Anyone a Chiropractor or PT?

I recently read the interview with Dr. Leahy the ART inventor. This got me thinking about Chiropractic as a career, my other choice would be Physical Therapy.

PT would be an easy transition by way of schooling because i live in OKC and OU has a a Doctor of PT program. Going to chiro school would mean a move out of state, but potentially more autonomy in terms of private practice and it seems as though healing practices are less limited with this field.

I have an engineering degree and know i’d have to take remedial course work to get into either program, but i’m willing to do it because engineering just isn’t my passion. Great to find that out after busting my ass for four years in school and two at work.

I would love any comments on either career choice, other than the Bureau of Labor Statistics crap I’ve been reading lately…

I am no expert on either. I received many years of treatment from a chiropractor whom I still believe to be very knowledgeable and sincere. Nonetheless, I think it might be better to pursue an education and career as a Physical Therapist:

http://www.rebuildyourback.com/chiropractic/ligaments.php

http://www.rebuildyourback.com/chiropractic/curriculum.php

http://chirotalk.proboards3.com/index.cgi

While I am biased (I am halfway into my chiropractic program) I will be as forthright as possible. I have a B.S. in exercise science, I am a CSCS, I am also an ACSM-HFI.

I pursued chiropractic as an extension of my previous education in that I want to be preventative instead of treating symptoms. I looked at my options, med school, PT, chiropractic, and Osteopathic. I felt chiropractic was the best choice in what it offered to me. I am very happy with my decision and I have several friends who are in each of the other programs that graduated with the same degree as I do and they are all happy with their choices as well. I will not lie there is a large amount of bullshit that occurs at my school but that is the same with any other.

In regards to the curriculum, it is rigorous unlike what the links in the previous posts suggest. I have taken the same gross anatomy as the PT students and the gross anatomy here and it is much more extensive here. So are the neuroscience and nutrition related courses.

Just to comment on the previous links, rebuild your back is written by an “investigative journalist” who has no scientific background which he admits and is peddling his book on how to rebuild your back for “donations” to his site. As for chiriotalk there will always be people who are not happy with what they do, there are some wacky chiros out there but you can find those kind of people throughout every profession including medicine. I do not know if this helps but I am already very satisfied with my career choice.

I am a chiropractic student currently. Graduated undergrad with the exercise science thing. I am extremely excited to be a chiropractor. My best advice to you would be to go to one of the major visit days at a chiropractic school. Don’t know if that’s an option for you. Feel free to PM me with anything if you want to.

PT would probably be a good career but I don’t know much about it.

And I totally agree that the rebuild you back links posted above are total crap. But I’m sure you could tell that, if not then I can go into detail for you.

Hi! I am a moderator for Chirotalk and I stumbled onto this site. It sounds like a few chiro students have given you their opinion and now I will give you mine. I am not here to start a fight with anyone.

Everyday that passes I wish I had never gone to chiropractic school. However, do to the other members here and the chiro supporters I will give you what others have written on our website.

You will see our website is not biased but a forum where people who leave the chiro profession gather to help out other chiros who are leaving the field. Please don’t think you are better then the people on the chirotalk website.

We have all successfully moved onto different careers as a BSN, Pharmisist, ect… I work for a tissue bank and soon the organ procurement organization for my state.

mds728
Well it has been a week since closing and I feel ok. Looking back I feel as a chiro I had something to offer, but in reality there were just too many chiros in my area, too much scamming going on by those chiros, and a hostile insurance environment.

All those coupled up to make it impossible to make an honest living. Hopefully new doors will open up for a decent future. I will keep hoping. Thanks to everyone for their support, I really appreciate it.

Nemo-
I deeply sympathize with your plight. I went bankrupt- lost everything… I don’t even want to talk about the toll this took on my relationships, except to say I faced a humiliation I never experienced before.

There were days when I didn’t know how I would eat or put gas in my car…and couldn’t get hired anywhere because this profession left me without significant job skills. I was ready to go to the fast food markets at the age of 40.

dcrn2be-
In 10 years my $76,000 chiro debt has grown to $307,000 payoff.
Luckily I have an income contingent loan and if I am able to pay over $1200 a month for the next 15 years, I can look forward to the loan being “forgiven” after 25 years in payback and all I have to come up with is $125,000 for the IRS that year to cover the amount forgiven (will be over $400,000 by then).

