Anyone Else Around Here Use Heavy Duty?

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

I like that term “blast” set. That’s kinda what you do with Heavy Duty.
[/quote]

That was my point. Basically most people train “Heavy Duty” now, weather they know it or not.[/quote]

Most people are not spending 2 days per week in the gym. Not people taking bodybuilding seriously, at least. Yates didnt do that and Mentzer didnt build his physique doing that either. [/quote]

Actually, he did. He was trained mainly by Arthur Jones, inventor of Nautilus, who espoused brief, infrequent to-failure training.

And incidentally, Dorian Yates was trained by Mike Mentzer and developed an Olympia-winning physique.

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

I like that term “blast” set. That’s kinda what you do with Heavy Duty.
[/quote]

That was my point. Basically most people train “Heavy Duty” now, weather they know it or not.[/quote]

Most people are not spending 2 days per week in the gym. Not people taking bodybuilding seriously, at least. Yates didnt do that and Mentzer didnt build his physique doing that either. [/quote]

Actually, he did. He was trained mainly by Arthur Jones, inventor of Nautilus, who espoused brief, infrequent to-failure training.

And incidentally, Dorian Yates was trained by Mike Mentzer and developed an Olympia-winning physique.[/quote]

No he didn’t. Mike Mentzer describes his training extensively in his books, and he trained almost every day like everyone else at the time. He only adopted his low frequency approach after he had built his physique.

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

I like that term “blast” set. That’s kinda what you do with Heavy Duty.
[/quote]

That was my point. Basically most people train “Heavy Duty” now, weather they know it or not.[/quote]

Most people are not spending 2 days per week in the gym. Not people taking bodybuilding seriously, at least. Yates didnt do that and Mentzer didnt build his physique doing that either. [/quote]

Actually, he did. He was trained mainly by Arthur Jones, inventor of Nautilus, who espoused brief, infrequent to-failure training.

And incidentally, Dorian Yates was trained by Mike Mentzer and developed an Olympia-winning physique.[/quote]

So youre saying that as a 20 year old to the time he was stepping on stage and competeing with as a pro he went to the gym to train once every 4 days? Mentzer I’m talking about. Is that how he built his physique to IFBB pro size and quality?

Saying that Dorian was trained by Mentzer doesnt mean anything in this situation. I’ve watched Blood and Guts, a few times actually. That video was filmed at the height of his lifting career. He was in the gym 5 or 6 times the week it was filmed. That video was/is famous for being the first authentic training video and not some scripted info-tainment workout nonsense. Of course his splits changed over the years but you will never be able to say and prove that Yates lifted weights 2 times per week, in season or off season.

[quote]Heracles_rocks wrote:
Here’s an excerpt pertaining to HIT training. The paragraph that starts off with DR Fred Hatfield relates to why someone will need a long time to recover(second paragraph from bottom).

[quote]
Dr. Fred Hatfield commented best on HIT style training when he compared it to contest performance. I remember him stating that when Hit was performed right, it could take a person weeks to recover from it. Just think about it. If youâ??ve ever competed in a tournament, or a power lifting event. Everything you are, and everything youâ??ve trained for comes down to a few short moments, in which you must pore out your very being into the actions you take. This can drain you mentally, physically, as well as emotionally. A true Dorian style workout, will give you butterflies in anticipation of the training session, in which you will place your body underneath relentless agony! Indeed, there are few who can carry such a workout, out correctly.[/quote][/quote]

Without “being a dick”, I call bullshit on that. If it took me weeks to recover from a session, I would not assume that was a good thing. In fact i would be certain to not repeat it, I mean does it really sound like a good idea? I highly doubt it is even possible to hammer yourself hard enough for that to happen, unless you are just being stupid (way undereating, no/little sleep, ridiculous exercises/amount/etc) or completely sedentary/untrained.

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

I like that term “blast” set. That’s kinda what you do with Heavy Duty.
[/quote]

That was my point. Basically most people train “Heavy Duty” now, weather they know it or not.[/quote]

Most people are not spending 2 days per week in the gym. Not people taking bodybuilding seriously, at least. Yates didnt do that and Mentzer didnt build his physique doing that either. [/quote]

Good point, I should have been more clear. What I took from Mentzer’s ideas was the extreme intensity of one or two sets, not the extreme infrequency.

