Are Human's Special and if so, how?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Skyman70 wrote:

This I feel is a key point. In terms of man being “special” that really boils down to what exactly you think is important does it not? Reason could be considered a unique trait as DB said, however, it doesn’t necessarily equate special or useful, simply different. I would argue that man is greater than the sum of his parts or could be considered special BECAUSE of the sum of his parts. We may have capabilities that other organisms have, but do we not classify by both what is different AND what is the same? We are not the only animals to have created “art” (which is an entirely subjective term), or expressed sadness. We are not the only ones to demonstrate problem solving or self recognition. But I think all the parts we do have,is the best argument for a perceived supperiority[/quote]

is a virus that mutates and thrives “superior”?

42

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[/quote]

I knew we couldn’t possibly agree!!! :slight_smile:

I find her “intelligence” absolutely middling and its appearance no more a reflection of her transitional age, an unstable past, and still “finding herself”. There is nothing profound there. Only evidence of misdirected, undisciplined thought, and a penchant for short-cuts, intellectually and emotionally.[/quote]

I’m impressed with her curiosity and willingness to engage in intellectual exercises like these.

Beats the hell out of someone like my sister. She’s an actual genius, but intellectually lazy and completely uneducated, arrogant in believing that just because she thinks something it is therefore true, and when challenged or proven wrong attempts to flee into metaphysical bullshitery which doesn’t apply to any topic, has no relevance in reality, and is by and large made up by her on the spot because of her inability to admit that she has been bested by someone who is of “lesser” intelligence.

(and don’t even get me started on her fucktard friends!)

43

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[/quote]

I knew we couldn’t possibly agree!!! :slight_smile:

I find her “intelligence” absolutely middling and its appearance no more a reflection of her transitional age, an unstable past, and still “finding herself”. There is nothing profound there. Only evidence of misdirected, undisciplined thought, and a penchant for short-cuts, intellectually and emotionally.[/quote]

Maybe she just likes to watch a dog fight

44

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:<<< I knew we couldn’t possibly agree!!! :slight_smile: [/quote]Oh… pshaw [quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:<<< I find her “intelligence” absolutely middling and its appearance no more a reflection of her transitional age, >>>[/quote]I continue to disagree. I see subsrtantive intelligence under all the pretense. [quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:an unstable past, >>>[/quote]That thought crossed my mind too actually. [quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:<<< and still “finding herself”. >>>[/quote]Of course. She’s a kid. [quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:<<< There is nothing profound there. >>>[/quote]I didn’t say there was. [quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:<<< Only evidence of misdirected, undisciplined thought, and a penchant for short-cuts, intellectually and emotionally. >>>[/quote]That’s pretty much what I said. In her case I think the shortcuts go along with the lack of discipline and not outright laziness though you didn’t actually say that outright either.

In any case she’ll be staring cross eyed at her monitor wondering how on earth she got in the middle of this inane debate about herself in the first place.

45

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
What separates man from animals, what makes us “special”, is our ability to reason. In short, our ability to even have this conversation makes us “special”. Other animals may display intelligence beyond what humans display in terms of memory retention, conditioning and so forth, but they cannot THINK about what it is that is going on around them.

Animals see food for instance, and they know that it’s food and they know how to use their intellect to get it and maybe they’re smart enough to adapt the way they get it if their prey is pretty smart as well. But they can’t sit there and think about the significance of the food; they can’t grasp what that food is in relation to the world around it, they can’t think about their future, they can’t communicate to others what it is they are, etc., etc.

Man can do all of this. We can think about ourselves in terms of our relationship to the rest of the world, we can reason and make decisions that do or don’t make sense, we aren’t driven by instinct in the same manner that animals are and we can settle disputes or rid ourselves of our enemies without resorting to physicality. We can plan for the future, not just the near future but the distant future as well.

We can prepare for the future, we can prepare against bad fortune, we can foresee things that we have never experienced because we can use logic and deduction to come to a conclusion about what must happen in various situations. Animals can’t do this. They aren’t Aware. In many ways humans are just like all other animals, in many ways we seem to be inferior to them. But the ability to reason is so much different than anything else that separates or unites animals and humans that it has to be considered something that makes us “special” by comparison.[/quote]

Well, looked at another way, relative to your post above, perhaps the human ability to “reason” is not in fact special, but a burden. After all, “reason” has not saved this planet from the destruction we cause it or, each other.