A great 65 year old retirement gift. Chiropractic is a useless profession in that all your training translates to nothing else if your practice is not successful. I am returning to school at age 50 so I can finally save something for retirement.

After all that money I didn’t even end up with a bachelors degree and none of my private chiropractic training was accepted by my college in California. Only the classes taken at the Community College level. Has anyone else experienced the reverse “gift” of compound interest?

disgruntleddoc
I just received notice myself…I’m at 239,000…but are in deferrment due to going back to school

I was also a Life student during the late 90’s and early 2000’s. Unfortunately transferred to TCC and found the same crap…most of my loans though originated at Life…please clear up something for me…I can remember people in my class who were taking the exact same classes as me and borrwoing the exact same amount of money that I was borrowing…

BUT when it came to going to get our checks at financial aid from that fat so-called DC turned Fin Aid Director (you remember he used to teach MedTerm before that), we all would get different amounts…some varying by $300 -500…each and every quarter…besides that…what recourse do I have…I have returned to school (borrowing from parents) to an LPN program …help!!!

Trust me I can go on and on but I have to leave for now.

Here are some more posts and BTW do not take advice from the chiro schools. They are private universities who will tell potential students anything besides the hard facts about the chiro profession( low paying jobs, high competition, inability to get on insurance plans etc…

They will probably concentrate on their new science center or their high scores on the national boards… I hope you get my point.

AllieDC
I am currently involved with the state investigation and am also pursuing a Qui Tam case (Medicare). It seems like a LOT of work, but it also seems worth it.

I have owned my own practice (successfully and ethically), and associated with two practices. I cannot BELIEVE the lack of integrity, morals and outright greed that seem to permeate almost every aspect of our profession! So, I finally got fed up and did something about it. I know it�??s possible to practice with integrity and still make a living. I am doing that right now!

I’ll let you all know how things turn out.

lizziedc2rn
I am a DC working at a $@#$%(* Target. :-/. long story short, my husband was then my boyfriend and he pretty much moved me and my daughter to KS. I have my own practice since 2005, have wonderful patients…yet, they feel better, so I don’t have alot of patients coming in. I am tired, burnt out, worried, broke…

I haven’t been able to pay myself in 5 weeks. My receptionist makes more then me now. I started this clinic with about 4K… so my start up was real low and I have about 500 in the bank…This wasn’t supposed to be this way.

I did work hard in chiro school, couldn’t wait to get out and get a “real” job. Now, I just want a paycheck. So my new plan is to either get my BSN or RN degree and get totally out of this field. In 3 years my loans will be due. I never looked forward to school, I always hated it…but now I am actually looking forward to going to school again.

I want to get out. I want a retirement. I want stability for my family. thanks for reading…and thanks for posting everyone…it really does make a chiro feel better because now me and my sis aren’t the only ones who are doing everything possible to get out.

trapdnchiro
I sit here with my youngest son in my lap and stare at my bank account balance of $50.00, I can�??t help but think of how great chiropractic is. Actually it is worthless!

I�??ve been out of school for almost seven years now. I become less able to support my family every year I�??m in this profession. I found this site after one of my friends left chiro in 2003. I�??ve been a lurker ever since. I feel that it is time for me to finally speak. I can�??t stress enough that what you read on this site is correct. Before I took my first associate position, I read and thought that these guys must be the minority. Now I know that isn�??t true. I�??ve lived it first hand.

I�??ve helped many people in practice over the years, but it still doesn�??t justify the amount it cost to acquire the chiropractic degree. I�??m in my third associateship after closing my private practice in 2005. I make 600/week.

Yes this is correct 600/week, and I see right at 120 patient visits a week. The docs I work for apparently feel that five dollars a patient is a sufficient cut for the work I do. This is the most honest group I was able to find out of 30 or so interviews and such. Notice I say �??most honest�??, the docs I work for still do a few questionable things.

I�??ve learned that most chiropractors will go against there own basic principles of chiropractic to make a buck. Most doctors I�??ve talked to and the five I�??ve worked for always want you, the associate, to put a value to what you do.

Every single one of them gives free exams and x-rays. Not to mention I have yet to work or go to an interview with somebody that actually collects the full deductible or co-pay. Some are still not collecting anything. How can you put value on something that is free?

The reason why I had to close my private practice is because I wasn�??t one of the good old boys that just took what insurance paid him. People would just go to one of the other five chiros in town that did. I couldn�??t compete. I have to say that the insurance companies are making it harder to do NOOPE, but it still happens.

