[quote]on edge wrote:
If only your sister had never been told or treated as if she was smart. [/quote]
No one smarter than a married woman in a kitchen.
[quote]Bambi wrote:
I have nothing to add to the (intelligent) debate except the spelling mistake of the title made me rage inside[/quote]
Yes, sometimes I type things wrong due to dyslexia and hit “send” before proof reading because it’s not that big of a deal whether or not you use awesome grammar on the internet. It happens to the best of us. It also doesn’t mean that someone doesn’t realize what the proper spelling is.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:<<< As for those who think I think I’m smart, why do you assume that? >>>[/quote]You can address me by name, I won’t bite.
[/quote]
^^^Oh look, I did say “those who think I think I’m smart”. Weird.
Anyway, the reason I didn’t address you by name is because there’s more than one.
[quote]jasmincar wrote:
The concept of special does not exist, along with the concept of worth. You are asking if something has or not a propriety that doesnt exist.[/quote]
I agree with this.
I’d like to point out that I never said humans were “special”. Here was my wording:
"as to why humans are unique and thus deserve special, superior rights as being special above other animals. "
I asked why they were unique and what about that uniqueness deserves the special, superior rights that they often give themselves above the other creatures.
Get off this “ability to reason” bullshit (DB & others). The basic question Oleena is proposing is is there a trait or characteristic that is unique to humans. While humans are the best at reasoning, imo, other animals are able to reason.
Let’s drop this “ability to imagine” shit that’s been brought up too. Humans have always been trying to come up with characteristics that are unique to us. When I was a kid “only humans make tools”. Nope lots of animal make tools. Later I hear “only humans have sex for pleasure alone”. Nope, lots of animals have recreational sex. I’ve even heard humans are the only animals who play. Seriously. Love? No your dog love you more than you love your dog. And it’s not because you’re so nice to him.
So now you (and by “you” I mean all of you who desperately need to come up with something that is unique to humans) have come up with “imagination” something that is near impossible to prove or disprove. No you have to come up with something that is provable for this discussion.
Besides, the area of the brain devoted to imagination is highly developed in Sperm Whales. For all we know, Sperm Whales are out there swimming around the vast oceans dreaming up shit we can’t even imagine.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
here is another conjecture, by which I simply mean a challenge for others to consider:
Someone, I can’t remember whom, argued that humans can create systems of morality because psychologically they can not just see things from their point of view, nor from the point of view of a person they may effect, but from the point of view of an objective third person.
What do you think? Do animals see their interactions from the point of view of an objective third person?[/quote]
I don’t know.
How would this ability give us special, superior rights above other beings?
[quote]on edge wrote:
Get off this “ability to reason” bullshit (DB & others). The basic question Oleena is proposing is is there a trait or characteristic that is unique to humans. While humans are the best at reasoning, imo, other animals are able to reason.
Let’s drop this “ability to imagine” shit that’s been brought up too. Humans have always been trying to come up with characteristics that are unique to us. When I was a kid “only humans make tools”. Nope lots of animal make tools. Later I hear “only humans have sex for pleasure alone”. Nope, lots of animals have recreational sex. I’ve even heard humans are the only animals who play. Seriously. Love? No your dog love you more than you love your dog. And it’s not because you’re so nice to him.
So now you (and by “you” I mean all of you who desperately need to come up with something that is unique to humans) have come up with “imagination” something that is near impossible to prove or disprove. No you have to come up with something that is provable for this discussion.
Besides, the area of the brain devoted to imagination is highly developed in Sperm Whales. For all we know, Sperm Whales are out there swimming around the vast oceans dreaming up shit we can’t even imagine.[/quote]
lol.
“It is an important and popular fact that things are not always what they seem. For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much - the wheel, New York, wars and so on - whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man - for precisely the same reasons.” ~Douglas Adams, The Hitch-Hiker’s Guide to the Galaxy
[quote]Oleena wrote:
[quote]Eli B wrote:
Anxiety for the future is one big thing that distinguishes us. Read Carl Sagan’s Dragons of Eden. He delves into exactly this point and its ethical ramifications. Great read overall.
After reading I would say that mistreatment of the great apes, dolphins and whales is fairly reprehensible.