Regarding the comment that Mentzer trained Yates. I don’t remember that. What I remember from back in the early 90’s when I read those rags is that Yates respected Mentzers thoughts on training not that he was trained by him.

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

I like that term “blast” set. That’s kinda what you do with Heavy Duty.
[/quote]

That was my point. Basically most people train “Heavy Duty” now, weather they know it or not.[/quote]

Most people are not spending 2 days per week in the gym. Not people taking bodybuilding seriously, at least. Yates didnt do that and Mentzer didnt build his physique doing that either. [/quote]

Actually, he did. He was trained mainly by Arthur Jones, inventor of Nautilus, who espoused brief, infrequent to-failure training.

And incidentally, Dorian Yates was trained by Mike Mentzer and developed an Olympia-winning physique.[/quote]

Because Kai Greene did a few sessions with Charles Glass, if Kai wins the olympia does that mean it’s all because of Charles?

Also Dorian himself has said he wasn’t trained by anyone (though he may have picked up a few things from people), the sport appealed to him because of the individuality - it was all down to him.

I always think it’s interesting that people believe the idea of diminishing returns does not apply to bodybuilding/building muscle. Just because you absolutely destroy a muscle does not mean it will grow super fast, or any faster that it normally would if reduced the volume…it just means you have to wait longer before it has potential to grow again.

So really, why would any intelligent person absolutely destroy the muscle to the point where you don’t train it for a few weeks, when I can stimulate my muscle enough so that it will grow and I can hit it 2x/week? Seems to me like I would have much more growth over time because I am breaking down/building up each muscle several times a week as opposed to twice a month or w/e this program says.

Once again I’d say lets resort to physique pics, but I know that will never happen so I guess this thread dies.

[quote]Doghouse Reilly wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

I like that term “blast” set. That’s kinda what you do with Heavy Duty.
[/quote]

That was my point. Basically most people train “Heavy Duty” now, weather they know it or not.[/quote]

Most people are not spending 2 days per week in the gym. Not people taking bodybuilding seriously, at least. Yates didnt do that and Mentzer didnt build his physique doing that either. [/quote]

Actually, he did. He was trained mainly by Arthur Jones, inventor of Nautilus, who espoused brief, infrequent to-failure training.

And incidentally, Dorian Yates was trained by Mike Mentzer and developed an Olympia-winning physique.[/quote]

No he didn’t. Mike Mentzer describes his training extensively in his books, and he trained almost every day like everyone else at the time. He only adopted his low frequency approach after he had built his physique.[/quote]

Actualy now that I think of it, I remember reading that as well. You’re absolutely right.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
I always think it’s interesting that people believe the idea of diminishing returns does not apply to bodybuilding/building muscle. Just because you absolutely destroy a muscle does not mean it will grow super fast, or any faster that it normally would if reduced the volume…it just means you have to wait longer before it has potential to grow again.

So really, why would any intelligent person absolutely destroy the muscle to the point where you don’t train it for a few weeks, when I can stimulate my muscle enough so that it will grow and I can hit it 2x/week? Seems to me like I would have much more growth over time because I am breaking down/building up each muscle several times a week as opposed to twice a month or w/e this program says.

Once again I’d say lets resort to physique pics, but I know that will never happen so I guess this thread dies.[/quote]

x2 on everything you wrote there.

I’m not big, so my opinion doesn’t mean much, but I have been making good gains (at least I think so) and the best of em have been from hitting a muscle twice a week with a bit less volume. I have tried training “all out” and completely trashing a muscle until air felt heavy and I could still train about 4 days later. Also my best strength gains have come from hitting a muscle twice a week and size follows strength IMO.

Oklahoma - does it really have you training a different muscle group every 4-7 days with no other weight training done in between? or is it the same muscle after 4-7 days? If its the former then well I think its the most retarded thing I have ever heard of. If you have really made great gains with it then well I’d like to see some pics. If you’re comfortable betting that you make better gains with it than some of the people here then you should step up to the plate and produce some pics man.