To imply our ability to reason is a higher function, thereby making us superior to other life is just a value judgment at the end of the day and, perhaps myopic. We certainly do not live in harmony with our surrounding, or each other. Food for thought?[/quote]

Well, when I say “special” I put it in quotes because that is the term Oleena initially used. I tend to agree with you that it isn’t special because of the burden that it places on humanity and that perhaps unique is a better term to use. But I also think that while we may have a heavy burden placed on our shoulders, it’s due to the fact that our ability to reason also means that we have the power to drastically alter the environment we live in, from being able to provide better and better forms of transportation, food, clothing, shelter to things as mundane as better forms of entertainment. To reason is to have a power that no other animal on the planet has. So this reasoning ability is really just a huge responsibility rather than a burden. The responsibility can be a burden, but I think that THAT is what is relative here, namely how we look at our role on the planet and how our ability to reason impacts that role.

I would argue that the power to reason does indeed make us a superior life form in many ways. Intellectually I would argue that it makes us very much the superior being on the planet. But how we use that intellect and that power is totally separate from its value. We may not use this power well and we may fall short in our reasoning to horrific consequences, but that does not make the ability to reason an insignificant ability. Humans, by nature, may very well be predisposed to do wrong, as many philosophers would argue, and as such the fact that we are doomed to failure in some way, shape or form, ALONG with the fact that we have this huge responsibility as beings and we HAVEN"T destroyed ourselves and the planet entirely sometimes makes me think that humans are superior simply because we have bucked the odds thus far.[/quote]

It’s a responsibility that we have proven, and continue to prove, that we cannot shoulder. To say that the ability to “reason” is in some fashion “superior” is clearly a value judgment. More likely, what you call “reason”, may in fact be nothing more than “selfish”. We “reason” for our own good, at the expense of other, nature and the planet. Good discussion though.[/quote]

See, that’s my point though. The ability to reason in and of itself is superior. We can use reason and logic to do all sorts of great things that animals cannot. And we have proven the ability to do just that. Granted, we also have proven, perhaps more convincingly, that we cannot shoulder that burden. But just because we cannot handle it does not make reason by itself less-than superior, only our application of it.

Sure, it’s a value judgment, but that’s the beauty of the whole thing: we humans can actually make value judgments about these sorts of things because we have the ability to think in the abstract. Given that that ability gives us the power to enact great change and action that other animals cannot, how is that not part of what makes us a superior animal, regardless of what we actually do with it?

46

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:
metaphysical bullshitery
[/quote]

lmfao

47

If Oleena’s original point is correct and human beings are mere animals (and not intrinsically more important than any other), then I guess we are “special” because it is we who we are talking about it. To a spider, the spider is more “special”. It can’t tell us that, but its behavior shows us that its primary (and really only) concern is with its own and perhaps its species’ survival. Being animals, we must have the same selfish instinct and therefore we must assign more importance to ourselves than to the rest of creation.

Animals try to survive without batting an eye in the direction of ethics. There is no morality in play when a lion eats a baby gazelle. We as intelligent humans have devised new ways to hurt other animals in our own quest for survival and comfort (animal testing, industrialized agriculture, etc.). In the end is there a difference?

Just a thought.

48

[quote]smh23 wrote:
Your question is philosophical in nature and it warrants a philosophical response. “Special” is not a scientific term. Humans are objectively different from other animal species in innumerable ways, just as more generally all entities are different from all other entities.

But the term “special” connotes a value judgement, and objective science is usually pretty weak in the area of value judgements.[/quote]

REFERENCE, MF! Didn’t you read the rules to this nonsensical thread!

49

[quote]Oleena wrote:
Let’s get back on topic :)[/quote]

Yes, lets do that. So, your question is a question that you presume can be answered by science? Or, is it that you think all reality is physical reality, lowering philosophical answers to the back of the bus with the rest of the non-sense?

50

[quote]orion wrote:
We have ginormous penies and get special props for achieving that without a penis bone.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/194655/penis_size_in_the_animal_kingdom.html[/quote]

We are special because of our ability to be proud of this fact.

51

Anxiety for the future is one big thing that distinguishes us. Read Carl Sagan’s Dragons of Eden. He delves into exactly this point and its ethical ramifications. Great read overall.

