Are Men Obsolete?

[quote]forlife wrote:

Women shouldn’t be self-reliant and can’t hunt deer, build fires, or change a tire? My mom eats my step dad for lunch on “self-reliance”.[/quote]

No one is saying women shouldn’t be self reliant, and you know that. You just made that shit up in a pathetic attempt to claim the moral high ground. If you had been paying the least bit of attention since you’ve been posting here, you would have realized that the male posters on this site are the kind who find self reliant women to be sexy.

Here is the entire conversation in a nut shell. Try to follow.

Someone asked, are men obsolete? Women can do any job a man can, or at least, you can find an example of a woman who is suceeding at every job that was once considered to be for men only. My argument was that women can do a lot of these manual labor jobs because technology has reached the point that men’s natural advantage in strength/testosterone is no longer needed. You don’t need the strong back of John Henry to dig a tunnel when you’ve got dynamite and a bulldozer, both of which a woman of average strength can use just as easily as a man. However, most of these jobs are still done by men because women don’t want them. They’re tiring and dirty.

And, this was PRCal’s point, even though women are scoring as high as men in Math and Science, most still don’t choose to pursue degrees and careers in engineering and other hard sciences. No one is blocking their way, they just aren’t interested. My sister always got straight A’s in Math and Science, and she chose to get a very useful degree in Art History. She got those A’s because they were expected of her, not because she had any affinity for the subjects. And this is after several decades of concerted efforts in our culture to get girls interested in math and science.

Oh, and my Father and uncles would have been happy to teach my sister how to change her own oil or take her fishing or hunting, but she wasn’t the least bit interested.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:I see you believe in the blank slate. Just because technology has changed, doesn’t mean the natural of the human animal has changed. You ignore reality at your own peril.

…honestly, you’re not only selling women short on their capabilities, but you seem to have a very limited view of manhood aswell. Who you are, and what you can do, is not defined by gender[roles]. I urge you to grow up…
[/quote]

Read my posts on this thread and quote me where I have sold women short on their capabilities. Do it.

[quote]forlife wrote:
tom63 wrote:
I don’t totally define my self by caveman standards, but some of those have not changed. I defend the home. I kill my own food in season, I can gut a deer, chop it up and cook it. I can start a fire, do small home repairs. All men should know how to do these things.

Reading Neil Strauss’ book, I think it’s called In Case of Emergency. He realized at a certain age he could not do anything useful. Yes he was a writer, but he could not provide for himself in a case the power is out way.

You might not need these skills everyday, but learning them changes you for the better. you’re more confident, you know you are self reliant.

You realize you have become a grown up and a man. you know, sometimes triple a might not be able to come and jump your vehicle, or change a tire. Maybe you will have to defend yourself or your family.

Being self reliant is not caveman, it’s manly, There is a difference, But I would not expect most here to know the difference.

Women shouldn’t be self-reliant and can’t hunt deer, build fires, or change a tire? My mom eats my step dad for lunch on “self-reliance”.[/quote]

Yes they should but few will now a days. We all were more self reliant back in the day. I never said this was only for men, just that men should know these things.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
tom63 wrote:
forlife wrote:
Or maybe society has evolved to the point where a person’s worth isn’t determined by the size of his (or her) club.

Keep believing that. The club is still needed, maybe not often but don’t think it’s need has vanished. And when you need that club, you’ll never need anything more than that club.

…the size of the club you think you need is inversely proportional to the size of your penis…

[/quote]

No, but keep believing that. It has nothing to do with my penis, but more my wallet. you see the coolest biggest guns are the most expensive. Though I do have a 50 caliber sniper rifle, but an average priced gun for that caliber.

Since you are girl, you believe silly things like you just said, but that’s okay.

[quote]tom63 wrote:

…just that men should know these things.[/quote]

Why?

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
forlife wrote:

Women shouldn’t be self-reliant and can’t hunt deer, build fires, or change a tire? My mom eats my step dad for lunch on “self-reliance”.

No one is saying women shouldn’t be self reliant, and you know that. You just made that shit up in a pathetic attempt to claim the moral high ground. If you had been paying the least bit of attention since you’ve been posting here, you would have realized that the male posters on this site are the kind who find self reliant women to be sexy.