From what I understood essentially the main difference between us and less intelligent animals is the size, capacity and efficient organization of our neocortices. This newest development in evolutionary brain development gives us the ability to perform meta-cognition. To think about the way we think, to plan for the future, and other higher level thought.
Edit:
Pretend I didn’t use development twice in one sentence in the above paragraph.
Edit II:
I just thought also of our capacity for imbuing the abstract with meaning thanks to our “special” neocortices. This is perhaps the most important. Think of the invention of alphabet. Given that the human pelvis can only practically get so wide to accomodate child birth to brainiacs. The brain is done growing. We have essentially outsourced to books, computers the internet our advancement as a species.
If I have not done a good job explaining pick up the book. Dragons of Eden.
[/quote]
All of your points are valid as far as I know, with the exception of the one about us being the only species that experiences anxiety about the future. I can think of quite a few examples of that not being true, but this is the one most people get the biggest kick out of (note it’s also one of the simplest. There are quite a few examples of animals using language to talk about the future):
[/quote]
I disagree. I can’t think of any examples besides humans, the great apes (does that include chimps?), and whales and dolphins. Now obviously I can’t be certain that animals like the coconut carrying octopus don’t engage in metacognition, however I think most animal behaviorists would attribute behavior that appears “wise” or “smart” to instinctive behavior that could even be coded in their DNA.
Most animals live in the present. Take a gazelle. A herd of gazelle will look very peaceful and content grazing in the savanna. They will cock an ear or scan the horizon periodically, and the instant a predator is spotted they will be seized with panic and bolt full bore until they are eaten or reach safety. At which point they will lapse once again into placidity. Gazelles are not smart by our standards. They are athletes. If they relied on anxiety/contemplation they would not be relying on their strengths. They are not going to out strategize the lion, buy they very well may outrun him or her.
Their wisdom is encoded. They instinctively feel comfortable in wide open places, they prefer to graze in packs. Their young is capable of walking and running in a matter of minutes compared to our years. This is hardwired much more than taught.
I would be interested in your examples of animals contemplating the future if you could provide some.
Eli- My personal favorite example of an animal contemplating the future is Washoe, the chimp in the original video, and her friends talking in sign language amongst themselves about how much they were looking forward to thanksgiving and discussing the foods they were going to get in September of one year. They had no reason from outside stimuli to be thinking about the fact that Thanksgiving was coming, they just remembered from past years and were looking forward to it.
Another Washoe is example of thinking ahead happened one time when her maint researcher left her to go into a gas station to buy food during a transportation. While he was in the store, she asked to go out to use the bathroom, and then once outside threatened to rip the windshield wipers off of the car and smash in the windows if the other researchers didnt give her soda. When he returned, she was standing beside a pile of cans. There are many other examples of her using threats about future actions on her part to get what she wanted. That sort of manipulation is a complex thought process about the future if ever there was one.
Btw, do you not define great apes, dolfins, and whales to be animals? Because your above statement seems to imply that you dont.
[quote]on edge wrote:
Get off this “ability to reason” bullshit (DB & others). The basic question Oleena is proposing is is there a trait or characteristic that is unique to humans. While humans are the best at reasoning, imo, other animals are able to reason.
Let’s drop this “ability to imagine” shit that’s been brought up too. Humans have always been trying to come up with characteristics that are unique to us. When I was a kid “only humans make tools”. Nope lots of animal make tools. Later I hear “only humans have sex for pleasure alone”. Nope, lots of animals have recreational sex. I’ve even heard humans are the only animals who play. Seriously. Love? No your dog love you more than you love your dog. And it’s not because you’re so nice to him.
So now you (and by “you” I mean all of you who desperately need to come up with something that is unique to humans) have come up with “imagination” something that is near impossible to prove or disprove. No you have to come up with something that is provable for this discussion.
Besides, the area of the brain devoted to imagination is highly developed in Sperm Whales. For all we know, Sperm Whales are out there swimming around the vast oceans dreaming up shit we can’t even imagine.[/quote]
This is why I suggested that looking at our traits as the whole being more than the sum of its parts. Theres examples you could use for most things that other animals are capable of the same thing. There’s paintings by gorillas that they name using sign language they’ve been taught. The GORILLAS are the ones that name it, not the people. I think that could be the start of an argument of abstract thought, creativity (imagination), feelings, and possibly even reason for at least ONE other animal, marking many of the traits described here as not being unique to humans. Possibly not as developed as humans, but still not unique.
