That never happens on here…
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No because everything has a recovery debt. How much volume you can recover from is something that varies between people, this is why there are generic guidelines. Doing too much for too long will just end up in regression or injury. Based on the last sentence of what I quoted though, I’m thinking you may actually be trolling. If you’re not then the quote about wanting to be optimal is the problem, if you keep seeking that then you’ll never get the progression you want because you’ll always be second guessing everything. FUN FACT: Optimal isn’t measurable and doesn’t exist.
Follow a program, believe in it. Learn along the way. These questions are harming your training more than any discrepency you’re nitpicking over in your potential routine.
Not trolling whatsoever. I’m just being honest. I obviously have some sort of mental problem when it comes to sticking with stuff. Actually my friend told me exactly what you just said like 10 years ago and I didn’t listen.
I have this thing where I have to learn the hard way and try out everything before I realize that I should’ve just listened to what people said to do in the first place
Dorain was into strength training and always was.
Marty G. Said something like Dorian was us powerlifters only with forced reps.
I might be wrong but I believe Dorian did volume in his early bodybuilding career until he needed something to get him to the that next level past everyone else and that’s when he did the 1-set all out, then a few forced reps with his partners aid.
This is the difference between lifting 135-225 whereas effective reps with say 275+ in pressing and 405+ in back work and squats you really need the recovery.
When you are weak you need less recovery, when you are strong, you need more recovery, another take from coach Marty!
Are effective reps legit?
Yes and no. People often find comfort in expressing concepts mathematically. This is because math is precise, but concepts are not.
The idea of effective reps is that there is a certain percentage at which more muscle fibres will be involved. As you tire, you could lift less and so you need to rely on more fibres to lift a heavy weight.
It’s a useful concept. But do different people need to lift the same high fraction percentage of maximum to get maximal results? Does effective maximum always decline in such a predictable way? No. This will vary.
But is it useful to compare exercises for efficiency? Is training for strength and hypertrophy different? To a considerable extent, But it is a simplification.
That’s what I have read too.
I actually just thought that the reason most of the pro bodybuilders did higher volume was because they were on gear so they can afford to do it that way. Pretty sure that’s what was being said on bodybuilding dot com back when I joined (RIP). That is why I have been in this go to failure mindset from the very beginning.
Exactly
Ronnie Coleman as he peaked I believe topped off with squats 1-set of 8-12 with 600+ that’s actually the weight range and reps that caused his initial disk injury, he was coming up on squats on his 6-8th rep or something and heard a loud pop and didn’t even know he hurt his disk.
Kirk K. Would also top off his raw squats in the 600 range for 8 reps, 1-set once a week and he had the best legs around. No other leg work.
These are the weights where you can only be minimal to get the most out of it.
These guys also went “all in” in dedicating themselves to get to top level.
The rest of us need to break in and due to having a regular life, family etc well we can’t just copy the pros.
It is amazing that any of us back in the 1970’s, ‘80’s, and ‘90’s put on any muscle at all. I didn’t know anyone who lifted weights like that. Everyone who I knew, who put on significant muscle used a consistent tempo. Some used a near explosive concentric contraction and some more like a steady contraction to feel the muscle. Most all eccentric contractions were a nice smooth descent, but not significantly slow.
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How I do it is once it gets noticeably harder I slow down the negative more and more so I maintain control over the technique. If I just dive bomb the negative I lose tension on the muscle and control over the weight so I end up missing reps way earlier than if I go slow. I don’t think I do 3 second negatives though, maybe like 1.5 seconds on the last couple of reps.
It being a simplification is it’s strength. People are in here talking about Dorian Yates, Ronnie Coleman, and techniques like 3 second negatives as if it matters more than a dribble into an ocean for 99.99% of people. This fixation on content and worrying what other people are doing is why somehow despite all this free information out there, many guys are getting worse returns than guys 30-40 years ago. @RT_Nomad is one of the best voices on this forum because he cuts through a lot of the modern noise.
