Are Men Obsolete?

[debraD]

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
Debra,

Do you know a lot of other women who are like you, or do you find that you’re spending a lot of time in the company of men with these hobbies? General aviation, for instance, is almost completely dominated by men. There are woman pilots, of course, but very few.

As an aside, aviation is another industry that was almost completely built by men because, (in general), men are much more prone to take the physical risks associated with testing aircraft, which is a highly dangerous occupation.
http://clearinghouse.missouriwestern.edu/manuscripts/365.php

You are a programmer, right? Do you find a lot of women in that profession? [/quote]

No I don’t. I do know some and due to my profession, many of the women I encounter are more like me than unlike me. But in the general population, I agree, there are more men that have these interests. But the reason why that is is where we disagree.

I don’t believe for one second there is something in my wiring that makes me different than the woman across the street who is more interested in early childhood development.

I have had some significantly different life experiences from her, but biologically we are more or less the same.

[orion]

[quote]debraD wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Debra,

Do you know a lot of other women who are like you, or do you find that you’re spending a lot of time in the company of men with these hobbies? General aviation, for instance, is almost completely dominated by men. There are woman pilots, of course, but very few.

As an aside, aviation is another industry that was almost completely built by men because, (in general), men are much more prone to take the physical risks associated with testing aircraft, which is a highly dangerous occupation.
http://clearinghouse.missouriwestern.edu/manuscripts/365.php

You are a programmer, right? Do you find a lot of women in that profession?

No I don’t. I do know some and due to my profession, many of the women I encounter are more like me than unlike me. But in the general population, I agree, there are more men that have these interests. But the reason why that is is where we disagree.

I don’t believe for one second there is something in my wiring that makes me different than the woman across the street who is more interested in early childhood development.

I have had some significantly different life experiences from her, but biologically we are more or less the same.[/quote]

It seems to be that the question is not if your wiring differs from that of other women but whether the general wiring of women is different than that of men and that is undoubtedly so.

[debraD]

[quote]orion wrote:
debraD wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Debra,

Do you know a lot of other women who are like you, or do you find that you’re spending a lot of time in the company of men with these hobbies? General aviation, for instance, is almost completely dominated by men. There are woman pilots, of course, but very few.

As an aside, aviation is another industry that was almost completely built by men because, (in general), men are much more prone to take the physical risks associated with testing aircraft, which is a highly dangerous occupation.
http://clearinghouse.missouriwestern.edu/manuscripts/365.php

You are a programmer, right? Do you find a lot of women in that profession?

No I don’t. I do know some and due to my profession, many of the women I encounter are more like me than unlike me. But in the general population, I agree, there are more men that have these interests. But the reason why that is is where we disagree.

I don’t believe for one second there is something in my wiring that makes me different than the woman across the street who is more interested in early childhood development.

I have had some significantly different life experiences from her, but biologically we are more or less the same.

It seems to be that the question is not if your wiring differs from that of other women but whether the general wiring of women is different than that of men and that is undoubtedly so.

[/quote]

I dare you to try and prove that undoubted fact…

Brains aren’t made of wires, gentlemen and as such are not analogous to a hard wired piece of electronics.

[PRCalDude]

[quote]debraD wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Debra,

Do you know a lot of other women who are like you, or do you find that you’re spending a lot of time in the company of men with these hobbies? General aviation, for instance, is almost completely dominated by men. There are woman pilots, of course, but very few.

As an aside, aviation is another industry that was almost completely built by men because, (in general), men are much more prone to take the physical risks associated with testing aircraft, which is a highly dangerous occupation.
http://clearinghouse.missouriwestern.edu/manuscripts/365.php

You are a programmer, right? Do you find a lot of women in that profession?

No I don’t. I do know some and due to my profession, many of the women I encounter are more like me than unlike me. But in the general population, I agree, there are more men that have these interests. But the reason why that is is where we disagree.

I don’t believe for one second there is something in my wiring that makes me different than the woman across the street who is more interested in early childhood development.

I have had some significantly different life experiences from her, but biologically we are more or less the same.[/quote]

My guess would be that you have higher T levels than the average woman and are thus more risk prone and have more of an aptitude for the non-verbal g-loaded activities.

[orion]

[quote]debraD wrote:
orion wrote:
debraD wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Debra,

Do you know a lot of other women who are like you, or do you find that you’re spending a lot of time in the company of men with these hobbies? General aviation, for instance, is almost completely dominated by men. There are woman pilots, of course, but very few.