BG: You’re right, my mistake. I used that term because I felt that it would engender the concept that each person arguing for a superior rights or whatever that humans have. Personally? I do think we are superior. Why? Because I’m the only one in nature willing to sit down and discuss it. I tried it with my dog. She couldn’t stand my vastly superior reasoning and logic and walked away, trying to avoid the forgone conclusion that I am obviously superior. Dog= forfeit, human=winning.
Oleena: Thank you for quoting Douglas Adams. You have made the world a slightly better place. He’s my 4th favorite author, the order being something like Terry Pratchett>Bill Waterson>Gary Larson>Douglas Adams>Michael Chrichton/Scott Adams/Phillip Pullman
[quote]Oleena wrote:
Eli- My personal favorite example of an animal contemplating the future is Washoe, the chimp in the original video, and her friends talking in sign language amongst themselves about how much they were looking forward to thanksgiving and discussing the foods they were going to get in September of one year. They had no reason from outside stimuli to be thinking about the fact that Thanksgiving was coming, they just remembered from past years and were looking forward to it.
Another Washoe is example of thinking ahead happened one time when her maint researcher left her to go into a gas station to buy food during a transportation. While he was in the store, she asked to go out to use the bathroom, and then once outside threatened to rip the windshield wipers off of the car and smash in the windows if the other researchers didnt give her soda. When he returned, she was standing beside a pile of cans. There are many other examples of her using threats about future actions on her part to get what she wanted. That sort of manipulation is a complex thought process about the future if ever there was one.
Btw, do you not define great apes, dolfins, and whales to be animals? Because your above statement seems to imply that you dont.[/quote]
No, they are certainly animals. I intended to write that only these classes of animals (mammals) with highly developed neocortices do higher order thinking.
I thought you were arguing that animals besides these exceptional few demonstrate higher orders of cognition.
How many animals cook?
[quote]Bambi wrote:
How many animals cook?[/quote]
Just dragons I guess.
doesn’t cooking destroy nutrients?
How many animals wield fire? Certainly not any fucking dolphins. Fucking dolphins.
[quote]Skyman70 wrote:
[quote]on edge wrote:
Get off this “ability to reason” bullshit (DB & others). The basic question Oleena is proposing is is there a trait or characteristic that is unique to humans. While humans are the best at reasoning, imo, other animals are able to reason.
Let’s drop this “ability to imagine” shit that’s been brought up too. Humans have always been trying to come up with characteristics that are unique to us. When I was a kid “only humans make tools”. Nope lots of animal make tools. Later I hear “only humans have sex for pleasure alone”. Nope, lots of animals have recreational sex. I’ve even heard humans are the only animals who play. Seriously. Love? No your dog love you more than you love your dog. And it’s not because you’re so nice to him.
So now you (and by “you” I mean all of you who desperately need to come up with something that is unique to humans) have come up with “imagination” something that is near impossible to prove or disprove. No you have to come up with something that is provable for this discussion.
Besides, the area of the brain devoted to imagination is highly developed in Sperm Whales. For all we know, Sperm Whales are out there swimming around the vast oceans dreaming up shit we can’t even imagine.[/quote]
This is why I suggested that looking at our traits as the whole being more than the sum of its parts. Theres examples you could use for most things that other animals are capable of the same thing. There’s paintings by gorillas that they name using sign language they’ve been taught. The GORILLAS are the ones that name it, not the people. I think that could be the start of an argument of abstract thought, creativity (imagination), feelings, and possibly even reason for at least ONE other animal, marking many of the traits described here as not being unique to humans. Possibly not as developed as humans, but still not unique.
BG: You’re right, my mistake. I used that term because I felt that it would engender the concept that each person arguing for a superior rights or whatever that humans have. Personally? I do think we are superior. Why? Because I’m the only one in nature willing to sit down and discuss it. I tried it with my dog. She couldn’t stand my vastly superior reasoning and logic and walked away, trying to avoid the forgone conclusion that I am obviously superior. Dog= forfeit, human=winning.
