Another Mass Grave Found

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

[quote]lixy wrote:
On the other hand, JTF clearly crosses the line into anti-Semitism. He constantly downplays - and sometimes borderline denies - the horrific events of the Holocaust.
[/quote]

Because science and common sense doesn’t support it. Forensic science will always trump eye witness testimony.

The thing that actually made me research the holocaust in the first place was a few years ago when I had my 60 lb dog cremated and it took a full TWO HOURS and something like 9 gallons of propane for one 60 lb dog.

That’s what got me thinking about other aspects of the holocaust that aren’t usually considered – it just started as an intuitive hunch.

I used to think the same things about anyone who thought the holocaust didn’t happen or downplayed it, until that one day when I started thinking about the more technical aspects and plausibility of it.

I see now why its illegal to deny or downplay it in several so-called “free” countries – there’s not enough forensic evidence to support it.

Nope, mostly just eye-witness testimony and holocaust “experts”…

Duping the Holocaust experts
By a macabre twist, the first doubts as to authenticity came not from Holocaust experts, but from a Holocaust revisionist…

“Fragments,” published in Switzerland in 1995, was almost immediately acclaimed a masterpiece, and it soon became an international bestseller. Wilkomirski won the National Jewish Book Award for autobiography, the Prix Memoire de la Shoah in France and the Jewish Quarterly Literary Prize in Britain. He even received a cash award from the American Orthopsychiatric Association. As his fame grew, Wilkomirski received standing ovations throughout America, at lectures organized by the U.S. Holocaust Museum. Newspapers cited him as an authority on the Holocaust. Some compared him to Primo Levi. Historians assigned “Fragments” to their students.

And then he was exposed. The author of the harrowing Holocaust memoir turned out to be an impostor. He was a gentile who had spent the war in a comfortable Protestant home in Switzerland…

…And then there is the troubling question of just how those who believed him came to be so easily fooled. Why were so many researchers, publishers, editors, agents, scholars and critics taken in? You would think, given the intensity of historical interest in the Holocaust, that someone might have spotted the fraud early on.

It would be interesting, for example, to know how Holocaust historians such as Daniel Goldhagen, who so lavishly praised the book, now feel. What does Deborah Lipstadt, author of “Denying the Holocaust,” think of the fact Doessekker has become (against his wishes) a hero for Holocaust deniers? (Prof. Lipstadt assigned Fragments to her class reading list, and spent a whole day with “Wilkomirski” when he came to Atlanta as part of his speaking tour.)

And what does the director of the U.S. Holocaust Museum think of his having made “Wilkomirski” a guest of honor at a $150-per-plate luncheon at New York’s Hotel Carlyle? Mr. Eskin might have insisted on asking such questions of a host of people who should have known better. It is a pity that he didn’t.
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/HolocaustHorrors.html

Kook revisionist exposes fraud who had fooled all the top Holocaust industry experts… now there’s a great book!

Just a thought, wouldn’t someone truly anti-semitic be happier knowing MORE Jews died?

The truth is Lixy, I’ve learned to embrace the anti-semitic label because I’ve found out there is no “in between”. Either you keep your mouth shut or your anti-semitic. You try and ride the rail and say I crossed the line but the truth is YOU’RE labeled anti-semitic for siding with Finkelstein and showing sympathy for the Palestinians. Even Jimmy Carter is labeled a Jew hater.

In John S’ eyes your just an anti-semitic calling me anti-semitic.

62

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
lixy wrote:
On the other hand, JTF clearly crosses the line into anti-Semitism. He constantly downplays - and sometimes borderline denies - the horrific events of the Holocaust.

Because science and common sense doesn’t support it. Forensic science will always trump eye witness testimony.

The thing that actually made me research the holocaust in the first place was a few years ago when I had my 60 lb dog cremated and it took a full TWO HOURS and something like 9 gallons of propane for one 60 lb dog.

That’s what got me thinking about other aspects of the holocaust that aren’t usually considered – it just started as an intuitive hunch.

I used to think the same things about anyone who thought the holocaust didn’t happen or downplayed it, until that one day when I started thinking about the more technical aspects and plausibility of it.

I see now why its illegal to deny or downplay it in several so-called “free” countries – there’s not enough forensic evidence to support it.