As an aside, aviation is another industry that was almost completely built by men because, (in general), men are much more prone to take the physical risks associated with testing aircraft, which is a highly dangerous occupation.
http://clearinghouse.missouriwestern.edu/manuscripts/365.php

You are a programmer, right? Do you find a lot of women in that profession?

No I don’t. I do know some and due to my profession, many of the women I encounter are more like me than unlike me. But in the general population, I agree, there are more men that have these interests. But the reason why that is is where we disagree.

I don’t believe for one second there is something in my wiring that makes me different than the woman across the street who is more interested in early childhood development.

I have had some significantly different life experiences from her, but biologically we are more or less the same.

It seems to be that the question is not if your wiring differs from that of other women but whether the general wiring of women is different than that of men and that is undoubtedly so.

I dare you to try and prove that undoubted fact…

Brains aren’t made of wires, gentlemen and as such are not analogous to a hard wired piece of electronics. [/quote]

It is a figure of speech, a metaphor if you will and shame on you for making fun of my poor command of the English language :-(…

j/k.

Anyhow, as you may have noticed men usually like women whereas women usually like men.

Men are more prone to take risks which is actually why their life expectancy is lower than that of women. How could it be any other way their testosterone level is ten times as high.

Interestingly enough that also means that they are the dominant gender, as it is common for mammals. That would be different for Hyenas for example where the females have higher concentrations of testosterone and are dominant.

Mating strategies are different, as is the distribution of intelligence which can both be explained by inherent biological differences between men and women.

Also, male and female emotional intelligence is different, whereas women have am egalitarian approach and apparently can only be assured of the actual occurrence of an event by telling all her friends, partner and mother and I can assure you that men have no such urge.

Plus, they build larger groups that work together through competition and not necessarily through direct cooperation and egalitarian sharing.

[debraD]

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
debraD wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
Debra,

Do you know a lot of other women who are like you, or do you find that you’re spending a lot of time in the company of men with these hobbies? General aviation, for instance, is almost completely dominated by men. There are woman pilots, of course, but very few.

As an aside, aviation is another industry that was almost completely built by men because, (in general), men are much more prone to take the physical risks associated with testing aircraft, which is a highly dangerous occupation.
http://clearinghouse.missouriwestern.edu/manuscripts/365.php

You are a programmer, right? Do you find a lot of women in that profession?

No I don’t. I do know some and due to my profession, many of the women I encounter are more like me than unlike me. But in the general population, I agree, there are more men that have these interests. But the reason why that is is where we disagree.

I don’t believe for one second there is something in my wiring that makes me different than the woman across the street who is more interested in early childhood development.

I have had some significantly different life experiences from her, but biologically we are more or less the same.

My guess would be that you have higher T levels than the average woman and are thus more risk prone and have more of an aptitude for the non-verbal g-loaded activities.
[/quote]

I might be now due to my current weightlifting activities, but I know this was not always the case because I was tested and had low levels of T.

[debraD]

[quote]orion wrote:
It is a figure of speech, a metaphor if you will and shame on you for making fun of my poor command of the English language :-(…

j/k.

Anyhow, as you may have noticed men usually like women whereas women usually like men.

Men are more prone to take risks which is actually why their life expectancy is lower than that of women. How could it be any other way their testosterone level is ten times as high.[/quote]

That might explain bar brawls but it doesn’t explain an aptitude for math. If you met the most of men I work with who are software and hardware engineers with degrees in math, physics and electronics engineering, you would not mistake them for men who have high testosterone or men that take risks. In fact, they are some of the most effeminate and terrified creatures I have ever known.

Interestingly enough that also means that they are the dominant gender, as it is common for mammals. That would be different for Hyenas for example where the females have higher concentrations of testosterone and are dominant.

You can state that as a fact and explain it to me as it were. But that does not make it any more true. It might or it might not be. We are not hyenas and engineering and aviation are not interests that are relevant outside our social sphere.

[quote]
Mating strategies are different, as is the distribution of intelligence which can both be explained by inherent biological differences between men and women.[/quote]

Again, you can choose to explain it that way and assert that it is an inherent biological fact, but that does not make it so.

Also, male and female emotional intelligence is different, whereas women have am egalitarian approach and apparently can only be assured of the actual occurrence of an event by telling all her friends, partner and mother and I can assure you that men have no such urge.