After reading I would say that mistreatment of the great apes, dolphins and whales is fairly reprehensible.

From what I understood essentially the main difference between us and less intelligent animals is the size, capacity and efficient organization of our neocortices. This newest development in evolutionary brain development gives us the ability to perform meta-cognition. To think about the way we think, to plan for the future, and other higher level thought.

Edit:
Pretend I didn’t use development twice in one sentence in the above paragraph.

Edit II:

I just thought also of our capacity for imbuing the abstract with meaning thanks to our “special” neocortices. This is perhaps the most important. Think of the invention of alphabet. Given that the human pelvis can only practically get so wide to accomodate child birth to brainiacs. The brain is done growing. We have essentially outsourced to books, computers the internet our advancement as a species.

If I have not done a good job explaining pick up the book. Dragons of Eden.

52

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]DBCooper wrote:
What separates man from animals, what makes us “special”, is our ability to reason. In short, our ability to even have this conversation makes us “special”. Other animals may display intelligence beyond what humans display in terms of memory retention, conditioning and so forth, but they cannot THINK about what it is that is going on around them.

Animals see food for instance, and they know that it’s food and they know how to use their intellect to get it and maybe they’re smart enough to adapt the way they get it if their prey is pretty smart as well. But they can’t sit there and think about the significance of the food; they can’t grasp what that food is in relation to the world around it, they can’t think about their future, they can’t communicate to others what it is they are, etc., etc.

Man can do all of this. We can think about ourselves in terms of our relationship to the rest of the world, we can reason and make decisions that do or don’t make sense, we aren’t driven by instinct in the same manner that animals are and we can settle disputes or rid ourselves of our enemies without resorting to physicality. We can plan for the future, not just the near future but the distant future as well.

We can prepare for the future, we can prepare against bad fortune, we can foresee things that we have never experienced because we can use logic and deduction to come to a conclusion about what must happen in various situations. Animals can’t do this. They aren’t Aware. In many ways humans are just like all other animals, in many ways we seem to be inferior to them. But the ability to reason is so much different than anything else that separates or unites animals and humans that it has to be considered something that makes us “special” by comparison.[/quote]

Well, looked at another way, relative to your post above, perhaps the human ability to “reason” is not in fact special, but a burden. After all, “reason” has not saved this planet from the destruction we cause it or, each other.

To imply our ability to reason is a higher function, thereby making us superior to other life is just a value judgment at the end of the day and, perhaps myopic. We certainly do not live in harmony with our surrounding, or each other. Food for thought?[/quote]

Well, when I say “special” I put it in quotes because that is the term Oleena initially used. I tend to agree with you that it isn’t special because of the burden that it places on humanity and that perhaps unique is a better term to use. But I also think that while we may have a heavy burden placed on our shoulders, it’s due to the fact that our ability to reason also means that we have the power to drastically alter the environment we live in, from being able to provide better and better forms of transportation, food, clothing, shelter to things as mundane as better forms of entertainment. To reason is to have a power that no other animal on the planet has. So this reasoning ability is really just a huge responsibility rather than a burden. The responsibility can be a burden, but I think that THAT is what is relative here, namely how we look at our role on the planet and how our ability to reason impacts that role.

I would argue that the power to reason does indeed make us a superior life form in many ways. Intellectually I would argue that it makes us very much the superior being on the planet. But how we use that intellect and that power is totally separate from its value. We may not use this power well and we may fall short in our reasoning to horrific consequences, but that does not make the ability to reason an insignificant ability. Humans, by nature, may very well be predisposed to do wrong, as many philosophers would argue, and as such the fact that we are doomed to failure in some way, shape or form, ALONG with the fact that we have this huge responsibility as beings and we HAVEN"T destroyed ourselves and the planet entirely sometimes makes me think that humans are superior simply because we have bucked the odds thus far.[/quote]

It’s a responsibility that we have proven, and continue to prove, that we cannot shoulder. To say that the ability to “reason” is in some fashion “superior” is clearly a value judgment. More likely, what you call “reason”, may in fact be nothing more than “selfish”. We “reason” for our own good, at the expense of other, nature and the planet. Good discussion though.[/quote]

See, that’s my point though. The ability to reason in and of itself is superior. We can use reason and logic to do all sorts of great things that animals cannot. And we have proven the ability to do just that. Granted, we also have proven, perhaps more convincingly, that we cannot shoulder that burden. But just because we cannot handle it does not make reason by itself less-than superior, only our application of it.

