On the topic of masturbation: I cannot believe that one should interpret the Bible as saying that one should not “get off” as necessary to promote urological health. As I recall without doing a search on it, aren’t there studies that show a causal relationship to prostrate health with a operating your equipment as it was designed to be operated, i.e. getting off every 72 hours or so? There is not a single other thing in the New Testament that counsels we should do something that would negatively affect our health (again without going to my reference materials, I think this would contradict the whole “body is a temple” idea).
Boston, I was waiting for someone to bring that up, reason being that was my defense a year or so ago when this idea was introduced to me.
I beleive I found something of that effect (regular ejaculating promoting prostate health) in some Men’s mag, but I am sure there are other studies as well. However I have also seen studies that don’t agree with this idea.
W/out research though my guess would be that not passing anything, ie not urinating, would not be beneficial, but I don’t see how passing “semen” vs. urinating are that much different with affects toward the prostate, again just guessing.
I also want to point out that no the Bible does not point out anything about damaging yourself, but there are LOTS of places where it mentions the need for sexual purity (I’ve only posted one of dozens of verses) which as my previous post proved does include mast. and lusting.
Also, who says I’m never going to ejaculate? If I live to 100, don’t ejacualte from say 20 yr. old and get married at 24, 4 years without ejaculating out of 100? Can that truly be that damaging?
This was a quick post I gotta run…
The Bible was written by humans. I wish people would get this. Its no different than any other book that has been written.
I think that you would find most people who are devout Christians to believe in it so much as to not be “Christian” to the people closest to them. My parents are a good example. They search for control, not understanding. When you look at something that was written ages ago and accept it blindly as the truth, you are going to have problems with someone that thinks otherwise. Are they better people than me? Sure. Do they understand more than me? Sure. They are 2x my age and have life experience to back them up.
Stop reading the “gospel” and dispelling all other issues. There is no “proof” that the Bible is the end all any more that voodoo or tarot cards. Anyone that offers proof of these things is attempting to validate their own beliefs. Science is the only true direction, through trial and error. Living your life is science; you hear what everyone else has to say and you find out for yourself. Basic morality is automatic; anything else is learned.
Do I think that science is the end all? No. I think nature at its most basic levels is impossible to understand completely. We are in a fishbowl… we can only understand what we can see. I think the initiator of nature is way beyond the idiotic rantings of human beings. The Creator is way beyond even simple understanding; the understanding comes from truly understand who you are.
Jesus wanted people to know who they were.
Deez and Rep, I’m sorry you feel the way that you do. But there is nothing I can say nor do to make you believe that Jesus Christ is Living Lord and the only avenue for salvation.
If you don’t want to believe, then only God can move you. If ever you want to seek more, don’t hesitate to pm me.
Nonetheless, thanks for the thoughtful discussion. The off-topic boards are finally getting interesting :).
BTW, Agathos knows his faith. Listen to him.
I am posting to the original question. Yes I am a T-man Christian, Roman Catholic to be exact.
Another CHRISTIAN T-MAN here!!!
DeezlDog…None of us Christians just “blindly” accept the Bible as true. Most of us have investigated it thoroughly. In fact…I would not believe anything just on “faith”. There has to be evidence for faith in the scriptures…and there is plenty!! Even Christ did not chastise the blind man for lacking a little faith and needing some reassurance. He said " I believe…strengthen my unbelief". And Jesus did…He made him able to see again!..God is not a god of illogic. He has left the evidence of the truth of His word. The hundreds of prophecies that were prophecied and fullfilled in the Old and New Testament are just ONE sets of evidence! The Bible is not ONE book. It is 66 books by over 40 authors over hundreds of years! Jesus Christ himself testified as to the accuracy of the scripture. The prophecies alone are proof of divine origin and accuracy. Just the prophecies concerning Israel are staggering! There is not ONE prophecy in the Bible that did not come true or has yet to come true.
It was hand written by men…inspired and spoke to from God Himself.
As far as premarital sex…sex outside of marriage. Yes…I have done it as a Christian. Yes…it is wrong. Its a sin. Am I forgiven?..sure… I should repent and make a effort of living for and becomning more Christlike.
I have been bought with the price of the blood of Christ. I am a new creation. But I will sin until I die.
Now…that does not mean there will not be earthly consequences to my sinful behavior. Just like with King David. He sinned with Bathsheba and the Lord forgave him when he repented. However…the Lord told him because of his sin…the sword would not leave his family!
Also…there are degrees of reward in Heaven according to what we have done or not done here on earth. AND.there are degrees of punishment in Hell that depend on how the lost have lived their lives also. God is just and fair. He would not punish a garden variety pagan the same as He would punish a Hitler.
God is just. He will also NOT pull people who do not love Him…kicking and screaming against their will into Heaven!! He wants people who CHOOSE to love Him and want to be with Him. He is just remember. If you choose not to love Him…He will not torture you by bringing you into Heaven against your wish!