Plus, they build larger groups that work together through competition and not necessarily through direct cooperation and egalitarian sharing.[/quote]

This is your feeling and perception of how things are. This is not a hard, discrete fact. You cannot claim to even know this.

I challenge you to prove that ‘emotional intelligence’ is anything more than fabricated shite to explain some guys theories. But it sounds good.

Look, you guys want to talk about science and facts but you only want to talk about your perception. That is not science, it is not evidence and it is not facts. It is emotionally driven opinion.

[PRCalDude]

That might explain bar brawls but it doesn’t explain an aptitude for math. If you met the most of men I work with who are software and hardware engineers with degrees in math, physics and electronics engineering, you would not mistake them for men who have high testosterone or men that take risks. In fact, they are some of the most effeminate and terrified creatures I have ever known.

Your use of the term “effeminate” offends me as femininity and masculinity are mere social constructs.

I might be now due to my current weightlifting activities, but I know this was not always the case because I was tested and had low levels of T.

A lot of things influence levels of T at any given point in the day, so that test may or may not be indicative of low T.

[quote]I challenge you to prove that ‘emotional intelligence’ is anything more than fabricated shite to explain some guys theories. But it sounds good.
[/quote]

Actually, forlife posted on this earlier in the thread. Women tend to score higher on verbal g-loaded aptitude and lower on non-verbal than men.

I posted a paper on the psychological differences b/w men/women as they relate to risk. Then there are the mean testosterone levels, which are highly different b/w men and women and they affect cognition and certain aptitudes.

We can get into the science, if that’s what you want.

Aside from that, most of us have sisters/mothers, girlfriends and wives and can make generalizations based on their behavior. “Reality exists, we did not create it.”

[orion]

[quote]debraD wrote:
orion wrote:
It is a figure of speech, a metaphor if you will and shame on you for making fun of my poor command of the English language :-(…

j/k.

Anyhow, as you may have noticed men usually like women whereas women usually like men.

Men are more prone to take risks which is actually why their life expectancy is lower than that of women. How could it be any other way their testosterone level is ten times as high.

That might explain bar brawls but it doesn’t explain an aptitude for math. If you met the most of men I work with who are software and hardware engineers with degrees in math, physics and electronics engineering, you would not mistake them for men who have high testosterone or men that take risks. In fact, they are some of the most effeminate and terrified creatures I have ever known.

Interestingly enough that also means that they are the dominant gender, as it is common for mammals. That would be different for Hyenas for example where the females have higher concentrations of testosterone and are dominant.

You can state that as a fact and explain it to me as it were. But that does not make it any more true. It might or it might not be. We are not hyenas and engineering and aviation are not interests that are relevant outside our social sphere.

Mating strategies are different, as is the distribution of intelligence which can both be explained by inherent biological differences between men and women.

Again, you can choose to explain it that way and assert that it is an inherent biological fact, but that does not make it so.

Also, male and female emotional intelligence is different, whereas women have am egalitarian approach and apparently can only be assured of the actual occurrence of an event by telling all her friends, partner and mother and I can assure you that men have no such urge.

Plus, they build larger groups that work together through competition and not necessarily through direct cooperation and egalitarian sharing.

This is your feeling and perception of how things are. This is not a hard, discrete fact. You cannot claim to even know this.

I challenge you to prove that ‘emotional intelligence’ is anything more than fabricated shite to explain some guys theories. But it sounds good.

Look, you guys want to talk about science and facts but you only want to talk about your perception. That is not science, it is not evidence and it is not facts. It is emotionally driven opinion.

[/quote]

Well we know that men and women have different mating strategies.

We also know that male intelligence is not as neatly centered around average intelligence but has larger outliers.

We also know that the gender with the higher testosterone is usually the dominant one as far as mammals are concerned.

So there, observable facts, however you explain them , closely related to gender,

[apbt55]

[quote]jawara wrote:
polo77j wrote:
Honestly, there have always been effeminate men … they’re just being glamorized in the media more than before. Men are not and never will be obsolete … I think that whole notion is preposterous.
I agree their have always been effeminate men, BUT these days any man who is “manly” is a threat. Why is that I could get a sex change but I would have trouble finding a doctor to gives me steriods? You see what I’m getting at?

[/quote]

speaking of which, my doc prescribes testim gel and gh, plus will do newere therapies to help with joint problems other than surgery, if you live in pa and need a good PCP let me know, PM

[apbt55]

Ok so am I effinminate or whatever, I have ttwo daughters, have to watch hannah montanna and listen to taylor swift, I can also dance and sing, and am considered a suject matter expert by CBER and the FDA for bioanalytical method strategies.

