Many people on here state a conclusion as if it’s fact; that doesn’t mean they think they are smart. They also deny other’s opinions using reasoning; once again doesn’t mean they’re smart.
[/quote]
This is so true
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
This thread is for real data, not philosophical musings, as to why humans are unique and thus deserve special…[/quote]
Deserve? No animal (including us) is owed anything from a cold universe. “Deserve” is supernatural talk.[/quote]I think her point is that we don’t “deserve” to be special. Of course without that supra human court beyond which there is no appeal she might be right… or wrong, but who then has a substantive reason to care one way or another? As someone who believes that I and her were created in the image and likeness of the most high God and given dominion over the rest of creation, I have every reason to care and a set of concrete principles on which to proceed. (This oughta be good)
I would also like to ask does anyone else feel like we are starting this argument in the middle? My ex would get drunk and start arguments with me in the middle, it was very confusing. It seems like there should be lead up threads or something, like this is maybe part 6 of a series. I think the one she started about prisoner experiments was part 5.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]on edge wrote:
Get off this “ability to reason” bullshit (DB & others). The basic question Oleena is proposing is is there a trait or characteristic that is unique to humans. While humans are the best at reasoning, imo, other animals are able to reason.
Let’s drop this “ability to imagine” shit that’s been brought up too. Humans have always been trying to come up with characteristics that are unique to us. When I was a kid “only humans make tools”. Nope lots of animal make tools. Later I hear “only humans have sex for pleasure alone”. Nope, lots of animals have recreational sex. I’ve even heard humans are the only animals who play. Seriously. Love? No your dog love you more than you love your dog. And it’s not because you’re so nice to him.
So now you (and by “you” I mean all of you who desperately need to come up with something that is unique to humans) have come up with “imagination” something that is near impossible to prove or disprove. No you have to come up with something that is provable for this discussion.
Besides, the area of the brain devoted to imagination is highly developed in Sperm Whales. For all we know, Sperm Whales are out there swimming around the vast oceans dreaming up shit we can’t even imagine.[/quote]
I agree with you except to where you got to your dog. Stop feeding your dog, and see how much he “loves” you. We domesticated them with food and I can come take your dog and win his “love” with food. I can take a terribly mean aggressive dog and “tame” him by damn near starving him. Other than that, I agree with your point 
[/quote]
Good point but if a man loves a woman and she stops having sex with him? Or feeding him? lol
[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
I think about some lions and some zebras. And I consider the lions hunting the zebras, and the zebras running away. Of course, for the lion to eat, the zebra has to die, and for the zebra to live the lion has to starve.
If either were able to articulate their positions on a level humans can, each would say they were special somehow, that lion life is sacred, or that zebra life is sacred. So one zebra might ask “Is zebra life sacred?” and the other would reply “Of course.” Same with the lions. Neither would be able to say exactly what made their life sacred over another animal, it would just be a feeling.
Nothing objectively makes humans “special”. But humans (and human life) “feels” special, over all other living things. And since we only have other humans to ask the question to, of course we get the same answer, that humans are special somehow. Emotions dont deal in facts; its not a question we can be objective about or explain with logic and reason.[/quote]
I agree, I kind of think this specialness feeling is like an extrapolation of feeling like your own offspring are special. It seems like a survival instinct. My offspring must survive at all cost because they are special(contain my dna)?
Specialness = Survival Instinct maybe? At least at the individual level.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Sloth wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
This thread is for real data, not philosophical musings, as to why humans are unique and thus deserve special…[/quote]
Deserve? No animal (including us) is owed anything from a cold universe. “Deserve” is supernatural talk.[/quote]I think her point is that we don’t “deserve” to be special. Of course without that supra human court beyond which there is no appeal she might be right… or wrong, but who then has a substantive reason to care one way or another? As someone who believes that I and her were created in the image and likeness of the most high God and given dominion over the rest of creation, I have every reason to care and a set of concrete principles on which to proceed. (This oughta be good)
[/quote]
Geez, I already said that the only reason may be found in theology and you give me no credit??!! LOL
[quote]on edge wrote:
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:
[quote]on edge wrote:
Get off this “ability to reason” bullshit (DB & others). The basic question Oleena is proposing is is there a trait or characteristic that is unique to humans. While humans are the best at reasoning, imo, other animals are able to reason.
Let’s drop this “ability to imagine” shit that’s been brought up too. Humans have always been trying to come up with characteristics that are unique to us. When I was a kid “only humans make tools”. Nope lots of animal make tools. Later I hear “only humans have sex for pleasure alone”. Nope, lots of animals have recreational sex. I’ve even heard humans are the only animals who play. Seriously. Love? No your dog love you more than you love your dog. And it’s not because you’re so nice to him.
So now you (and by “you” I mean all of you who desperately need to come up with something that is unique to humans) have come up with “imagination” something that is near impossible to prove or disprove. No you have to come up with something that is provable for this discussion.