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

I like that term “blast” set. That’s kinda what you do with Heavy Duty.
[/quote]

That was my point. Basically most people train “Heavy Duty” now, weather they know it or not.[/quote]

No they don’t.

Most serious gym rats and bodybuilders lift weights 3 to 6 times per week. HD2 called for ONE session every 4 to 7 days. At the upper end, that’s ONE session PER WEEK.

He didn’t advocate the popular flat pyramid/ramp-up scheme. He recommended a few light warmup sets and one set to failure and a lot of pre-exhaust.

Does the following look like a popular, modern-day leg workout?

  1. Leg extension
  2. Squat
  3. Leg curl
  4. Calf raise…

… all for ONE set.

How about this schedule?

Day 1: Chest, shoulders, tris
Day 2: Rest
Day 3: Rest
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: Back, bis
Day 6: Rest
Day 7: Rest
Day 8: Rest
Day 9: Legs
Day 10: You know the drill from here…

A great way to get in shape.

[quote]waylanderxx wrote:
I always think it’s interesting that people believe the idea of diminishing returns does not apply to bodybuilding/building muscle. Just because you absolutely destroy a muscle does not mean it will grow super fast, or any faster that it normally would if reduced the volume…it just means you have to wait longer before it has potential to grow again.

So really, why would any intelligent person absolutely destroy the muscle to the point where you don’t train it for a few weeks, when I can stimulate my muscle enough so that it will grow and I can hit it 2x/week? Seems to me like I would have much more growth over time because I am breaking down/building up each muscle several times a week as opposed to twice a month or w/e this program says.

Once again I’d say lets resort to physique pics, but I know that will never happen so I guess this thread dies.[/quote]

Bingo.

It is plain as day to see what works and what doesn’t today seeing as every phone on the planet has a camera.

These debates would end as quickly as they start if they had to back up all of this talk with their actual VISIBLE progress.

The dumbest thing someone could do, and also the best way to get injured, is to train the way these people believe.

Who is more likely to adapt to a very strenuous training routine…the guy training three times a month or the guy working his ass off 5 times a week?

We need a flashing sign at the top of the forum that reads “Pics or shut the fuck up”.

Dorian was NOT trained by Mentzer. Go check Dorian’s interview on THIS SITE in which he clears up this silly story.

Sharing THREE workouts at Gold’s in a lifetime is NOT personal training!

Look at Dorian’s programs in his books. Watch his videos. His programs look nothing like Mentzer’s HD, in particular that he didn’t become a Mr. Olympia by performing one exercise for one set per muscle group and attending the gym once every 4 to 7 days. Actually, he was in the gym 4 to 6 days per week for most of his career.

(Here’s where all the guys who like to train less will interject, “But… but… he trained 3 days per week when he started.” Yeah, he did; and that was for one and a half years in a fifteen year career! He was INFLUENCED by Ellington Darden, Arthur Jones, and Mike Mentzer. He wasn’t trained by any of them, nor did his programs look anything like what these guys recommended!)

Dorian trained pretty much like everyone else, except that he only counted his last set, a true all-out set, a work set and wasn’t into farting around a gym and performing half ass sets in silly exercises.

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

[quote]Doghouse Reilly wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

I like that term “blast” set. That’s kinda what you do with Heavy Duty.
[/quote]

That was my point. Basically most people train “Heavy Duty” now, weather they know it or not.[/quote]

Most people are not spending 2 days per week in the gym. Not people taking bodybuilding seriously, at least. Yates didnt do that and Mentzer didnt build his physique doing that either. [/quote]

Actually, he did. He was trained mainly by Arthur Jones, inventor of Nautilus, who espoused brief, infrequent to-failure training.

And incidentally, Dorian Yates was trained by Mike Mentzer and developed an Olympia-winning physique.[/quote]

No he didn’t. Mike Mentzer describes his training extensively in his books, and he trained almost every day like everyone else at the time. He only adopted his low frequency approach after he had built his physique.[/quote]

Actualy now that I think of it, I remember reading that as well. You’re absolutely right.[/quote]

LOL!!!

The point is, you had to think about it. Most of us have been doing this long enough, and had enough debates with people just like you, to KNOW facts like that without making the mistake you did.