I also train in muay thai and mma, stand 6’ 1" weigh 240, have raised and bred pits most of my life, would probably be called ahomophobe because I cannot stand this whole PC bull shit and gay agenda. I think men should be men, should be respectful of women, be able to fight out differences.

I think in the new society as it is called, it shouldn’t just be the strong it should be the strong/intelligent.

two dominant gene traits not one, the rest should be pushed aside.

[tom63]

[quote]debraD wrote:
tom63 wrote:
Boys are wired differently than gals, no matter what people want to think. I’m married to a high level T kind of gal. She told me recently of a woman having it out on the boss, both screaming, cursing and crying. She was disgusted, saying, " it’s make it so much worse for the rest of us women by pulling crap like that."

Aside from your own personal biased observation, you have no proof of this assertion. And there does not exist a study that excludes all cultural, societal bias in determining aptitude by gender because the experiment is not possible.

My personal experience and observation is contrary to yours. My spatial reasoning, mechanical aptitude and math skills are better than most men I know, with my father and my boss being the exceptions.

That is in both an academic/university setting and in real life practical applications. There’s a pretty good chance they’re better than yours. It may sound arrogant but that is a necessity if I am to progress among attitudes like yours.

But I am not a tomboy. I am quite feminine in the ‘important’ ways. I had my testosterone checked a couple of years ago due to low sex drive and I had low levels. But I still outperformed most men in the ‘male’ sciences.

Through much introspection, I know why I am this way and it is not due to biology.

[/quote]
I’m actually pretty good with all that stuff, four years of college, physics, calculus, etc. Four years of chiropractic college. I have a great sense of direction in driving and getting somewhere. Take me someplace once, I know the way.

My wife is very good at this, my ex wife was not. My wife’s sister is horrible. she has to turn the map to get which direction to go in. but I’ll beat my wife in which way do we go and how to get around some obstacle on an unfamiliar road.

Individuals are different than groups of course, and many women will beat many men. But men on average will score better as a group in certain things compared to women.

Biology make us what we are. experience works with our biology. Great experience will help anyone do any activity better, but someone with natural aptitude will win with the same experience. I’ve outperformed most people in my academic career, but i was a good student. I did better than most of both sexes.

We’re merely saying at the top end, you will find more guys in certain fields due to both interest and biology.

[phaethon]

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
If PRC’s premise was true, we wouldn’t be seeing the trend of girls performing better in math and science classes than boys in recent years
[/quote]

Girls aren’t performing better now; it is only that boys are performing worse.

Show me some evidence that girls are performing at a higher level than boys were 30 years ago.

The schooling system now favors girls. Boys need discipline to do well; yet teachers hands are tied. As such boys have been doing worse.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
and we wouldn’t be seeing an ever increasing number of young women out performing their male counterparts in science and engineering fields. Like I said, this is happening. Three of the top 5 students in my graduating class in high school were women
[/quote]

Hehe. High school is high school. As an engineer I can tell you at university male engineers dominate. And in the workplace male engineers dominate.

The top 1% in every technical field is mainly men.

This is easily explained by female intelligence being more normally distributed. There are far more men with an IQ > 150 than there are women.

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
When it comes to technical fields, I have no doubt that an empowered woman is just as capable as a man…which is the exact opposite of PRC’s assertion.
[/quote]

And which technical field are you involved with? And does it hold true in your field. Because it doesn’t in either that I have been involved in (Comp & Elec eng).

[phaethon]

[quote]apbt55 wrote:
Ok so am I effinminate or whatever, I have ttwo daughters, have to watch hannah montanna and listen to taylor swift, I can also dance and sing, and am considered a suject matter expert by CBER and the FDA for bioanalytical method strategies.
[/quote]

Nothing unmanly about Taylor Swift. She is bloody terrific. You should listen to ‘The Best Day’ by her.

[Makavali]

[quote]phaethon wrote:
apbt55 wrote:
Ok so am I effinminate or whatever, I have ttwo daughters, have to watch hannah montanna and listen to taylor swift, I can also dance and sing, and am considered a suject matter expert by CBER and the FDA for bioanalytical method strategies.

Nothing unmanly about Taylor Swift. She is bloody terrific. You should listen to ‘The Best Day’ by her.[/quote]

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