Chiropractic isn�??t worth it! Even if you are smart and want to fight the good fight over natural health care, there are too many other chiropractors out there that make the profession as whole look stupid.

I�??ve met some dumb chiros, I mean really dumb. A lot of the successful chiros I met are just salesmen. They aren�??t really good �??doctors�??. They are just able to talk people into the care at whatever cost, and then they do the monkey dance �??the adjustment.�?? Then as they get more money, they take their sales techniques to the other docs and take money from them.

Why would you want to spend so much money on a degree that requires you to be a salesmen. I wish I hadn�??t. I like helping patients.

Right now I�??m trying to figure out my exit strategy. I�??ve been searching the forum for ideas. I�??m thinking about a PA program. I had considered nursing and then trying to fast track it to NP or something higher.

My understanding is nurses get crapped on a lot. I would love to get my DO or MD, but I�??m 33. Not to keen on the idea of not really starting work again until I�??m 40. I keep kicking myself for not pursuing an MD to begin with. I had the grades, the MCAT scores, and the drive to do it back in the 90�??s.

I want to let those reading this know that I�??m not looking for sympathy. I only hope that you will read this and look a little harder at the decision to become a chiropractor. I would highly advise reading IPFreely�??s stuff on this forum.

suicidal
Tell me, as I am a loser. If I had a PVA ( a Scientology based statistic of how many times a patient comes to one’s office for a treatment) of 40, and if this profession is so great, why did I still go bankrupt?

The average PVA in a Chiropractic office is about 20 so my patients stayed twice as long.

The truth is that Chiros have only ever seen 5-10% of the population. 300 million Americans (legal and illegal) times 10% (I’m being generous) equals 30 million legal and illegal Americans who will ever see a Chiropractor.

Now there are 60,000+ Chiropractors in America. 30 million Americans divided by 60,000 Chiropractors is 500 Americans who will ever go to a Chiropractor for every Chiropractor.

Now, according to what is parroted in the Chiro profession, 2 out of 10 people have Antisocial Personality (Hubbard) so they won’t come back. Now you only have 400 to work with. Another 2 out of 10 have no money (Singer) so now you only have 300 persons that will come to your office and pay you money.

Let’s say that you have excellent salesmanship skills and you keep these 300 people on monthly maintenance. Let’s also assume that you charge $50.00 for your cash maintenance visits and let’s assume that you don’t accept any insurance (which lowers the fee) or Medicare (also lowers the fee.)

You are now left with $15,000.00 per month that these people are giving you. You will have to pay $1,000.00 per month in student loans.

$14,000

You will have to pay $1,000 per month for a $50,000.00 working capital loan.

$13,000

Rent will be about $2,500 per month depending on your contract and size of office.

$10,500

Your CA will have to be paid about $1,750.00 per month, depending on how generous you are (I figured about 10 dollars per hour.)

$8,750

You will also have to pay about $1,750 per month on equipment loans.

$7,000.00

Power, water, trash, malpractice insurance, and various supplies, about $1,000.

$6,000.00

Can you live on that?

Wait, I forgot… how are these 300 people supposed to find you with another 50 other Quackprakters in your town, especially since you are the new guy/girl?

Another $3,000.00 per month for advertising/marketing. Not to mention that you have to buy a gizmo so you have a gimmick. A Subluxation Station or some other sEMG quack device will run you about $500.00 per month.

Not to mention that you have to take up your evenings, lunch time, and weekends either harassing the owners/managers of local businesses or whoring yourself in said businesses to scare up some patients.

Can you live on $2,500-$3,000 per month? I bet you make that giving massages. Why would you take up a house payment with no house to live in? Many older houses cost about $120,000-$150,000.

Or, you can go into practice as an associate, make $3,000.00 per month while chasing the big brass ring of that bonus the con man promised you that you’ll never get. Oh yeah, the 3 grand per month is what you make BEFORE you have to pay the $1000 per month to pay back the student loan.

Why don’t you go into real estate and make better money while using salesmanship and actually help people. People need houses, they don’t need their fictitious lesions cracked.

I initially considered pursuing chiropractic as well but decided on PT (program starts in the fall) for the following reasons:

-better job security w/PT
-fewer quacks
-the Chiro schools near me focus on Chiropractic Philosophy (subluxation theory, Innate intelligence, etc.) as opposed to evidence based practice. Personally I find the subluxation theory to be bullshit.