Oleena: Thank you for quoting Douglas Adams. You have made the world a slightly better place. He’s my 4th favorite author, the order being something like Terry Pratchett>Bill Waterson>Gary Larson>Douglas Adams>Michael Chrichton/Scott Adams/Phillip Pullman[/quote]
Yeah, apes of many varieties have shown the ability to use symbols, to coin words by combining existing words, to lie. They can pretty much do it all.
The only thing they really lack is articulate verbal communication. Sagan hypothesizes that early humans systematically destroyed other hominids that showed greater capacity to communicate, recognizing that they were competition. This produced the narrow gulf between humans and apes where we share similar cognitive abilities with the distinction of one can produce speech and one cannot.
No proof to it, just an interesting theory from an unbeleivable genius.
[quote]Eli B wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Eli B wrote:
Anxiety for the future is one big thing that distinguishes us. Read Carl Sagan’s Dragons of Eden. He delves into exactly this point and its ethical ramifications. Great read overall.
After reading I would say that mistreatment of the great apes, dolphins and whales is fairly reprehensible.
From what I understood essentially the main difference between us and less intelligent animals is the size, capacity and efficient organization of our neocortices. This newest development in evolutionary brain development gives us the ability to perform meta-cognition. To think about the way we think, to plan for the future, and other higher level thought.
Edit:
Pretend I didn’t use development twice in one sentence in the above paragraph.
Edit II:
I just thought also of our capacity for imbuing the abstract with meaning thanks to our “special” neocortices. This is perhaps the most important. Think of the invention of alphabet. Given that the human pelvis can only practically get so wide to accomodate child birth to brainiacs. The brain is done growing. We have essentially outsourced to books, computers the internet our advancement as a species.
If I have not done a good job explaining pick up the book. Dragons of Eden.
[/quote]
Distinguished is “different” and different is not “special”. Each species in unique. I think the point of the OP was to wonder why we deserve special consideration above all other life. So what we worry about the “future”. Perhaps worrying about the future is a fool’s errand.
The future does not exist for any particular human. Our time ends on average in about 70 years, with no guarantee for any given tomorrow - same for the earth itself. Tomorrow, quite literally, may not exist, and may never come - for any of us, or for all of us. Perhaps worrying about tomorrow is our greatest failure.[/quote]
The capacities I describe make us especially intelligent. The definition of special is semantic, philosophical, or theological. All of which are examples of our intelligence but which I am not at present interested in discussing.
Furthermore we are exceptional in our ability to pass on cultural knowledge through writing in all its forms. Our legacy can truly last longer than 70 years. If we don’t destroy our planet, I believe that human culture will continue to develop and adapt in beautiful and beneficial ways albeit with periodic setbacks. That is special enough to me.[/quote]
legacy? you mean destroying the planet with each successive generation? war? prejudice? greed? If you’re not interested in discussing, don’t. But I do agree (in part) that this ultimately lies in theology. Absent theology, there is nothing really special about us.
[quote]on edge wrote:
Get off this “ability to reason” bullshit (DB & others). The basic question Oleena is proposing is is there a trait or characteristic that is unique to humans. While humans are the best at reasoning, imo, other animals are able to reason.
Let’s drop this “ability to imagine” shit that’s been brought up too. Humans have always been trying to come up with characteristics that are unique to us. When I was a kid “only humans make tools”. Nope lots of animal make tools. Later I hear “only humans have sex for pleasure alone”. Nope, lots of animals have recreational sex. I’ve even heard humans are the only animals who play. Seriously. Love? No your dog love you more than you love your dog. And it’s not because you’re so nice to him.
So now you (and by “you” I mean all of you who desperately need to come up with something that is unique to humans) have come up with “imagination” something that is near impossible to prove or disprove. No you have to come up with something that is provable for this discussion.
Besides, the area of the brain devoted to imagination is highly developed in Sperm Whales. For all we know, Sperm Whales are out there swimming around the vast oceans dreaming up shit we can’t even imagine.[/quote]
I agree with you except to where you got to your dog. Stop feeding your dog, and see how much he “loves” you. We domesticated them with food and I can come take your dog and win his “love” with food. I can take a terribly mean aggressive dog and “tame” him by damn near starving him. Other than that, I agree with your point 
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Eli B wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]Eli B wrote:
Anxiety for the future is one big thing that distinguishes us. Read Carl Sagan’s Dragons of Eden. He delves into exactly this point and its ethical ramifications. Great read overall.