Here is the entire conversation in a nut shell. Try to follow.

Someone asked, are men obsolete? Women can do any job a man can, or at least, you can find an example of a woman who is suceeding at every job that was once considered to be for men only. My argument was that women can do a lot of these manual labor jobs because technology has reached the point that men’s natural advantage in strength/testosterone is no longer needed. You don’t need the strong back of John Henry to dig a tunnel when you’ve got dynamite and a bulldozer, both of which a woman of average strength can use just as easily as a man. However, most of these jobs are still done by men because women don’t want them. They’re tiring and dirty.

And, this was PRCal’s point, even though women are scoring as high as men in Math and Science, most still don’t choose to pursue degrees and careers in engineering and other hard sciences. No one is blocking their way, they just aren’t interested. My sister always got straight A’s in Math and Science, and she chose to get a very useful degree in Art History. She got those A’s because they were expected of her, not because she had any affinity for the subjects. And this is after several decades of concerted efforts in our culture to get girls interested in math and science.

Oh, and my Father and uncles would have been happy to teach my sister how to change her own oil or take her fishing or hunting, but she wasn’t the least bit interested.
[/quote]

This is why I was more interested in how the libs on this thread came to their conclusions. Sure, someone has a mom here or a sister there who bucks the trend, but why should we ignore the other 90% of women and how they act? Do people seriously live their lives ignoring what they find to be true most of the time just to avoid thoughtcrime? I guess so.

And as forlife said, women tend to score lower in the area of intelligence that relates to math and science. For libs who don’t understand a gaussian distribution, this means that women, on average, tend to be less apt at math and science. More importantly, they tend not to be interested in such things, on average. Taking a walk through any undergraduate engineering class ought to confirm that with one’s own lying eyes.

[quote]debraD wrote:
tom63 wrote:

…just that men should know these things.

Why?
[/quote]

Quiet you. No talking in the presence of MEN.

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:I see you believe in the blank slate. Just because technology has changed, doesn’t mean the natural of the human animal has changed. You ignore reality at your own peril.

…honestly, you’re not only selling women short on their capabilities, but you seem to have a very limited view of manhood aswell. Who you are, and what you can do, is not defined by gender[roles]. I urge you to grow up…

Read my posts on this thread and quote me where I have sold women short on their capabilities. Do it.[/quote]

08-24-2009, 03:55 AM

If women had the same aptitude for innovation as men

but if women were great inventors

I have said and will continue to say that I don’t think that on the whole women and men will ever be equal in this regard.

but some gender roles are pretty much universal,

08-24-2009, 02:26 AM

from the lack of women in the top ranks of physicists, to their inability to read a map are the fault of the patriarchy, not of biology. So yes, sometimes common sense needs to be injected into the conversation.

08-23-2009, 07:59 PM

I think that if women on the whole had a natural apptitude for innovation

…ah, finally some sense!

…and rightly so…

[quote]debraD wrote:
tom63 wrote:

…just that men should know these things.

Why?
[/quote]

Why not? It’s called being self reliant. Women should know these things also, but these have been traditionally male jobs. I know if there’s a flat tire on my Pilot, my wife isn’t going to run out and fix it, but the shoe on the other foot, she’s going to ask me.

Like it or nor there are differences between sexes. Males are stronger. Weak males are stronger than most strong women. My son helps me haul crap out of the garage and the gals clean up before a picnic. My 15 year old son could protect the family better than his step mom or sisters.

He could change a tire quicker and easier due to physical strength. and believe it or not, he’s the best at math and science out of the lot. Now my daughter can shoot. she knows gun safety, but has no interest in working out. She hunts, but has no interest in shooting a pistol. My step daughter could care less about lifting, hunting, shooting, car care, self defense. And that’s okay, we’ll get her triple a.

But guys should not follow this path, if you have to ask maybe those folks shouldn’t post on a sight called testosterone.

[quote]ephrem wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:
ephrem wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:I see you believe in the blank slate. Just because technology has changed, doesn’t mean the natural of the human animal has changed. You ignore reality at your own peril.