Nope, mostly just eye-witness testimony and holocaust “experts”…

Duping the Holocaust experts
By a macabre twist, the first doubts as to authenticity came not from Holocaust experts, but from a Holocaust revisionist…

“Fragments,” published in Switzerland in 1995, was almost immediately acclaimed a masterpiece, and it soon became an international bestseller. Wilkomirski won the National Jewish Book Award for autobiography, the Prix Memoire de la Shoah in France and the Jewish Quarterly Literary Prize in Britain. He even received a cash award from the American Orthopsychiatric Association. As his fame grew, Wilkomirski received standing ovations throughout America, at lectures organized by the U.S. Holocaust Museum. Newspapers cited him as an authority on the Holocaust. Some compared him to Primo Levi. Historians assigned “Fragments” to their students.

And then he was exposed. The author of the harrowing Holocaust memoir turned out to be an impostor. He was a gentile who had spent the war in a comfortable Protestant home in Switzerland…

…And then there is the troubling question of just how those who believed him came to be so easily fooled. Why were so many researchers, publishers, editors, agents, scholars and critics taken in? You would think, given the intensity of historical interest in the Holocaust, that someone might have spotted the fraud early on.

It would be interesting, for example, to know how Holocaust historians such as Daniel Goldhagen, who so lavishly praised the book, now feel. What does Deborah Lipstadt, author of “Denying the Holocaust,” think of the fact Doessekker has become (against his wishes) a hero for Holocaust deniers? (Prof. Lipstadt assigned Fragments to her class reading list, and spent a whole day with “Wilkomirski” when he came to Atlanta as part of his speaking tour.)

And what does the director of the U.S. Holocaust Museum think of his having made “Wilkomirski” a guest of honor at a $150-per-plate luncheon at New York’s Hotel Carlyle? Mr. Eskin might have insisted on asking such questions of a host of people who should have known better. It is a pity that he didn’t.
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/HolocaustHorrors.html

Kook revisionist exposes fraud who had fooled all the top Holocaust industry experts… now there’s a great book!

Just a thought, wouldn’t someone truly anti-semitic be happier knowing MORE Jews died?

The truth is Lixy, I’ve learned to embrace the anti-semitic label because I’ve found out there is no “in between”. Either you keep your mouth shut or your anti-semitic. You try and ride the rail and say I crossed the line but the truth is YOU’RE labeled anti-semitic for siding with Finkelstein and showing sympathy for the Palestinians. Even Jimmy Carter is labeled a Jew hater.

In John S’ eyes your just an anti-semitic calling me anti-semitic.[/quote]

Actually I attack lixy for different reasons but not for calling you what you are.

63

[quote]John S. wrote:
Actually I attack lixy for different reasons but not for calling you what you are.[/quote]

To question where the physical remains of a million people are isn’t anti-semitic. You may think it is, but its not, I don’t care how many times you say it.

64

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
John S. wrote:
Actually I attack lixy for different reasons but not for calling you what you are.

To question where the physical remains of a million people are isn’t anti-semitic. You may think it is, but its not, I don’t care how many times you say it.[/quote]

You have been told many times what went on there, if you can’t understand it then your either retarded or are looking for anything to say against the Jewish people.

65

[quote]John S. wrote:
You have been told many times what went on there, if you can’t understand it then your either retarded or are looking for anything to say against the Jewish people.[/quote]

I know, we’ve been told many times what went on there by “eye witnesses”.

The same eye witnesses that said John Demjanjuk was “Ivan the Terrible”:

John Demjanjuk (born Ivan Demjanjuk on 3 April 1920[1] in Dubovye Makharintsy, Kiev Oblast, USSR), is a retired auto worker who emigrated to the United States from Europe in 1951.

He was later accused of, tried for, convicted of, and sentenced to death for war crimes, based on his identification by Israeli Holocaust survivors as “Ivan the Terrible”, a notorious SS guard at the Treblinka extermination camp during the period 1942-1943 who allegedly committed acts of extraordinarily savage violence and murder against camp prisoners.

He was later exonerated by Israel’s highest court of crimes against humanity after new evidence came to light.

66

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
Because science and common sense doesn’t support it. Forensic science will always trump eye witness testimony. [/quote]

I totally agree with that bit.

Sure. But you achieve a lot more efficiency when you got ovens running 24 hours a day.

I usually just side with the concensus. And in this case, it’s so overwhelming, that you’re probably part of a 0.001% of the population. That’s gotta set up bells somehow.

Good one! I have no respect for the idiots that criminalize critical thinking. That’s against everything I stand for.

Well, your experts are ranging from historians to scientists. It’s very hard to dismiss them as part of some conspiracy to hold back the truth.

I agree with the fact that the Holocaust is rammed down our throats waaaaaayyyyyy too often, but you can’t just say that it’s a myth. There’s plenty of documented evidence to corroborate the massacre besides testimonies of eye witnesses.