Besides, the area of the brain devoted to imagination is highly developed in Sperm Whales. For all we know, Sperm Whales are out there swimming around the vast oceans dreaming up shit we can’t even imagine.[/quote]
I agree with you except to where you got to your dog. Stop feeding your dog, and see how much he “loves” you. We domesticated them with food and I can come take your dog and win his “love” with food. I can take a terribly mean aggressive dog and “tame” him by damn near starving him. Other than that, I agree with your point [/quote]
Good point but if a man loves a woman and she stops having sex with him? Or feeding him? lol[/quote]
LOL we’re not much higher functioning than dogs apparently
[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
This thread is for real data, not philosophical musings, as to why humans are unique and thus deserve special, superior rights as being special above other animals. If you make a claim, you need to post a reference of some kind with it.
[/quote]
I think the only reason we care for the rights of other animals is for self serving reasons. We feel bad that animals have to be tortured for the purpose of finding a cure for deceases, but I would be the last to say we should stop, my niece has diabetes, so we make laws to hopefully make it more humane and the experiments more necessary. I think these laws were made up is so we wouldn’t feel so bad. What would be the purpose of caring more for a species that is not your own?
No one species on the planet is anymore important than the other, other than what effect their extinction would have on the rest of the planet. The only reason why humans are a bigger concern to humans is because it is our own species.[edit here in a hurry lol]
I have no idea how to answer such a silly question, other than to quote Dr.Suess
“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells.”[/quote]
i think animal abuse was frowned upon in early cultures, because those who abused animals were known to eventually abuse humans as well. Abusing animals is bad because the abuser is harmed, and eventually harms society.
It’s funny when your outside of society walking through the woods, a dog will take 10 seconds to find the best spot to take a piss; a man will pull his pants down and piss without thought.
We think we are supremely intelligent but that in itself limits our intelligence.
[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:
I would also like to ask does anyone else feel like we are starting this argument in the middle? [/quote]Any dialog whatsoever un-prefaced by epistemology is automatically already in the middle.
[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:<<< Geez, I already said that the only reason may be found in theology and you give me no credit??!! LOL[/quote]I honestly didn’t see it, but certainly agree on the bare point though only true biblical epistemology provides the foundation for true theology. And vice versa. All by faith. The longer I live and the more I observe people, which is very efficiently accomplished in forums like these, the more evidence I find (by volume not strength) for that undeniable truth.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
This thread is for real data, not philosophical musings, as to why humans are unique and thus deserve special, superior rights as being special above other animals. If you make a claim, you need to post a reference of some kind with it.
[/quote]
I think the only reason we care for the rights of other animals is for self serving reasons. We feel bad that animals have to be tortured for the purpose of finding a cure for deceases, but I would be the last to say we should stop, my niece has diabetes, so we make laws to hopefully make it more humane and the experiments more necessary. I think these laws were made up is so we wouldn’t feel so bad. What would be the purpose of caring more for a species that is not your own?
No one species on the planet is anymore important than the other, other than what effect their extinction would have on the rest of the planet. The only reason why humans are a bigger concern to humans is because it is our own species.[edit here in a hurry lol]
I have no idea how to answer such a silly question, other than to quote Dr.Suess
“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells.”[/quote]
i think animal abuse was frowned upon in early cultures, because those who abused animals were known to eventually abuse humans as well. Abusing animals is bad because the abuser is harmed, and eventually harms society. [/quote]
Abuse? I suppose using animals for research could be seen as abuse and we have been known to experiment on people. Is this the progression of abuse you were talking about?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:
I would also like to ask does anyone else feel like we are starting this argument in the middle? [/quote]Any dialog whatsoever un-prefaced by epistemology is automatically already in the middle.
[/quote]
And what would the epistemology that we are missing for this dialog?
[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
This thread is for real data, not philosophical musings, as to why humans are unique and thus deserve special, superior rights as being special above other animals. If you make a claim, you need to post a reference of some kind with it.
[/quote]
I think the only reason we care for the rights of other animals is for self serving reasons. We feel bad that animals have to be tortured for the purpose of finding a cure for deceases, but I would be the last to say we should stop, my niece has diabetes, so we make laws to hopefully make it more humane and the experiments more necessary. I think these laws were made up is so we wouldn’t feel so bad. What would be the purpose of caring more for a species that is not your own?
No one species on the planet is anymore important than the other, other than what effect their extinction would have on the rest of the planet. The only reason why humans are a bigger concern to humans is because it is our own species.[edit here in a hurry lol]
I have no idea how to answer such a silly question, other than to quote Dr.Suess
“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells.”[/quote]
i think animal abuse was frowned upon in early cultures, because those who abused animals were known to eventually abuse humans as well. Abusing animals is bad because the abuser is harmed, and eventually harms society. [/quote]
Abuse? I suppose using animals for research could be seen as abuse and we have been known to experiment on people. Is this the progression of abuse you were talking about?[/quote]
No, I mean willful or knowledgeable animal torture, primarily for its own sake.