…honestly, you’re not only selling women short on their capabilities, but you seem to have a very limited view of manhood aswell. Who you are, and what you can do, is not defined by gender[roles]. I urge you to grow up…

Read my posts on this thread and quote me where I have sold women short on their capabilities. Do it.

08-24-2009, 03:55 AM

If women had the same aptitude for innovation as men

but if women were great inventors

I have said and will continue to say that I don’t think that on the whole women and men will ever be equal in this regard.
[/quote]

Did a woman invent the lever? The block and tackle? The Bow? The wheel? The compass? The steam engine? The mechanical harvester? The internal combustion engine? No, and I’m sorry if that fact hurts women’s feelings but blame reality, not me. If they women were great innovators that trait would have been encouraged from the dawn of time for the survival of the family, tribe and citystate. That’s common fucking sense. But I’m just repeating myself and you’re still not listening.

Is this basic observation of reality that offensive to you women’s studies majors? [b]REALLY?[/b] Find one culture where the men stayed home to raise the children while the women went hunting, and waged war. And if by some miracle (or more likely feminist distortion of reality) you do find a culture in which men and women’s roles were reversed I’ll point out the thousands of others where they fell along the familiar divide.

Well, how many women physicists are there? I watch Nova and the Discovery channel all the time and the ratio of male to female scientists seems to skew pretty heavily male. And that’s on television where I’m sure the producers are making a concerted effort to represent diversity.

What the fuck do you mean, finally jackass? I said over and over again that it would be foolish to exclude a woman from a job that she is qualified from solely on the basis of her gender. But you throw in one little quote at the end as if to say “he almost gets it”. That is so transparent and weak dude. Try harder next time.

That’s the only thing you quoted me on that I don’t agree with. The problem with discrimination lawsuits is the burden of proof is often on the employer, and even if they win a suit, it still costs them big time. So the effect is, people are hired to fill arbitrary quotas, and hiring enough people of a certain race/gender so that you don’t get sued becomes more important than hiring the best candidates. I think affirmative action was necessary 40 years ago to break the glass ceiling. But the ceiling’s been broken. Women and minorites have proven their worth and any company that chose to go back to discriminatory hiring practices would be hamstringing themselves in the market by turning away good talent. Of course what I just said was not PC and I guess I just hurt your feelings some more.

On the whole that was a really pathetic effort Ephrem. The fact that you had to take quotes out of context (not even whole sentences, but fragments) to try to prove that I’m the misogynist boogeyman was really lame. Nothing I’ve said would offend anyone who bothered to read my posts. What put the sand in your vagina was the fact that I didn’t fall in with the PC dogma that any woman can do anything that any man can do, and do it better.

[quote]Uncle Gabby wrote:
No one is saying women shouldn’t be self reliant, and you know that.
[/quote]

I was responding to Tom’s comment that self-reliance is a reflection of manliness. I disagree. Self-reliance is an admirable quality in both men and women, and has nothing to do with a person’s gender. Historically, societies have forced women into reliant roles, but fortunately that trend is reversing.

My mom mows the lawn and does all the house repair work, and she enjoys doing it. I stayed at home for two years to take care of my children while my wife worked as a physical therapist, and for that phase of my life I loved it.

Bottom line: People should choose their professions based on their particular interests and aptitudes, rather than on what society expects of them.

[quote]forlife wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:
No one is saying women shouldn’t be self reliant, and you know that.

I was responding to Tom’s comment that self-reliance is a reflection of manliness. I disagree. Self-reliance is an admirable quality in both men and women, and has nothing to do with a person’s gender. Historically, societies have forced women into reliant roles, but fortunately that trend is reversing.

My mom mows the lawn and does all the house repair work, and she enjoys doing it. [/quote]

Forlife, you don’t have a typical mom. Surely, you are aware of this. 90% of the other moms prefer dad to mow the lawn, do the house repairs and other things that involve getting covered head-to-toe in dirt, gasoline smell, and grass clippings.