Anti-Semitism is used as a term to refer to anyone who denies the Holocaust. That’s what I meant. I don’t know if you’re prejudiced against the Jews, but when you bring up the infamous protocols, it kinda settles it for most.

[quote]The truth is Lixy, I’ve learned to embrace the anti-semitic label because I’ve found out there is no “in between”. Either you keep your mouth shut or your anti-semitic. You try and ride the rail and say I crossed the line but the truth is YOU’RE labeled anti-semitic for siding with Finkelstein and showing sympathy for the Palestinians. Even Jimmy Carter is labeled a Jew hater.

In John S’ eyes your just an anti-semitic calling me anti-semitic.[/quote]

I’m of Semitic heritage myself (being an Arab), so it would be absurb to label as anti-Semitic. Also, I couldn’t give a rat’s ass what some brainwashed teenager thinks about me.

As to the contemporary use of the term, you might find the 2005 study by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia interesting. They made the list so long, that virtually anyone who doesn’t unconditionally support Israel’s actions, might be tagged as anti-Semitic. It’s just a wildcard that’s used everytime someone denounces the wrongdoings of Zionists.

The reputation the Jews acquired throughout the ages is certainly founded to some extent. They held monopolies and been bookies for as long as money’s been around. That evidently was not tolerated by the people living in those countries. But here’s where it goes wrong: When you start blaming all the Jews for it. I know a great deal of Jews, and while some truly couldn’t give a damn about anything else but themselves, others are genuinely nice people that are fighting to make the world a better place. I believe you when you say that you have nothing against Jews and are after Zionists. But good faith starts vanishing when you quote the Protocols.

67

[quote]"I know, we’ve been told many times what went on there by “eye witnesses”.

The same eye witnesses that said John Demjanjuk was “Ivan the Terrible”:"[/quote]

Unless you claim that all Treblinka eyewitnesses identified Demjanyk as Ivan the Terrible, I don’t really see the point.

Moreover, their incorrect identification half a century after the events can hardly discredit their earlier testimonies. It does prove that the first Demjyanuk trial was a miscarriage of justice, since nobody should have relied on such an identification procedure, but that is an entirely different matter.

Needless to say, he was exonerated based on the testimonies of dozens of Treblinka Wachmanns, Slavic guards. The same testimonies which describe the murder, the gas chambers and the graves.

To ask silly irrelevant questions to make an antisemitic point is antisemitic. It has been explained time and again that the bodies have been burned, the hard parts smashed, the remains, consisting of broken bones, ashes, etc., scattered around the camp, on the roads, in the graves - and that’s exactly what has been found by the Soviet and Polish investigators upon the liberation of Treblinka area. If you have any concrete evidence that this didn’t happen, you’re free to provide it.

68

[quote]John S. wrote:
JustTheFacts wrote:
John S. wrote:
Actually I attack lixy for different reasons but not for calling you what you are.

To question where the physical remains of a million people are isn’t anti-semitic. You may think it is, but its not, I don’t care how many times you say it.

You have been told many times what went on there, if you can’t understand it then your either retarded or are looking for anything to say against the Jewish people.[/quote]

I wouldn’t take anything JTF says seriously. Just ignore him. Lob a rock at his head everyonce in a while and walk on. In this country you are free to hate whom you please, so let him hate. Hate consumes the hater in the end.

69

[quote]Tokoya wrote:
pat36 wrote:

Zionism - A piss poor excuse for people to do violent acts of murder and destuction on innocent civilains women and children just trying to go about thier daily lives.

That description seems rather apt for “Hamas” no? Why the hell don’t these folks have a state after all?

http://en.rian.ru/world/20070613/67152290.html[/quote]

Because the very existance of Hamas depends on the Palistinian-Israeli conflict. If that were over and they were at peace with the protection of statehood, Hamas would be little more than a politcal movement an that goes against their very reason for existance.

70

[quote]Sergey Romanov wrote:
If you have any concrete evidence that this didn’t happen, you’re free to provide it.[/quote]

Mr. Romanov,

While I agree with all you said, you’re being unfair by asking JTF to provide concrete evidence that it did not happen.

JTF does not consider the testimonies concrete evidence. He asks for solid proof (i.e: scientific evidence) that it did happen. By most standards, the burden of proof would lie on you. We are evidently convinced of the occurence of the events, but he isn’t. He demands rock-solid evidence which we fail to provide.

I did some research and found out plenty of testimonies and Nazi archives and that’s evidently good enough for me and you. But all the scientific studies fail to provide irrefutable proof. That’s the loophole JTF is exploiting. So, to get back to the point: Don’t demand of people to prove a negative.

Other than that, good post.