Your training plans sound like crap.

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

I like that term “blast” set. That’s kinda what you do with Heavy Duty.
[/quote]

That was my point. Basically most people train “Heavy Duty” now, weather they know it or not.[/quote]

No they don’t.

Most serious gym rats and bodybuilders lift weights 3 to 6 times per week. HD2 called for ONE session every 4 to 7 days. At the upper end, that’s ONE session PER WEEK.

He didn’t advocate the popular flat pyramid/ramp-up scheme. He recommended a few light warmup sets and one set to failure and a lot of pre-exhaust.

Does the following look like a popular, modern-day leg workout?

  1. Leg extension
  2. Squat
  3. Leg curl
  4. Calf raise…

… all for ONE set.

How about this schedule?

Day 1: Chest, shoulders, tris
Day 2: Rest
Day 3: Rest
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: Back, bis
Day 6: Rest
Day 7: Rest
Day 8: Rest
Day 9: Legs
Day 10: You know the drill from here…

A great way to get in shape. [/quote]

I am shocked to my fucking core that anyone would do this and expect or even claim to make great gains (or any for that matter).

[quote]tokyopop wrote:

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

I like that term “blast” set. That’s kinda what you do with Heavy Duty.
[/quote]

That was my point. Basically most people train “Heavy Duty” now, weather they know it or not.[/quote]

No they don’t.

Most serious gym rats and bodybuilders lift weights 3 to 6 times per week. HD2 called for ONE session every 4 to 7 days. At the upper end, that’s ONE session PER WEEK.

He didn’t advocate the popular flat pyramid/ramp-up scheme. He recommended a few light warmup sets and one set to failure and a lot of pre-exhaust.

Does the following look like a popular, modern-day leg workout?

  1. Leg extension
  2. Squat
  3. Leg curl
  4. Calf raise…

… all for ONE set.

How about this schedule?

Day 1: Chest, shoulders, tris
Day 2: Rest
Day 3: Rest
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: Back, bis
Day 6: Rest
Day 7: Rest
Day 8: Rest
Day 9: Legs
Day 10: You know the drill from here…

A great way to get in shape. [/quote]

I am shocked to my fucking core that anyone would do this and expect or even claim to make great gains (or any for that matter).
[/quote]

It’s not even recommended for REGULAR people seeking weight control and HEALTH with NO aspirations of getting exceptionally strong, fit, or big. It’s shown in so many public health studies that those who are happiest with their bodies get 5 or more hours of EXERCISE (not just lifting like us gym rats) per week. Even the American Heart Association, who once had the flimsy shit guidelines of half hour of exercises, three times per week, changed it to 5 or more hours per week and say, “If you can do more, do so.”

I like what JB has said for along time. Exercise is like a drug. A little can be good, too much can be bad, and the OPTIMAL amount is great! The key is to do as much as possible while eating as much as possible without getting fat.

The overtraining thing is out of fucking hand, and many haven’t considered what makes them so overworked from a small amount of exercise (eg, adding too much too fast, lack of sleep, lack of proper nutrition). That’s not overtraining; that’s not taking the proper measures to work out the correct amount.

Others simply can’t accept that they don’t have or didn’t pick a life in which they could become a successful bodybuilder (60+ hours per week of work, erratic schedules, lack of access or money for food, school work, kids, all kinds of other obligations) and then blame TRADITIONAL bodybuilding practices for being only reserved for genetic freaks and drug users.

Wow. Well, I guess, before I get punked in the forums, I might as well tell everyone here that I plan to decline Mr. OK Hoss’ competition. On a more comical note, check out the PM he sent me:

Whew! Anyone wanna begin with how retarded this sounds?

This is ALMOST as good as when that guy called out fightinIrish to fight “somewhere around ohio”.

That was awesome.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

[quote]Doghouse Reilly wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

[quote]BONEZ217 wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

I like that term “blast” set. That’s kinda what you do with Heavy Duty.
[/quote]

That was my point. Basically most people train “Heavy Duty” now, weather they know it or not.[/quote]

Most people are not spending 2 days per week in the gym. Not people taking bodybuilding seriously, at least. Yates didnt do that and Mentzer didnt build his physique doing that either. [/quote]

Actually, he did. He was trained mainly by Arthur Jones, inventor of Nautilus, who espoused brief, infrequent to-failure training.