I think my mom is more typical of current generation women than of women from earlier eras. She is a fantastic cook, a skilled seamstress, and a great gardener, but she happens to enjoy those other things as well. She is a child of the 60s/70s women’s liberation movement, and I see it as a good thing.

Not that all women should be “renaissance women”, but again the point is that people should be whoever they want to be, without artificial constraints from society.

[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
forlife wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:
No one is saying women shouldn’t be self reliant, and you know that.

I was responding to Tom’s comment that self-reliance is a reflection of manliness. I disagree. Self-reliance is an admirable quality in both men and women, and has nothing to do with a person’s gender. Historically, societies have forced women into reliant roles, but fortunately that trend is reversing.

My mom mows the lawn and does all the house repair work, and she enjoys doing it.

Forlife, you don’t have a typical mom. Surely, you are aware of this. 90% of the other moms prefer dad to mow the lawn, do the house repairs and other things that involve getting covered head-to-toe in dirt, gasoline smell, and grass clippings. [/quote]

Wait…why is it forlife cannot reference a person you believe is an outlier to make a point but you can reference a list of male inventors that represent an extremely minute sample of the male population?

Surely you don’t believe that that list has any reflection of the general population of men. Or maybe you do, if so I’ll tell you you are wrong.

Most men AND women are average, barely adequate, unimpressive and will never invent, create, innovate or engineer anything of value in their lives other than their offspring so to act as if your outliers are more relevant than forlife’s is a bit inconsistent, don’t you think?

Personally I’m not going to pat myself on the back for sharing genitalia with others who did great things as if it’s a credit to me but feel free…Personally I;m not a fan of riding coattails.

[quote]Makavali wrote:
debraD wrote:
tom63 wrote:

…just that men should know these things.

Why?

Quiet you. No talking in the presence of MEN.[/quote]

Sorry :frowning:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
debraD wrote:
tom63 wrote:

…just that men should know these things.

Why?

Why not? It’s called being self reliant. Women should know these things also, but these have been traditionally male jobs. I know if there’s a flat tire on my Pilot, my wife isn’t going to run out and fix it, but the shoe on the other foot, she’s going to ask me.

Like it or nor there are differences between sexes. Males are stronger. Weak males are stronger than most strong women. My son helps me haul crap out of the garage and the gals clean up before a picnic. My 15 year old son could protect the family better than his step mom or sisters.

He could change a tire quicker and easier due to physical strength. and believe it or not, he’s the best at math and science out of the lot. Now my daughter can shoot. she knows gun safety, but has no interest in working out. She hunts, but has no interest in shooting a pistol. My step daughter could care less about lifting, hunting, shooting, car care, self defense. And that’s okay, we’ll get her triple a.

But guys should not follow this path, if you have to ask maybe those folks shouldn’t post on a sight called testosterone.[/quote]

You never really answered the question. I can make a damn fine fucking quilt but I’m not going to bother because I can pay someone else to do it for me. It has nothing to do with being female or male.

It is a piss poor use of resources to have every person practice a shitload of broad, out of date skills instead of specializing and honing useful relevant ones.

Our success in recent years of industrialization is precisely because of this. It’s very simple. I spend all of my efforts being very good at one thing and I pay someone else who is very good at another to complete the task for me.

I have no need for a strong man because I don’t have a driveway full of wood that needs to be split. But, if I did I would just hire one. Not because I can’t do it myself (I can) but who the fuck wants to do all that shit work.

I mean, I suppose men are better suited to do hard, physical labour but you make that sound as if it’s a positive. Who wants to do back breaking labour for pennies and hour?

Gays, women and children, pose no threat to the elites around the world. Fat butterball pansy boys girly men, pose no threat to them either. Lean and hungry warriors, whom you have to kill to defeat, DO however pose a threat.

This is why males are taught today to act like homosexuals – promiscuous, no children ever, lots of short and meaningless affairs built around lots of sex, drug and alcohol-induced mindlessness.

This is why women are taught to like touchy-feely men or men who have no values. The men become like this, jerks or ass kissers, in order to get laid.

In the future, there’ll be no more men or women, in fact. Just …‘creatures’. You can see a preview at just about any mall or rock concert.