71

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Because the very existance of Hamas depends on the Palistinian-Israeli conflict. If that were over and they were at peace with the protection of statehood, Hamas would be little more than a politcal movement an that goes against their very reason for existance. [/quote]

Absolutely!

That Hamas rose to power shows how desperate the Palestinians got. They saw Arafat get duped for too long and their living conditions deteriorate by the day. They also saw that they were abondoned by the international community (who could stand up to the US anyway?) and picked the last resort.

A very bad move as far as PR is concerned. But I guess that when you’re packed in an open-air prison with no security of prospects, that becomes less relevant.

72

The Nazis killed everyone. Jews, blacks, gays, gypsies… etc.

Anyone they didn’t like. The holocaust was more than just a bunch of Jews getting killed, everyone else they didn’t approve of died also.

73

Lixy, I see that I did not express myself clearly, for that I apologize. The challenge referred to the last sentence, namely, to what was found there after the Nazis left the place.

There’s a bit about what was found at our blog:

(also in that NAFCASH posting). That’s Polish investigations, and I also can cite the 1944 reports by the Red Army which overran the area and found ashes everywhere.

Again, JTF will probably use “those lying Poles and Soviets” canard, but unless he can disprove that they did find what they had reported, he cannot make a claim that nothing was found (and therefore Treblinka is a lie), because that claim should also rely on some sort of evidence. “Soviets and Poles are unreliable” would not be such evidence. (At best it would indicate that the evidence regarding the remains is neither here nor there, so other kinds of evidence would have to be used.)

That’s ahistorical approach. One deals with what evidence one has.

We have:

  1. Documents proving that about 800,000 Jews were deported to a small Treblinka camp.

  2. No trace of these Jews anywhere else (e.g., in USSR, which was the supposed final destination for the Jews, according to Korherr report.) No denier has ever accounted for these missing Jews during the 60 post-war years. People don’t just vanish without a trace.

  3. Numerous testimonies by perpetrators, victims and bystanders (e.g., locals living in nearby villages such as Wulka) given at different times, in different countries. They may differ in details and reliability, but the bulk of the testimonies points to a single conclusion.

  4. Physical evidence, which is at least consistent with witnesses’ claims. While the current state of the physical evidence is probably neither here, nor there (no wonder, after 60 years), there are contemporary records of the physical evidence, such as post-war findings by the Soviets and Poles, and at least one German war-time document which documents the existence of enormous Jewish graves in Treblinka (see http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/camps/aktion.reinhard/treblinka/images/ for images and translation of the document).

(This is comparable, say, to a temperature record. Obviously, you can’t measure temperature on 21 Oct. 1988, but there are records which you can use.)

I’m afraid “hard science” is somewhat of a red herring when it comes to historical events - they’re established by historical means (documents, testimonies, etc.), not by experiments.

But even here we can use the “scientific” form to express some ideas.

I.e., there is a fact which needs an explanation (~800,000 missing Jews).

What theory each side can offer, and what evidence there is for each such theory?

The normative history: these Jews’ path ended in Treblinka. This is confirmed by numerous witnesses and by the very absence of these Jews anywhere else. There are records which support the existence of human remains and graves at and around the site.

“Revisionists”: well, um, Jewish witnesses are lying, Polish witnesses are lying, Germans have been tortured, there is no evidence whatsoever, because all you have are witnesses, and they’re lying Jews. And those missing Jews… They are there… Somewhere… Um. What was the question again?

74

I have a question for JTF.

If mass murder did not take place in Treblinka, what would men like Franz Stangl and Kurt Franz benefit from lying about what happened there?

Stangl was executed, Franz died in prison, are you saying that both men threw their lives away for the Zionist cause, or that they were framed?

In other words, what would alleged Nazi war criminals gain in playing along with this “lie?”

Just curious.

75

Let’s discuss Treblinka and the lies of this sergayboy creep. I will keep this as simple as I can so even idiots like John S can understand.

First off, go to the nafcash.com site ( http://www.nafcash.com/ ) - which btw, has been updated and the cash reward has been raised to $250,000.00

OK - the REALLY easy part of this is understanding that the veracity of the alleged Treblinka holocaust literally stands or falls on the existance of the alleged “huge mass graves” that allegedly contain the cremated remains of 870,000 jews. These alleged remains would constitute millions of pounds of bone, tens of millions of teeth as well as tens of thousands of spent bullets and shell casings. Look at the photos on the nafcash site. A retarded fouth grader, or even John S, should be able to understand that these alleged “huge mass graves” could be found in a heartbeat if the jews really wanted to locate them and put an end to holocuast denial. That is step one.