Sure, it’s a value judgment, but that’s the beauty of the whole thing: we humans can actually make value judgments about these sorts of things because we have the ability to think in the abstract. Given that that ability gives us the power to enact great change and action that other animals cannot, how is that not part of what makes us a superior animal, regardless of what we actually do with it?[/quote]

Well, I’m not sure we disagree ultimately, it’s just how we each get there. By your analysis, we fail miserably and are no higher than any other animal. Our “reason” is ultimately selfishness. No other animal lives inharmonious with the planet or each other. Yet we do. This makes us no more “superior” than a spider is to ant because the spider can spin a web that the ant cannot.

53

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Skyman70 wrote:

This I feel is a key point. In terms of man being “special” that really boils down to what exactly you think is important does it not? Reason could be considered a unique trait as DB said, however, it doesn’t necessarily equate special or useful, simply different. I would argue that man is greater than the sum of his parts or could be considered special BECAUSE of the sum of his parts. We may have capabilities that other organisms have, but do we not classify by both what is different AND what is the same? We are not the only animals to have created “art” (which is an entirely subjective term), or expressed sadness. We are not the only ones to demonstrate problem solving or self recognition. But I think all the parts we do have,is the best argument for a perceived supperiority[/quote]

is a virus that mutates and thrives “superior”? [/quote]

Kind of a contextual question don’t you think? How are you defining superior? What are you asking if its superior to?

54

[quote]Eli B wrote:
Anxiety for the future is one big thing that distinguishes us. Read Carl Sagan’s Dragons of Eden. He delves into exactly this point and its ethical ramifications. Great read overall.

After reading I would say that mistreatment of the great apes, dolphins and whales is fairly reprehensible.

From what I understood essentially the main difference between us and less intelligent animals is the size, capacity and efficient organization of our neocortices. This newest development in evolutionary brain development gives us the ability to perform meta-cognition. To think about the way we think, to plan for the future, and other higher level thought.

Edit:
Pretend I didn’t use development twice in one sentence in the above paragraph.

Edit II:

I just thought also of our capacity for imbuing the abstract with meaning thanks to our “special” neocortices. This is perhaps the most important. Think of the invention of alphabet. Given that the human pelvis can only practically get so wide to accomodate child birth to brainiacs. The brain is done growing. We have essentially outsourced to books, computers the internet our advancement as a species.

If I have not done a good job explaining pick up the book. Dragons of Eden.
[/quote]

Distinguished is “different” and different is not “special”. Each species in unique. I think the point of the OP was to wonder why we deserve special consideration above all other life. So what we worry about the “future”. Perhaps worrying about the future is a fool’s errand.

The future does not exist for any particular human. Our time ends on average in about 70 years, with no guarantee for any given tomorrow - same for the earth itself. Tomorrow, quite literally, may not exist, and may never come - for any of us, or for all of us. Perhaps worrying about tomorrow is our greatest failure.

55

[quote]Skyman70 wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Skyman70 wrote:

This I feel is a key point. In terms of man being “special” that really boils down to what exactly you think is important does it not? Reason could be considered a unique trait as DB said, however, it doesn’t necessarily equate special or useful, simply different. I would argue that man is greater than the sum of his parts or could be considered special BECAUSE of the sum of his parts. We may have capabilities that other organisms have, but do we not classify by both what is different AND what is the same? We are not the only animals to have created “art” (which is an entirely subjective term), or expressed sadness. We are not the only ones to demonstrate problem solving or self recognition. But I think all the parts we do have,is the best argument for a perceived supperiority[/quote]

is a virus that mutates and thrives “superior”? [/quote]

Kind of a contextual question don’t you think? How are you defining superior? What are you asking if its superior to? [/quote]

You used the term. How are you defining it? And however you may define it, how do you escape any connotation to a value judgment? I notice now you did say “perceived superiority”. I think the qualifier “perceived” is a fair observation.

56

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Eli B wrote:
Anxiety for the future is one big thing that distinguishes us. Read Carl Sagan’s Dragons of Eden. He delves into exactly this point and its ethical ramifications. Great read overall.

After reading I would say that mistreatment of the great apes, dolphins and whales is fairly reprehensible.