[quote]debraD wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
forlife wrote:
Uncle Gabby wrote:
No one is saying women shouldn’t be self reliant, and you know that.

I was responding to Tom’s comment that self-reliance is a reflection of manliness. I disagree. Self-reliance is an admirable quality in both men and women, and has nothing to do with a person’s gender. Historically, societies have forced women into reliant roles, but fortunately that trend is reversing.

My mom mows the lawn and does all the house repair work, and she enjoys doing it.

Forlife, you don’t have a typical mom. Surely, you are aware of this. 90% of the other moms prefer dad to mow the lawn, do the house repairs and other things that involve getting covered head-to-toe in dirt, gasoline smell, and grass clippings.

Wait…why is it forlife cannot reference a person you believe is an outlier to make a point but you can reference a list of male inventors that represent an extremely minute sample of the male population?
[/quote]

I don’t think you realize what an outlier is. An outlier is a data point out on the tails away from the statistical mean. We’re trying to talk about “in general” here. In general men do x and women do y. Not a difficult concept. But the outliers amongst men invent things because, in general, men have more of an aptitude and a lot more interest in the the things that relate to inventing stuff. Women, in general, do not, and therefore there are far, far fewer outliers on the side of the curve that produces all of the inventors. The list of people who have invented things throughout history should confirm this to you. It’s not at all hard.

See above

[quote]
Personally I’m not going to pat myself on the back for sharing genitalia with others who did great things as if it’s a credit to me but feel free…Personally I;m not a fan of riding coattails.[/quote]

You’re imagining this. I am patting myself on the back for the ability to acknowledge reality, though - it seems to be an increasingly vanishing trait.

No one, which is why men invented the wood splitter, the trench digger, the backhoe, the combine, etc.

[quote]debraD wrote:
tom63 wrote:
debraD wrote:
tom63 wrote:

…just that men should know these things.

Why?

Why not? It’s called being self reliant. Women should know these things also, but these have been traditionally male jobs. I know if there’s a flat tire on my Pilot, my wife isn’t going to run out and fix it, but the shoe on the other foot, she’s going to ask me.

Like it or nor there are differences between sexes. Males are stronger. Weak males are stronger than most strong women. My son helps me haul crap out of the garage and the gals clean up before a picnic. My 15 year old son could protect the family better than his step mom or sisters.

He could change a tire quicker and easier due to physical strength. and believe it or not, he’s the best at math and science out of the lot. Now my daughter can shoot. she knows gun safety, but has no interest in working out. She hunts, but has no interest in shooting a pistol. My step daughter could care less about lifting, hunting, shooting, car care, self defense. And that’s okay, we’ll get her triple a.

But guys should not follow this path, if you have to ask maybe those folks shouldn’t post on a sight called testosterone.

You never really answered the question. I can make a damn fine fucking quilt but I’m not going to bother because I can pay someone else to do it for me. It has nothing to do with being female or male.

It is a piss poor use of resources to have every person practice a shitload of broad, out of date skills instead of specializing and honing useful relevant ones.

Our success in recent years of industrialization is precisely because of this. It’s very simple. I spend all of my efforts being very good at one thing and I pay someone else who is very good at another to complete the task for me.

I have no need for a strong man because I don’t have a driveway full of wood that needs to be split. But, if I did I would just hire one. Not because I can’t do it myself (I can) but who the fuck wants to do all that shit work.

I mean, I suppose men are better suited to do hard, physical labour but you make that sound as if it’s a positive. Who wants to do back breaking labour for pennies and hour?[/quote]

Some of us like labor, I do believe that this is why I love lifting weights. I am all for lifting heavy wheel barrels of dirt, concrete, wood, whatever. There is something inherently pleasurable about putting in a hard days work to see a finished product that I myself did. Maybe it is a sign of my own skill or ability, but I grew up doing this shit. Installing this, or fixing that, or helping a friend who is doing a project.

I might sound nutty, but I think there is something internally strengthening when doing work like this. Growing up I watched my dad fix almost anything, and show me and teach me while he did it. I admired him a great deal because he seemed so capable, and shared the wisdom with me. You gain toughness, which life will most certainly demand.