So before I go on, is there anyone (this means you sergayboy and idiot S) who actually believe that these alleged “huge mass graves” couldn’t be found by using modern archaeological / forensic science techniques? Is there anyone who actually believes that the Nazi’s could make 870,000 jews magically disapear? Now before you answer, make sure you read the entire nafcash site, because if you don’t take into consideration nafcash’s Final Solution Forensic Challenge, I’m just going to tear you a new one when I respond.

The following is from the nafcash site

To illustrate just how incredibly easy winning THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE TM (as well as THE TREBLINKA CSI CHALLENGE TM), should be IF the official version of the holocaust / final solution / pure extermination centers is true, click HERE: Using forensic tools common to all criminal investigations today, Mr. O’Neil’s scrutiny gives clear proof of the killings despite the attempts to destroy this evidence:It does not matter how big the crime is as such - it could have been 800,000 people or one person - the detection, or forensic investigation, is exactly the same as long as the correct procedures are adopted, he said. By using the archaeology of the Holocaust excavations at Belzec in a similar way to forensic scrutiny, O’Neil discovered that the Nazis had dug up all the bodies, burnt them and ground the bones down and put them back in 33 pits, some big enough to contain 80,000 bodies. Not only did they dig up all the bodies, burnt them and ground the bones up, but they then put them all back and grassed the graves over. So they have been intact there for the last 60 odd years."

The remains of 800,000 people buried in 33 mass graves, some big enough to contain 80,000 bodies? Really? Then why does THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE TM reward remain unclaimed? What�??s wrong with this picture? Do you see the conundrum that the Jews and their skeptical minions have lied themselves into? For years the official versions of the alleged Treblinka and Belzec holocausts were VIRTUALLY IDENTICAL; then suddenly, the masters of the big lie technique claim that the Belzec fable has been scientifically - forensically proven, yet with the same breath they claim that not an iota of tangible physical evidence remains at Treblinka! These contradictory claims can�??t both be true. (But they can both be false!) This is pure Orwellian doublethinking. (The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in ones mind simultaneously and accepting both of them.) If you would like to know the truth about this fraudulent investigation (which, by the way, was carried out under the auspices of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum), click HERE: “Here we have this book with all the high falootin names and institutions attached and yet one little kid with a toy plastic shovel could show the whole thing to be the total nonsense it is.”

Nafcsh must have had retards like John S in mind when they wrote this -

… Why do people continue to believe in physical impossibilities even after being confronted with incontrovertible facts that refute them? Because you can’t convince a true believer of anything, for their beliefs are not based on science and reason, they’re based on faith and a deep-seated NEED to believe. Hence, most propaganda isn’t designed to fool the critical thinker, but rather; Only to give self-deceiving cowards an excuse not to think at all.

76

Someone wants eye witnesses?
How about this one.

“THE SATURDAY PROFILE; One Story at a Time, a Priest Reveals Ukrainian Jews’ Fate”

This rant about cremation, is not just distasteful, it confirms how imposssibly stupid and malicious are the Holocaust deniers. The Topf crematoria, among others, were industrial furnaces, designed to use human corpses as the fuel of their own destruction. The malignant fantasies of the Holocaust deniers were disproven long ago, but irrational deniers keep dredging them out. Honest historians, of which Finkelstein is most certainly not, acknowledge research that is not hate-based.

The Holocaust is the most thoroughly documented historical event…ever.

That it is denied continuously, merely marks the persistent hatred and lunacy displayed by the various vile posters here.

77

[quote]cath wrote:
These alleged remains would constitute millions of pounds of bone, tens of millions of teeth as well as tens of thousands of spent bullets and shell casings. [/quote]

They did not shoot their victims at Treblinka, they gassed them, hense, no spent bullet casings and shell casings.

78

[quote]Gkhan wrote:
cath wrote:
These alleged remains would constitute millions of pounds of bone, tens of millions of teeth as well as tens of thousands of spent bullets and shell casings.

They did not shoot their victims at Treblinka, they gassed them, hense, no spent bullet casings and shell casings.[/quote]

Most concentration camp victims died of malnutrition and diseases caused by the sanitary conditions.

Physically working 12 hours a day with 1800kcal per person in basically paper clothes has a very bullet sparing effect on people.

Remains in crematories are usually ground to dust.

80

[quote]Chushin wrote:
orion wrote:

Most concentration camp victims died of malnutrition and diseases caused by the sanitary conditions.

Physically working 12 hours a day with 1800kcal per person in basically paper clothes has a very bullet sparing effect on people.

Remains in crematories are usually ground to dust.

You ought to know.[/quote]

Yes, because I read books.

Try it.