This is a question for those of you who familiar with the westside method. I would like to understand how to use Prelipin’s chart as effectively as possible, however there seems to be some discrepancies with how Louie Simmons implements it. Is there a reason why speed deadlifts are only done for singles? According to the chart, using 60% (which is what L.S. recommends), should be done anywhere from 3-6 reps.
This also holds true for speed squats, which are only done for doubles. The confusion here is that L.S. has written many articles on Prelipin’s chart advocating its use, but he doesn’t really seem to stick by it. I would appreciate some clarity on this from someone with a better understanding. Thanks in advance.
Speed pulls for singles are done right after speed squats as your supplemental lift, combine the double with the added single and you get the rep range you are looking for. Unless you are plateaued, just lift, get stronger, don’t overthink it.
They also do speed work on DE squat day and work up to 85% for doubles and singles by adding band tension. I really don’t like the word “speed” personally. It’s more like “be explosive”. Doesn’t matter the %. The chart is a guide which is the reason for the rep/%/volume range being so broad.
I agree w/ many pertaining to WS, unless you train there, you really don’t know what’s going on. They train using three methods and how they incorporate those methods is all dependent upon the individual lifter. And remember, Prilepin’s chart was used to evaluate Olympic lifters w/ no eccentric motion. They measured speed by the concentric, which is why I never understood doing doubles and triples for speed. Why not do multiple sets of heavier singles for bar speed/explosive strength?
I love Prilepin’s chart. I do believe it is a guide, but I think that it provides a great base for how to structure training. This is the thing: I don’t think it is productive to do specific speed work and specific maximal effort. More importantly, I don’t think that these training principles would suit the exercise rotation used in westside. The whole basis for the tables were by following lifters and seeing what type of training volume/intensity produced optimal results. It’s all about building technical proficiency. With this in mind, doing things like 80% 5x3 you can train in a reasonable intensity range (not maximal, but not too light) while still maintaining ideal form and speed. No matter how strong/fast you are, a true maximal lift is never as fast as a 50% speed single so perhaps it’s more productive to go fast with heavier weights while maintaining ideal form. More importantly, IMHO, the true idea of being strong is in being efficient at a lift.
So, I believe in keeping it really simple. Train the main lifts, and by avoiding the 90+% range, you can train them more often and with more volume. This is where Prilepin comes in!
The logic behind singles for deadlifts is that they are the only powerlift that have a concentric motion before the eccentric phase. On both the squat and the bench you must lower the weight first, which builds tension in your body to reverse the weight. The idea is that you’re learning to build that tension in your body without the eccentric phase of the pull. I’m not saying you have to buy into the philosophy I’m just explaining the reasoning behind it.
With regards to the differences between Prilepin’s chart and what Louie writes in his articles… like other’s have said Prilepin’s chart was based on Olympic lifts. Through experimentation Louie has come up with (what he believes) is an analogous version for the powerlifts which are to be implemented on the dynamic effort day. The parameters for this day continues to change. Some guys work up heavy on this day. Some avoid the powerlifts completely and just do accessory work. Some of them don’t do DE Upper and instead just train 3 days a week.
The articles that Louie writes are the vanilla version of a template.
Thanks, this helped. I think i will just stick to the chart for ME days then. With that said, do you think there is any use in speed pulling for triples? I was thinking of doing a 3 week wave, 8x3, 10x2, and then 12 singles the last week (higher percentage each week). Thanks for the advice.
That’s a lot of volume to put in if you’re doing DE squats too. You’ll have to take something else away to handle it more likely. At least if you don’t already have an insane work capacity.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
That’s a lot of volume to put in if you’re doing DE squats too. You’ll have to take something else away to handle it more likely. At least if you don’t already have an insane work capacity. [/quote]
20-24 reps at 50% should hardly put a dent in your work capacity. Since this thread started as a discussion on prilipens chart, 24 reps at 50% achieves a score of 0.48 in the Intensity/Number of lifts performed formula in this article http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/files/prelipins.pdf.