There is nothing anti Christian about being a T-man. Remember…God made testosterone!..And He made sex! He is the ultimate lover! He made sex as a gift from Him to be shared with your marital spouse. To show us the type of intimacy He desires with us!
If you were the last person on earth…Jesus Christ would go to the cross for your sin!..thats an awesome thought! A free gift…you can choose to accept it and live life abundantly. Or choose to reject it.
One word to Goldberg. I agree with some of your points…Man creates problems in the church. However…that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t find a well balanced …healthy congregation to attend and fellowship with. Remember…the Bible doesn’t know anythin about “Lone Ranger” Christians. Its about a community of believers. I have been blessed to go to a church called Northpoint Community in Alpharetta Ga. Most of my guy Christian friends even work out at LAFitness where I do. There not selfrighteous geeks either. They are sincere guys who work out…love the Lord…and are their for each other.
One other thing I forgot to mention:
Even well intentioned Christians seem confused about this:
Its not about RELIGION!! Its about a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST!!
Its not about religion.
Its not about your relationship with Jesus Christ or Buda.
Its about this only: wether you are a man of integrity with outstanding values and virtues such as courage to die for your felow man, honesty, ethics, hardworking, so forth.
Sex is not a sin. Im not a depraved man. In fact I have a thing about casual sex with someone I dont know. Im not the type of man who sleeps around with soomeone I just met. Yet I do it because that’s my character. If I were to fuck every girl 5 minutes after meeting her, theres no sin there. Just your conscience telling you wether it was a good thing or a bad thing.
Agathos:
You make some good points, however I do in my heart believe masturbation itself to be completely ok. And I disagree with you on one main point - while masturbation might often be caused BY lust, it is seldom the cause OF lust. And for me, masturbation cuts lust short - were I to stop doing it, the lust would stick around and I would brood on it for days and eventually be in serious danger of sexual sin. And I know lust itself is a sin, and it is the one I (and many guys) struggle with most - in fact I pray about it frequently. It is only with God’s help that I avoid sexual sin.
Your argument is that when you masturbate, you think about sex (lust), therefore masturbation is a sin.
My argument is that when I DON’T masturbate, I think about little other than sex and am in extreme danger of sexual sin. On the other hand when I DO masturbate, I keep said lust at a minimal level.
This could even be a personal issue - if you find masturbation to be a stumbling block, then by all means don’t do it. If however, doing it keeps lust to a minimum as it does in my case, then I think its a good thing. I think it is wrong to say “masturbation is evil” however.
Also, the fact is that physiologicaly, the male body will “get off” fairly frequently, either via masturbation or if one does not masturbate, wet dreams.
So, yes, I masturbate and I presume I will continue to do so even after I am married (less perhaps, but it will still happen).
I am a Christian became a christian 8 years ago in Korea.
The idea that the bible is written by man and therefore false is just a weak statement. Stop smoking the pot and pcp and come down th the real world.
Nobody forced me to become a christian my choice. Best choice i ever made. Even though I stumble all the time.
Deezle I use to be the same way you are. i see nobody trying to control me. I think you are haveing some issues with your folks. And you are probally still a teenager.
And one more thing If the bible was written by man give one thing that is controlling and not based on good morals.
Goldberg I feel the same way about church right now. Eventhough I know I should be in a church I just can,t get motivated to jion a new church.
I find it hard to believe that if God could carve tablets of stone and create Man from the earth that he’d find it too hard to write his own words down. Anyway, let’s be honest here, the version of the bible that you read now is different from what it was a few hundred years ago. Hell, I’ve even found whole paragraphs left out some versions as opposed to others. I refuse to believe an interpretation as this leads to distortions. Anyway, it all doesn’t matter what you are folks, you are all the result of pre-destiny…whether you grow up a Christian or are condemmed to hell for being an atheist like myself, there’s nothing you can do cause that’s the way that God pre-destined it, hey guys? 
I must say, I’m used to a discussion like this being a lot more heated with a good deal of name-calling going on. Nice to see intelligent views and calm conversation no matter what side it comes from; keep it up!
Regards
BMF (predestined to bench Toyotas)
“Some one asked about denominations. Well, I often attend a Southern Baptist Church; however, I consider myself a Pauline Dispensationalist rather than a Baptists.”
Wow. I didn’t expect to find another one (I’m a Pauline Dispensationalist, as well). Except, I’m lucky to have a good church about 3 miles from my house, I love the fellowship and the teaching as well.
Been gone from the forum for about a week, but wanted to add that Jesus is my lord as well! Glad to see so many brothers and sisters in Christ!
It seems to me that Christianity is the most philisophically sound religion so that draws me to it. Although I have very little knowledge in the differences of each denomination. What are the differences between being a catholic, prodesant, baptist, and so on? Where and how did each denomination begin? Are certain denominations spin-offs of others? I think that kind of stuff is so interesting.
