, increasingly, in a distribution center. He watches a lot of TV and can probably change a tire or windshield wiper blade (as can I) but would be stumped if his evaporator went out.
[/quote]

I put out fires.

[EmilyQ]

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:

I put out fires.
[/quote]

That’s because you’re exceptional, like tom63.

[Uncle_Gabby]

Teacher always said I was special!

[MaximusB]

Sorry Deb, I totally misread your intentions.

[valiant_knight]

Nonsense from the talking classes. They have talked too much amongst themselves incestuously in an echo chamber, a vacuum, that they are starting to think what they say is important. I bar them from my social circle

History is written by those who write. And, in the same vein, the subject of conversation is influenced by the sheer volume of crap spewed by gossipers who just can’t stop chattering

Of course, our society has been feminized and its strength and health are weakened. I take issue with the above

[valiant_knight]

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
This is most definitely a scenario dependent entirely on upbringing and social conditions. Girls that are coddled as children will grow up to be women who need to be coddled. The same is true for boys. This is why you see so many weak and irresponsible members of my generation…they were brought up that way.

Raise a girl to handle a gun and not be scared of things that go bump in the night and when she is a woman, she will do just that.

As a counter, ever seen a woman who was brought up without having everything done for her try to diagnose a car problem? Unclog a drain? Hook up a DVD player?

Go look at the top 10% of an undergraduate engineering class and there will be just as many, if not more, girls than boys. Trust me…I just graduated with quite a few of them recently.

This is exactly the sort of argument that misogynists use to exert their claims of superiority over women. Women are far more capable than you are giving them credit for in your post.
[/quote]

Now, my daddy oft related to me about his college physics days (he eventually earned a PhD), where, he viewed the few girls in class with competitive spirit and contempt. Eventually, he was astounded to find that one had aced to the top of the class.

But see here now very closely. One girl, of two, in a year full of boys. Reexamine reality; I invite you to think things through.

Yes, there are the standard excuses like bias and intimidation but therein lies another clue: boys tend to be competitive and domineering, girls more cooperative. Moving on, if girls are so very equal then why do they consistently lose to men in these supposed oppression contests, not to mention coming out the loser in the difference in average science and math ability - where, if girls are exactly equal to boys, are the girls oppressing us out of the science and math fields they all secretly covet?

Now, a picture is worth a 1000 words and as I am no writer nor a researcher who has made this my life subject I will leave off at that.

[valiant_knight]

[quote]legendaryblaze wrote:
My baby cousin likes to hit people with her toys. She’s a girl and she’s 3.
I’ve gone shopping with her and the mom and whenever the little girl pointed at a water gun or car in the store, the mom would say “that’s for boys. we’re going to get you dolls, cause you’re a girl”.
I’m sure you’ve heard of tomboys.

And your gun and sword analogy doesn’t make sense.
Did boys in the medieval period pick up sticks and pretend they were guns…back when guns didn’t exist?
It’s social upbringing.
[/quote]
Tomboys have been shown to have been exposed to more testosterone in the womb. So, the end of this theory

[quote]
They see G.I.JOE and transformers and fucking pokemon (animals fighting each other - every kid is a potential Michael Vicks).
And it’s not just what they see, it’s what they’re given.
How many parents do you know that give their sweet little girl water guns and plastic green army men? How many of them give the little girl comic books on wolverine, the hulk and the punisher?

How many boys do you know who are given barbies, little cabage patch kid dolls, and electric bake ovens?

All of this is brought on by social upbringing.[/quote]
Little boys and girls have long been studied in carefully gender neutral and bias free environments. Boys overwhelmingly prefer traditionally masculine activities and toys like trucks where girls love their dolls.

I was raised on and believed in the PC bullshit too but let’s have some inquiry into the facts. Can’t hurt, can it? You just learned some things just now. It’s not like we’re here to become evildoers.

[valiant_knight]

[quote]forlife wrote:
Yes, to be successful and fulfilled in a given career you need both the interest and the aptitude. Unfortunately, a glass ceiling existed for some time which prevented women from entering certain professions, or from rising to a certain level within those professions. This glass ceiling still exists in some cases, but it is less an issue than it was a generation ago. It reflects neither native interest nor aptitude, but is a misogynistic cultural relic that ultimately hurts the profit of the corporation.[/quote]

What also hurts the profits of the corporation is wishful thinking.

Hard science, math and engineering tend to be strongly meritocratic. I don’t know how threatening the general nerdy (sorry guys) science population could be. If they are unpleasant to be around that sure doesn’t seem to bother themselves, lol

[tom63]

[quote]valiant knight wrote:
forlife wrote:
Yes, to be successful and fulfilled in a given career you need both the interest and the aptitude. Unfortunately, a glass ceiling existed for some time which prevented women from entering certain professions, or from rising to a certain level within those professions. This glass ceiling still exists in some cases, but it is less an issue than it was a generation ago. It reflects neither native interest nor aptitude, but is a misogynistic cultural relic that ultimately hurts the profit of the corporation.

What also hurts the profits of the corporation is wishful thinking.

Hard science, math and engineering tend to be strongly meritocratic. I don’t know how threatening the general nerdy (sorry guys) science population could be. If they are unpleasant to be around that sure doesn’t seem to bother themselves, lol[/quote]

All true, my contention is never that women can’t do this, just that more men tend to have more aptitude. i have two very bright kinds, twins, now 15 years old. My son is more interested in math and science. My daughter likes it and does well, but she is leaning towards psychology. They both read a lot and both enjoy action novels, and military stories.

Anyone familiar with the movie, Shooter will know about Stephen Hunter. She grabs the new novel before my son can. She enjoys shooting and does well. she loves PSU football.

But not like my son. He GETS INTO the game. he wants to shoot well, the best. She has a more passive approach and I always try to encourage her, but for him I have to put on the brakes.

Boys are wired differently than gals, no matter what people want to think. I’m married to a high level T kind of gal. She told me recently of a woman having it out on the boss, both screaming, cursing and crying. She was disgusted, saying, " it’s make it so much worse for the rest of us women by pulling crap like that."

[debraD]

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Sorry Deb, I totally misread your intentions.[/quote]

No need to apologize! I was being a tad antagonistic there.

[debraD]

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Boys are wired differently than gals, no matter what people want to think. I’m married to a high level T kind of gal. She told me recently of a woman having it out on the boss, both screaming, cursing and crying. She was disgusted, saying, " it’s make it so much worse for the rest of us women by pulling crap like that."[/quote]

Aside from your own personal biased observation, you have no proof of this assertion. And there does not exist a study that excludes all cultural, societal bias in determining aptitude by gender because the experiment is not possible.

My personal experience and observation is contrary to yours. My spatial reasoning, mechanical aptitude and math skills are better than most men I know, with my father and my boss being the exceptions.

That is in both an academic/university setting and in real life practical applications. There’s a pretty good chance they’re better than yours. It may sound arrogant but that is a necessity if I am to progress among attitudes like yours.

But I am not a tomboy. I am quite feminine in the ‘important’ ways. I had my testosterone checked a couple of years ago due to low sex drive and I had low levels. But I still outperformed most men in the ‘male’ sciences.

Through much introspection, I know why I am this way and it is not due to biology.