After reading I would say that mistreatment of the great apes, dolphins and whales is fairly reprehensible.
From what I understood essentially the main difference between us and less intelligent animals is the size, capacity and efficient organization of our neocortices. This newest development in evolutionary brain development gives us the ability to perform meta-cognition. To think about the way we think, to plan for the future, and other higher level thought.
Edit:
Pretend I didn’t use development twice in one sentence in the above paragraph.
Edit II:
I just thought also of our capacity for imbuing the abstract with meaning thanks to our “special” neocortices. This is perhaps the most important. Think of the invention of alphabet. Given that the human pelvis can only practically get so wide to accomodate child birth to brainiacs. The brain is done growing. We have essentially outsourced to books, computers the internet our advancement as a species.
If I have not done a good job explaining pick up the book. Dragons of Eden.
[/quote]
Distinguished is “different” and different is not “special”. Each species in unique. I think the point of the OP was to wonder why we deserve special consideration above all other life. So what we worry about the “future”. Perhaps worrying about the future is a fool’s errand.
The future does not exist for any particular human. Our time ends on average in about 70 years, with no guarantee for any given tomorrow - same for the earth itself. Tomorrow, quite literally, may not exist, and may never come - for any of us, or for all of us. Perhaps worrying about tomorrow is our greatest failure.[/quote]
The capacities I describe make us especially intelligent. The definition of special is semantic, philosophical, or theological. All of which are examples of our intelligence but which I am not at present interested in discussing.
Furthermore we are exceptional in our ability to pass on cultural knowledge through writing in all its forms. Our legacy can truly last longer than 70 years. If we don’t destroy our planet, I believe that human culture will continue to develop and adapt in beautiful and beneficial ways albeit with periodic setbacks. That is special enough to me.[/quote]
legacy? you mean destroying the planet with each successive generation? war? prejudice? greed? If you’re not interested in discussing, don’t. But I do agree (in part) that this ultimately lies in theology. Absent theology, there is nothing really special about us.[/quote]
I think of scientific legacy. Jonas Salk and the vaccine. Was not so long ago that we were practicing bloodletting. You cite only negative examples. My hope is that technology leads us to seamless governments, unforeseeable advances in healthcare, social science, energy, transportation etc. The world powered sustainably through a few large hadron colliders. The wisdom to humanely control population as needed. Equity and abundance. Pax Humana.
If not that then yeah, a few more centuries of pointless brutality awaiting a merciful extinction.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
This thread is for real data, not philosophical musings, as to why humans are unique and thus deserve special, superior rights as being special above other animals. If you make a claim, you need to post a reference of some kind with it.
[/quote]
I think the only reason we care for the rights of other animals is for self serving reasons. We feel bad that animals have to be tortured for the purpose of finding a cure for deceases, but I would be the last to say we should stop, my niece has diabetes, so we make laws to hopefully make it more humane and the experiments more necessary. I think these laws were made up is so we wouldn’t feel so bad. What would be the purpose of caring more for a species that is not your own?
No one species on the planet is anymore important than the other, other than what effect their extinction would have on the rest of the planet. The only reason why humans are a bigger concern to humans is because it is our own species.[edit here in a hurry lol]
I have no idea how to answer such a silly question, other than to quote Dr.Suess
“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells.”
I think about some lions and some zebras. And I consider the lions hunting the zebras, and the zebras running away. Of course, for the lion to eat, the zebra has to die, and for the zebra to live the lion has to starve.
If either were able to articulate their positions on a level humans can, each would say they were special somehow, that lion life is sacred, or that zebra life is sacred. So one zebra might ask “Is zebra life sacred?” and the other would reply “Of course.” Same with the lions. Neither would be able to say exactly what made their life sacred over another animal, it would just be a feeling.
Nothing objectively makes humans “special”. But humans (and human life) “feels” special, over all other living things. And since we only have other humans to ask the question to, of course we get the same answer, that humans are special somehow. Emotions dont deal in facts; its not a question we can be objective about or explain with logic and reason.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
This thread is for real data, not philosophical musings, as to why humans are unique and thus deserve special…[/quote]
Deserve? No animal (including us) is owed anything from a cold universe. “Deserve” is supernatural talk.