[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:
I would also like to ask does anyone else feel like we are starting this argument in the middle? [/quote]Any dialog whatsoever un-prefaced by epistemology is automatically already in the middle.
[/quote]
And what would the epistemology that we are missing for this dialog?[/quote]Actually epistemology prefaces every dialog necessarily whether the participants realize it or not. Everybody has one un"proven" principle that governs how they arrive at every last conclusion in their lives from simple mathematics to “where did I come from and why am I here”. I don’t want to get too far afield of the immediate topic at hand, but your comment reminded me of how every question there is or could be is ultimately meaningless unless we first answer the question of how (and why) do we know ANYTHING at all.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:
I would also like to ask does anyone else feel like we are starting this argument in the middle? [/quote]Any dialog whatsoever un-prefaced by epistemology is automatically already in the middle.
[/quote]
And what would the epistemology that we are missing for this dialog?[/quote]Actually epistemology prefaces every dialog necessarily whether the participants realize it or not. Everybody has one un"proven" principle that governs how they arrive at every last conclusion in their lives from simple mathematics to “where did I come from and why am I here”. I don’t want to get too far afield of the immediate topic at hand, but your comment reminded me of how every question there is or could be is ultimately meaningless unless we first answer the question of how (and why) do we know ANYTHING at all.
[/quote]
I’ve given some Epistemological assumptions though. 1) When we make hypotheses we assume that humans have free will; 2) Humans are unique because they can ask philisophical questions; 3) We are able to construct morality by observing from the point of view of a more or less objective third person for example.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]Charlie Horse wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
This thread is for real data, not philosophical musings, as to why humans are unique and thus deserve special, superior rights as being special above other animals. If you make a claim, you need to post a reference of some kind with it.
[/quote]
I think the only reason we care for the rights of other animals is for self serving reasons. We feel bad that animals have to be tortured for the purpose of finding a cure for deceases, but I would be the last to say we should stop, my niece has diabetes, so we make laws to hopefully make it more humane and the experiments more necessary. I think these laws were made up is so we wouldn’t feel so bad. What would be the purpose of caring more for a species that is not your own?
No one species on the planet is anymore important than the other, other than what effect their extinction would have on the rest of the planet. The only reason why humans are a bigger concern to humans is because it is our own species.[edit here in a hurry lol]
I have no idea how to answer such a silly question, other than to quote Dr.Suess
“I like nonsense, it wakes up the brain cells.”[/quote]
i think animal abuse was frowned upon in early cultures, because those who abused animals were known to eventually abuse humans as well. Abusing animals is bad because the abuser is harmed, and eventually harms society. [/quote]
Abuse? I suppose using animals for research could be seen as abuse and we have been known to experiment on people. Is this the progression of abuse you were talking about?[/quote]
No, I mean willful or knowledgeable animal torture, primarily for its own sake.[/quote]
What is one man’s torture or abuse is another man’s sport. I’m curious; comprehensively define “abuse” for me with examples please. Maybe this deserves its own thread.
[quote]Oleena wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
here is another conjecture, by which I simply mean a challenge for others to consider:
Someone, I can’t remember whom, argued that humans can create systems of morality because psychologically they can not just see things from their point of view, nor from the point of view of a person they may effect, but from the point of view of an objective third person.
What do you think? Do animals see their interactions from the point of view of an objective third person?[/quote]
I don’t know.
How would this ability give us special, superior rights above other beings?[/quote]
Because it’s our G-d given ability to be special. It just naturally is that we are superior to the rest of the world.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
here is another conjecture, by which I simply mean a challenge for others to consider:
Someone, I can’t remember whom, argued that humans can create systems of morality because psychologically they can not just see things from their point of view, nor from the point of view of a person they may effect, but from the point of view of an objective third person.
What do you think? Do animals see their interactions from the point of view of an objective third person?[/quote]
I don’t know.
How would this ability give us special, superior rights above other beings?[/quote]
Because it’s our G-d given ability to be special. It just naturally is that we are superior to the rest of the world.[/quote]
I think that he is putting forward that postulating imaginary beings and believing that it mnakes us special actually does make us special.
I am inclined to agree.
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Oleena wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
here is another conjecture, by which I simply mean a challenge for others to consider:
Someone, I can’t remember whom, argued that humans can create systems of morality because psychologically they can not just see things from their point of view, nor from the point of view of a person they may effect, but from the point of view of an objective third person.
What do you think? Do animals see their interactions from the point of view of an objective third person?[/quote]
I don’t know.
How would this ability give us special, superior rights above other beings?[/quote]
Because it’s our G-d given ability to be special. It just naturally is that we are superior to the rest of the world.[/quote]
I think that he is putting forward that postulating imaginary beings and believing that it mnakes us special actually does make us special.
I am inclined to agree.
[/quote]
orion you are really giving ephrem a run for the money to become my new favorite atheist/agnostic.