I am a Christian Theist.
Agathos:
I suppose that to the extent your presuppositions are correct - namely that masturbation would necessarily lead to more sexual impurity - then your position makes sense. However, I must say that I find, as has Sniper, mostly the opposite effect. Masturbation seems to me to be a useful tool for controlling the level of “impure thoughts” I have – the longer I go without, the more I think about it. Add that to the idea (if correct) that using the equipment on a regular basis is healthy, and I see it as a positive.
Of course, as with anything, too much of a good thing is a bad thing, but that’s the case with just about everything (even protein).
Anyway, I’m no theologian, but it seems logical to me. That’s my $0.02.
Yup, I’m a christian. Been with Christ since I was about 16 years old.
BostonBarrister, good points.
Also, Agathos, so you know, I am not trying to suggest masturbation is good for everyone - if it is a stumbling block for you, then I commend you for avoiding it! I am merely suggesting it isn’t inherently sinful.
BostonBarrister, Sniper:
I was going to leave you guys to your own convictions, but as you’ve been so insistent on announcing your excuses I’m going to have to show you how weak and absurd they are.
First:
If it’s a stumbling block for me!? No, no. It’s a stumbling block for everyone. You see, your excuses that it helps you maintane sexual purity are the same lame excuses I used when I was first introduced to the idea.
The truth is this this. It doesn’t help you not have sex. The more you think about sex, and the more you teach your body to crave it (with simultaneous mental and physical stimulation) the more likely you are to break down in a crucial moment, and uh’oh, “Mom, dad, I got this girl that I really don’t like all that much pregnant…”
Again, read the verse above (and this is just one of MANY)!!! Then tell me that its okay to masterbate, or even to freely lust in your mind. It’s not, and you know it isn’t. Christ doesn’t want us to have sex, masterbate, or walk around with dirty thoughts all day.
What I found was that it’s not impossible to not masterbate or to have a pure mind either. It looks like this… impure thoughts lead to masterbation, that leads to sex, that simple. What I found was that after a long struggle and battle I was able to fill my thoughts all through the day with things other than lusting. When I was able to do that I was able to not need to masterbate, much less have sex, and was surprised to learn that I for once in my life had attained COMPLETE control over my physical body, which very few men do.
Does the bible SPECIFICALLY ask you not to do it. Noooo, it just, in numerous places, tells of the importance of complete sexual purity.
Your arguments to me now, and mine a year or so ago, are like a little boy who’s parents ask him not to “punch” his sister, so he turns and “kicks” her.
You’re searching your heart, Bibles, and Internet asking what’s the bare minimum I can get away with and not sin. First of all you’re wrong, masterbation and lusting in your mind is a sin, very clearly pointed out in MANY verses. But the main thing is that you’re looking for minimums!!! You’re mixing standards! Living your life according to some things but not others! I would guess that you guys tithe EXACTLY 10% huh? And that’s from your total income after taxes!
LISTEN guys, you need to be asking yourselves and your Lord, “How Holy can I be?” How pure can I be sexually? How much can I give? How much can I be blessed by living a life as close to Christ’s as I can?
You guys should look at Hosea 8:5-6
and again… Matthew 5:28, maybe Ephesians 5:3
Better Yet! Read:
“Every Man’s Battle” by Arterburn
You can pick it up used off of Amazon! 3$! Trust me.
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Agathos… what’s that noise? Hm… sounds like a time bomb to me. You are right… repress those dirty, impure thoughts. While you are at it, join the clergy, where you can be assured of a lifetime of repression/suppression. When you inevitably snap, you can simply bag for forgiveness and get shipped off to some other burg where they have no idea what kind of monster lurks beneath the pleasant veneer of a clergyman. As long as you are a Christian and you ask for forgiveness it is okay, right?
Me? I am headed straight to hell. I certainly had my hey-day, and now that I am married with my 3rd kid on the way, when I can’t get sex from my wife and I NEED it (which all men do, whether you admit it or not), I don’t hesitate to masterbate!
I feel sorry for you, because, by virtue of your posting here, I can presume that you are a T-Man. T=testosterone. T-Man = a man who produces higher level of testosterone than regular men. Testosterone is a hormone that carries a command, like other hormones. Actually it carries two, and in our primative stage of development (which you don’t believe in anyway because it contradicts literalist fundamentalist’s belief in “creationism”), those two commands were essential to survival. Those two commands are “fuck it” and “kill it”. As “civilized” men we have learned to temper that a bit, but it is still there, gives the same command as it has for thousands of years. It is as intrinsic to being a man as having a penis or liking Hummers (the vehicle, not the act of oral sex, which you should like anyway).
So deny it if you will… it won’t be denied forever though. It will manifest itself in some other fashion. In the meantime, make sure that when you do get married to get a blanket and cut a hole in it. And what ever you do, don’t enjoy yourself! It is only for reproduction!