And incidentally, Dorian Yates was trained by Mike Mentzer and developed an Olympia-winning physique.[/quote]

No he didn’t. Mike Mentzer describes his training extensively in his books, and he trained almost every day like everyone else at the time. He only adopted his low frequency approach after he had built his physique.[/quote]

Actualy now that I think of it, I remember reading that as well. You’re absolutely right.[/quote]

LOL!!!

The point is, you had to think about it. Most of us have been doing this long enough, and had enough debates with people just like you, to KNOW facts like that without making the mistake you did.

Your training plans sound like crap.[/quote]

That, and the famous asinine story of Dorian being personally trained by Mentzer - which did NOT happen.

Sharing THREE workouts together isn’t personal training.

Kind of the same as Poliquin listing Milos Sarcev as a client because they shared a few workouts together.

[quote]tokyopop wrote:

[quote]Bricknyce wrote:

[quote]on edge wrote:

[quote]OklahomaHoss wrote:

I like that term “blast” set. That’s kinda what you do with Heavy Duty.
[/quote]

That was my point. Basically most people train “Heavy Duty” now, weather they know it or not.[/quote]

No they don’t.

Most serious gym rats and bodybuilders lift weights 3 to 6 times per week. HD2 called for ONE session every 4 to 7 days. At the upper end, that’s ONE session PER WEEK.

He didn’t advocate the popular flat pyramid/ramp-up scheme. He recommended a few light warmup sets and one set to failure and a lot of pre-exhaust.

Does the following look like a popular, modern-day leg workout?

  1. Leg extension
  2. Squat
  3. Leg curl
  4. Calf raise…

… all for ONE set.

How about this schedule?

Day 1: Chest, shoulders, tris
Day 2: Rest
Day 3: Rest
Day 4: Rest
Day 5: Back, bis
Day 6: Rest
Day 7: Rest
Day 8: Rest
Day 9: Legs
Day 10: You know the drill from here…

A great way to get in shape. [/quote]

I am shocked to my fucking core that anyone would do this and expect or even claim to make great gains (or any for that matter).
[/quote]

And just imagine what this looks like when someone, according to Mentzer, gets so strong that he should be lifting once every 7 days.

Can you fucking imagine this?

Day 1: Chest, shoulders, tris
Day 2, 3, 4, 5 , and 6: Rest
Day 7: Back, bis
Day 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13: Rest
Day 14: Legs…

… cycle starts over.

UN-FUCKING-REAL that people even entertain this, from performance, body composition, and HEALTH standpoints.

He even had an ABBREVIATED routine for those who can’t recover from the three-workout split above. I don’t remember what it was but it was two workouts spaced out by 6 days in between.
That’s four lifting sessions per MONTH!

One workout was something like:
Deadlift
Overhead press
Lat pulldown

Can’t remember in full, but it was ridiculous. I urge you to get the book for free somehow to see just how crazy it is. Half the damn book was about quasi-psychology and -philosophy with a heavy emphasis on the teachings of Ayn Rand. Why this guy wished to talk about this shit in a lifting book is beyond me!

My friend gave me the book 10 years ago and I called up Mentzer’s office number for fun. He answered. I was young still and I myself almost was fooled into following those training guidelines. So I innocently asked him, “Mr. Mentzer, what about stretching?” He replied, “Just do some toe touches, a warmup set or two. You don’t need to be a fucking contortionist.” (Almost exact words as best as I can remember them.)

I asked, “You don’t include nutrition info either. What about that? I mean, don’t we need 5 or 6 meals per day.” He replied, “Oh god, you don’t need that. Just have three meals and a snack or two and you’ll be fine.” (Actually this isn’t bad advice now that I think of it, but this guy was wacked out by this point in his life.)

With this criticism of his book and what he used to write about and say, I was very sad when I learned he and Ray passed away. I still think he was one of the best bodybuilders of all time and from what I’ve read and heard, just a man that went the wrong way at some point in his life.