A chiro in my wife’s family flat out told me to NOT do chiropractic because it has become much more difficult to sustain a business (at least in Northern California). He also says that chiros have the highest student loan default rates among health care professionals.

You are a wise man! Good luck!!

I’ll be back to post more later but a couple things that stood out to me here.
Chiropractic is working on becoming more evidence based. Whether true or not I’ve heard it said that chiropractic has evidence for about 15% of what we do. Medicine also has scientific evidence for about 15% of what they do. Why do you think MD’s have to pay so much in malpractic insurance. Chiropractors pay what about 2500 a year in malpractice whereas MD’s pay about 150,000 a year.

Another thing that has stuck out to me in my classes are those who “get” chiropractic and those who don’t. There is a major philosophy aspect to chiropractic just as there is to many things in life. I might even say that over half the people in my class don’t have a life philosophy that lines up very well with chiropractic.

Obviously one of the hard things about the profession is that you have to be book smart, socially smart, business smart, good with your hands, and a good salesman to be really successful. And people have to like you. Most of us aren’t blessed with all those gifts so that does make things difficult. If you’re an awesome adjuster, that’s not going to be enough. Of course we’re not all going to make it. When I look around my school I see a lot of people that I’m wondering how they think they will make it. They do have things to offer but many don’t have enough to offer.

I’ll check out the chiro forum later but these are just a couple of my opinions from reading through these posts.

It is natural to feel the way you do about yourself and others. Everyone thinks they are better then the next person. However, when choosing a profession don’t take giant leaps of faith and don’t bother comparing yourself to your classmates.

This is your life and you and your family will have to live with the decisions you make. Things to consider… horrible job market for chiros, $125,000 in student loans, high deducibles high copays, low public image.

I am only trying to help. If something sounds too good to be true it probably is…

Also, one bad habit you need to stop right now is comparing chiropractic to the medical profession. There is no comparison… chiros can compare themselves to physical therapists not medical doctors.

A physical therapist pays about the same amount for malpractice as a chiro but PT’s work in places like hospitals and clinics. Chiros are self employed with much higher risks.

Good luck and don’t take what I have said personelly. In the end you will make your own decisions. Please do visit our Chirotalk website.

[quote]Michael570 wrote:

-better job security w/PT
-fewer quacks
-the Chiro schools near me focus on Chiropractic Philosophy (subluxation theory, Innate intelligence, etc.) as opposed to evidence based practice. Personally I find the subluxation theory to be bullshit.

[/quote]

These are the reasons why chiropractic never even crossed my mind and I went PT.

For me it was either go the physical therapy route or the medical route. I chose PT because you get more of a hands on blend of science and human contact with your patients. You get to see them progress through their problems. You get to be the one who helps them learn to walk, or eat, or even go take a dump by themselves again.

There certainly are some knowledgeable and well meaning chiros out there, but I have found through research and experience that too many do not follow evidence based practice and believe that manipulations are the end all, cure all for human ailments.

Think about it like this…how many people do you know or have heard that have seen a chiro for the last 5 years? 10 years? They keep going back because those manipulations that they receive are very specific to a certain clinical population, and often times they are not in that population.

They leave the chiro and feel better, but only for a short amount of time, then they need to return. They develop a psychological dependance of the chiro. This leads to a successful patient population for the chiropractor, but does nothing to help the patient.

Here is a new addition…

cerius1
Everyone of the doctors I compent with have 2 fee schedules, waive copays, deductibles, etc…
Do I have to become a dishonest person to make a living or is their a way to remain honest as I see it and make a living
as a quack? I dont believe subluxations are real either. I know when someone is in low back muscle pain and I adjust them they are better so at least I know that because I can see it happen. If I leave the business again I will never be back and that sucks because I would like to be able to pay my 250,000 in debts I have now. I should have filed BK but I am stupid enough to convince myself I can make it.lol. If I could make 4000.00 a month I would be happy. I didnt do this to get rich. I have a previous medical background and my intentions were good and simple. If you can help this I will put you on the Christmas list. No management companies will help and I really do not trust them because their motives are different than mine. I have been through alot man and nearly blew my brains out because I feel like I got screwed by becoming a chiropractor. Its really hard to realize you cant make it in the business unless you have money to start with. I came from humble beginings and worked really hard to be a doc only to be let down by it. Sorry this is written poorly but it reps my mental state now.lol. I have been educated and isolated so long i cant think anymore at all.lol.