From what I understood essentially the main difference between us and less intelligent animals is the size, capacity and efficient organization of our neocortices. This newest development in evolutionary brain development gives us the ability to perform meta-cognition. To think about the way we think, to plan for the future, and other higher level thought.

Edit:
Pretend I didn’t use development twice in one sentence in the above paragraph.

Edit II:

I just thought also of our capacity for imbuing the abstract with meaning thanks to our “special” neocortices. This is perhaps the most important. Think of the invention of alphabet. Given that the human pelvis can only practically get so wide to accomodate child birth to brainiacs. The brain is done growing. We have essentially outsourced to books, computers the internet our advancement as a species.

If I have not done a good job explaining pick up the book. Dragons of Eden.
[/quote]

Distinguished is “different” and different is not “special”. Each species in unique. I think the point of the OP was to wonder why we deserve special consideration above all other life. So what we worry about the “future”. Perhaps worrying about the future is a fool’s errand.

The future does not exist for any particular human. Our time ends on average in about 70 years, with no guarantee for any given tomorrow - same for the earth itself. Tomorrow, quite literally, may not exist, and may never come - for any of us, or for all of us. Perhaps worrying about tomorrow is our greatest failure.[/quote]

The capacities I describe make us especially intelligent. The definition of special is semantic, philosophical, or theological. All of which are examples of our intelligence but which I am not at present interested in discussing.

Furthermore we are exceptional in our ability to pass on cultural knowledge through writing in all its forms. Our legacy can truly last longer than 70 years. If we don’t destroy our planet, I believe that human culture will continue to develop and adapt in beautiful and beneficial ways albeit with periodic setbacks. That is special enough to me.

57

I have nothing to add to the (intelligent) debate except the spelling mistake of the title made me rage inside

58

[quote]Eli B wrote:
Anxiety for the future is one big thing that distinguishes us. Read Carl Sagan’s Dragons of Eden. He delves into exactly this point and its ethical ramifications. Great read overall.

After reading I would say that mistreatment of the great apes, dolphins and whales is fairly reprehensible.

From what I understood essentially the main difference between us and less intelligent animals is the size, capacity and efficient organization of our neocortices. This newest development in evolutionary brain development gives us the ability to perform meta-cognition. To think about the way we think, to plan for the future, and other higher level thought.

Edit:
Pretend I didn’t use development twice in one sentence in the above paragraph.

Edit II:

I just thought also of our capacity for imbuing the abstract with meaning thanks to our “special” neocortices. This is perhaps the most important. Think of the invention of alphabet. Given that the human pelvis can only practically get so wide to accomodate child birth to brainiacs. The brain is done growing. We have essentially outsourced to books, computers the internet our advancement as a species.

If I have not done a good job explaining pick up the book. Dragons of Eden.
[/quote]

All of your points are valid as far as I know, with the exception of the one about us being the only species that experiences anxiety about the future. I can think of quite a few examples of that not being true, but this is the one most people get the biggest kick out of (note it’s also one of the simplest. There are quite a few examples of animals using language to talk about the future):

59

[quote]SkyzykS wrote:

[quote]TheBodyGuard wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[/quote]

I knew we couldn’t possibly agree!!! :slight_smile:

I find her “intelligence” absolutely middling and its appearance no more a reflection of her transitional age, an unstable past, and still “finding herself”. There is nothing profound there. Only evidence of misdirected, undisciplined thought, and a penchant for short-cuts, intellectually and emotionally.[/quote]

I’m impressed with her curiosity and willingness to engage in intellectual exercises like these.

Beats the hell out of someone like my sister. She’s an actual genius, but intellectually lazy and completely uneducated, arrogant in believing that just because she thinks something it is therefore true, and when challenged or proven wrong attempts to flee into metaphysical bullshitery which doesn’t apply to any topic, has no relevance in reality, and is by and large made up by her on the spot because of her inability to admit that she has been bested by someone who is of “lesser” intelligence.

(and don’t even get me started on her fucktard friends!)
[/quote]

If only your sister had never been told or treated as if she was smart.

60

I think it hilarious people on here think I think that I’m smarter, and also didn’t catch that I already said “I know you think I think I’m smarter.” I didn’t say “You think I’m smarter”. I am smart enough to read the difference between those, thanks :slight_smile:

Moreover, who gives enough of a fuck whether or not I think I’m smart to discuss it? It really doesn’t matter.