For reference sake a score below 0.4 is too few reps and not enough simulus.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
That’s a lot of volume to put in if you’re doing DE squats too. You’ll have to take something else away to handle it more likely. At least if you don’t already have an insane work capacity. [/quote]
20-24 reps at 50% should hardly put a dent in your work capacity. Since this thread started as a discussion on prilipens chart, 24 reps at 50% achieves a score of 0.48 in the Intensity/Number of lifts performed formula in this article http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/files/prelipins.pdf.
For reference sake a score below 0.4 is too few reps and not enough simulus.
[/quote]
DE work at 50% weight is done with an added 25% accommodating resistance. Using straight weight it is done in the 70-85% range. Much more taxing than just 50%.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
That’s a lot of volume to put in if you’re doing DE squats too. You’ll have to take something else away to handle it more likely. At least if you don’t already have an insane work capacity. [/quote]
20-24 reps at 50% should hardly put a dent in your work capacity. Since this thread started as a discussion on prilipens chart, 24 reps at 50% achieves a score of 0.48 in the Intensity/Number of lifts performed formula in this article http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/files/prelipins.pdf.
For reference sake a score below 0.4 is too few reps and not enough simulus.
[/quote]
DE work at 50% weight is done with an added 25% accommodating resistance. Using straight weight it is done in the 70-85% range. Much more taxing than just 50%.
[/quote]
This totally. When you see 50%, remember that’s 50% of a contest max in full multiply gear for a free squat. When they do the DE work, there on a box that kills 10-15% of that max, and they have the straps down, and they’re not psyched up or peaked for the meet. Also keep in mind the low rest intervals used. So it’s actually really tough work they’re doing. I really don’t even think of it as ‘speed’ but more of CAT with moderate weight. So it’s not moving light weight really fast, but moving moderate loads as fast as possible which takes maximal power each and every rep.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
That’s a lot of volume to put in if you’re doing DE squats too. You’ll have to take something else away to handle it more likely. At least if you don’t already have an insane work capacity. [/quote]
20-24 reps at 50% should hardly put a dent in your work capacity. Since this thread started as a discussion on prilipens chart, 24 reps at 50% achieves a score of 0.48 in the Intensity/Number of lifts performed formula in this article http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/files/prelipins.pdf.
For reference sake a score below 0.4 is too few reps and not enough simulus.
[/quote]
DE work at 50% weight is done with an added 25% accommodating resistance. Using straight weight it is done in the 70-85% range. Much more taxing than just 50%.
[/quote]
This totally. When you see 50%, remember that’s 50% of a contest max in full multiply gear for a free squat. When they do the DE work, there on a box that kills 10-15% of that max, and they have the straps down, and they’re not psyched up or peaked for the meet. Also keep in mind the low rest intervals used. So it’s actually really tough work they’re doing. I really don’t even think of it as ‘speed’ but more of CAT with moderate weight. So it’s not moving light weight really fast, but moving moderate loads as fast as possible which takes maximal power each and every rep. [/quote]
Without turning this into a westside debate. This has literally zero correlation to prilipens recommendations.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
My point is that the Prelipin’s score is higher than you thought. That’s how it ties in. [/quote]
But what I’m saying is attempting to calculate a prilipens score off of a non real number isn’t worth calculating. Again avoiding the westside debate, who’s to say what poundage each individual lifter gets from a multiply suit and breifs and wraps vs they’re raw number or they’re briefs no wraps number for that matter. Then you start trying to calculate poundage at the top and bottom of a lift due to accommodating resistance and prilipen’s calculations are completely worthless anyways.
I’ll agree there. I guess you could say Louie’s recommendations are very loosely based off of the table.