When/if I get caught up in it I just tell myself “you’re not as advanced as you think you are”, and most people aren’t. Those that do get there have been forced to learn things along the way like “I can no longer recover from squatting heavy that much every week” or “because of my long femurs, maybe I’d be better off doing this exercise for my quads”. A good tip here and there is great, but worrying about “optimal” when a majority are nowhere near the need for that much complexity in their programming just leads to guys weighing 140lbs not deadlifting because of “stimulus to fatigue ratio”, kids walking in doing 3 different lateral raise variations but never pushing anything heavy overhead, dismissing the barbell bench press as a valid exercise and then half repping dumbell incline presses, then refusing to grab the ez-bar hanging around waiting to do curls until a bench is free so they can do sit down incline ones because of that behind the body stretch. Yeah broooo.
How on earth did anyone ever put any muscle or strength on without all these machines at different angles and knowing their one rep max percentage? A reasonable exercise selection, a reasonable amount of volume for a reasonable amount of intensity, over, and over again.
It’s been a while since I’ve been on a forum talking about this stuff so I may have got a bit ranty there. My bad.
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I agree with everything you said.
Simplicity is strength. Show up. Push yourself. Do the basics those in the past have done to get strong. Switch things up slightly every month. Cover all the main movements and body parts. Eat better. Do some stuff you don’t enjoy doing. That’s ninety percent of it. Maybe more.
Also, as Alan Alda said:
Your assumptions are your windows on the world. Scrub them off every once in a while, or the light won’t come in.
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I think a lot of younger dudes would be floored if they saw the training logs for guys like Kaz, pacifico, or coan. Absolute beasts and they had little variation in lift selection and training
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Things work until they don’t. What got you here may not get you there. Once you start lifting really heavy, recovery just takes longer and becomes more important.
Changes in my bounceback speed have caused me to change my routine (now “upper lower push pull legs”). I take a week off every four to six weeks. Bizarrely, it is only during this week off I much notice changes from previous weeks of work, which all seem to come at once.
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Are you one of those guys who just pick a number of sets, a rep range, and hit failure or close to it within that rep rage, without overthinking?
How?
I’ve met a few big dudes who never log their workouts. Must be nice not to be so minutious about this little hobbie. Don’t know if it would work for most.
Edit: nevermind, I see you do 5/3/1. Lol.
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I’ve been all over the place. I’ve played with Paul Carter’s ideas on going hard for one or two sets and tried his 350 sets (3 sets to get 50 total reps with the same weight). I’ve done several of CT’s programs. My best results probably came from Simple Guaranteed Strength and Size program that he posted on his ThibArmy blog. And I’ve done several 5/3/1 templates.
I’m back to 5/3/1 now because I needed to simplify my training. I’ve been wanting to do less and less the last year or so. I also want (need) to focus on some sort of conditioning and mobility stuff. And I want to squeeze that into about 45-60 minutes of gym time. Wendler’s updates to his Krypteia program kind of check the boxes for all of that stuff, so now I’m applying some of those changes to his other templates.
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I remember a thread where Paul Carter was going all Prof. X on everyone who liked volume lol. I actually find two hard sets to be effective, like one top set in the 6-10 rep range, then one in the 12-15. Or vice-versa.
But it was funny how he was shitting on any other aproach on that particular thread. He took a few swings on another T-Nation coach if I remember correctly.
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I never kept a log of any of my workouts. I didn’t write out the workouts. I just remembered as best I could. I wouldn’t recommend that plan. I kept everything in my head.
Then again I never counted calories
I mean, did I say something wrong or are you just nitpicking? Not sure. By counting to 3, I don’t see that different from your version of a smooth decent. Nothing I said in my posts was outside of the printed literature was it? I am just trying to provide general rules of thumb, not start an unnecessary discussion that gets lost in the weeds.
Those are wrong
How fast can you count to 3?
How slow can you count to 3?
In your comment “by counting to 3”, how many seconds transpire?
Do you see how confusing this is? You used a specific number, but failed to provide an approximate duration.