For the OP,when I read the book of methods, Louie does say he chose those rep ranges because they mimic the same amount of time a comp. lift takes. As was said earlier, he based his percentages off of Prilepin’s tables but not necessarily strictly adheres to it. The exception is deadlift because Louie believes in only doing one rep since there isn’t an eccentric in competition.
At this point I’m just speculating but here’s some other ideas to throw out there as far as the reasoning goes. There’s also a lot of volume on supplementary and accessory exercises in Westside compared to a lot of other programs which might help account for the lower volume. Also, the deadlift a pretty stressful lift hence the lower volume and all muscles for dl’ing have already been worked my box squatting anyway. It’s just a matter of grooving the movement and building speed off the ground.
[quote]Fletch1986 wrote:
I’ll agree there. I guess you could say Louie’s recommendations are very loosely based off of the table.
For the OP,when I read the book of methods, Louie does say he chose those rep ranges because they mimic the same amount of time a comp. lift takes. As was said earlier, he based his percentages off of Prilepin’s tables but not necessarily strictly adheres to it. The exception is deadlift because Louie believes in only doing one rep since there isn’t an eccentric in competition.
At this point I’m just speculating but here’s some other ideas to throw out there as far as the reasoning goes. There’s also a lot of volume on supplementary and accessory exercises in Westside compared to a lot of other programs which might help account for the lower volume. Also, the deadlift a pretty stressful lift hence the lower volume and all muscles for dl’ing have already been worked my box squatting anyway. It’s just a matter of grooving the movement and building speed off the ground. [/quote]
I guess what I was getting at is if the OP is planning on following westside style programming it’d be better to follow “westside” principles and save prilipens stuff for a more volume/frequency based program as it was intended. Pretty much what you eluded to here.
I guess what I was getting at is if the OP is planning on following westside style programming it’d be better to follow “westside” principles and save prilipens stuff for a more volume/frequency based program as it was intended. Pretty much what you eluded to here.[/quote]
You tend to stay much more within prelipen’s range when you use the conjugate method raw. I do everything now with straight weight unless I am sticking towards the top, and that happens to be mostly on bench, occasionally deadlift, but rare on both lifts. With both though I find that if I am explosive out of the bottom it is less and less of a problem.
I am running straight weight 70-80% during accumulation on DE days, and 75-85% during intensification. During accumulation you are doing more sets/reps than what is suggested within prelipin’s table due to the added volume, but then again you are trying to accrue muscle mass more then just flat out strength (GPP.) Once you hit intensification running anywhere from 70-85%, you are pretty much right in that groove with the decrease in volume (SSP.)
Found this article about Westside and Prilepin on Elitefts.
I used the chart AS WRITTEN way back in the middle 1990’s as a 181 in the ADFPA. First article I had seen did not cover doubles for the squat, singles for DL. Think it may have been in Iron Man Magazine in the early '70s(?) All before the series of “no…wait a minute” updates and reformulations from WS. Not at all picking on WS, the results are unmistakable, just that every time I turned around a new truth had been found.
I used it for the deadlift and did the two weeks of triples, then the doubles, etc. I also used it for the squat. For all the sets first 2 weeks, I tried to start each set when the second hand hit the 12, that is, 1 set per minute. For weeks 4 and 5, I’d do 1 - 1.5 minutes BETWEEN sets. I’d pull each rep like I was trying to permanently bend the bar.
My deadlift workout ended up being a 12-15 minute total gym effort each Friday. Didn’t do any assistance. Figured squats on Monday were good assistance for the deads, me having a rather narrow stance. Also a 12-15 minute workout, warm-ups included.
Anyway, in less than 2 years I went from a 550 deadlift to a 630 meet, 635 gym lift, belt and suit. Could double 600 with just a belt, triple 575 no belt/no suit. Remember I was a 181, and note that I was drug tested and in my mid-late 30s.
Maybe singles for deads and doubles for squat reflect some level of “truth”. I dunno. All I know is that pulling deads for triples, 8 sets in 8 minutes, made me stupid strong in the deadlift.