We may not need more weight classes, just more separation at the top end, but no one on the lower end wants to fight a guy who may be 10 lbs heavier when he steps into the ring. Create one or two new classes on top, and treat the huge number of “guys who couldn’t knock Irish down” as a separate problem.
I watched the fight, it was one of the most boring I have ever seen (I haven’t seen much boxing), but the most noticeable thing was the Peters lack of technique, even to a layman. Can’t blame Klicko for not attacking an opponent he had dominated in the ring.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I think Adamek is a throwback to that, and you saw him beat Arreola, and you’re going to see him beat a Klitscho if he trains hard enough.
[/quote]
In fairness, I do not see this happening unless Vitali has slipped a lot (which is possible).
But I do agree that the ultra-heavies of today would find the quasi-heavies of yesterday to be more than a match for them.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Ain’t one guy here saying they’re too big. Not me at least. But I think that if you had smaller, faster heavyweights like we used to that have better skills and more endurance, they’d kill Wlad.
Vitali is different because he’s got that warrior’s heart. He’d stand up. But Wlad is really just the king of nothing in my eyes. The talent pool for bigger guys just isn’t there, as evidenced by the crappy LHW and Cruiserweight division.
I think Adamek is a throwback to that, and you saw him beat Arreola, and you’re going to see him beat a Klitscho if he trains hard enough.
And really Heavy- there’s no competition from the HW division as far as interest goes. Everybody likes the lighter divisions now, and with the slew of tough, gritty, powerful fighters, Pacman and Mayweather and Marquez and Berto and Martinez and Pavlik and williams… fuck man, no reason to watch above 168 anymore.
[/quote]
we will agree to disagree Irish. the light heavies, cruisers and heavies are fun to watch for me cuz i love to see the BIG men bang.
and you were the one saying Arreola would kill either klit, Hatton was going to thrash Pac-man, Pavlik was the next coming of Christ…
i have had some bad predictions in my life too Irish, not trying to rub it in, but when you say Adamek will beat the wlad??? do you know how far off the reservation you are with the rest of the boxing pundits??? Especially after his so-so performance against a “super heavy” michael grant. grants size gave Adamek problems, and he has a tenth of the skill set W.K. has. Wlad will KILL Adamek. if Adamek beats wlad…i will fly to Jersey and buy you a bottle of Jamesons, and help you drink the motherfucker in a pub of your choice.
[quote]heavythrower wrote:
and you were the one saying Arreola would kill either klit, Hatton was going to thrash Pac-man, Pavlik was the next coming of Christ…
[/quote]
Hey, I’m no fortune teller. I’ve called plenty of fights and fighters right, of course, but don’t nobody remember that.
[quote]
i have had some bad predictions in my life too Irish, not trying to rub it in, but when you say Adamek will beat the wlad??? do you know how far off the reservation you are with the rest of the boxing pundits??? Especially after his so-so performance against a “super heavy” michael grant. grants size gave Adamek problems, and he has a tenth of the skill set W.K. has. Wlad will KILL Adamek. if Adamek beats wlad…i will fly to Jersey and buy you a bottle of Jamesons, and help you drink the motherfucker in a pub of your choice. [/quote]
Hey I’m just saying he could win. I’m not saying he will. I like Adamek but I haven’t watched him enough to be able to tell how that fight will go.
And also, I can understand wanting to see big men bang, but THESE big men are just terrible. No sense of excitement or drama in any fight, just the same old bullshit.
I’ll translate:
“heavies suck these days.”
→
“we have no great americans who have epic, dramatic bouts with each other.”
Get over it.
Today’s heavies can punch harder then yesterday’s. And they can use the [lean] extra mass for other things like clinching and taking punches.
Do I enjoy watching videos of C.Clay, Liston, Foreman and others? Sure, very much so.
The Klitschkos are much bigger and stronger then Liston, Frazier and Ali and others of that era.
The idea behind weight classes is that bigger weights enjoy a certain advantage. Even the old greeks already knew that.
Because we are like sport to be fair, we try to seperate athletes according to their mass. Which makes sense.
How we do that, we can discuss (in my opinion, they def. should abandon a lot of boxing classes if they as well as weigh the fighters right before a fight) all day.
But more trained weight IS a big plus that doesn’t go away at a magical 200lbs barrier.
And modern athletes have more of it, made easier available though a “secret vitamin” and better training protocols (for muscle).
I’m sorry that we live in the steroid era, but we do.
I get it Franz, you love eastern european fighters and that’s ALL that this is about.
It’s not anything about the boringness of the individual fights, the lack of great rivalries, the COMPLETE lack of personality among ANY fighter in the class, and the complete lack of excitement in the division as a whole.
It’s all about American fighters.
Remember dickless, you’re talking to the dude who’s favorite fighter is Ricky Hatton and who likes Adamek and has rooted hard for Lennox Lewis, Kostya Tzyu, and all types of foreign fighters. Hell, half my favorite guys are fucking Mexicans.
I’m far from America-centric, so get the fuck over it, and its insulting to me that you’re putting this all on the race of the fucking fighter. What the hell do I really care where they’re from? I like guys who go out on their shield. The HW division sorely lacks that. I don’t want to hear it.
I think a prime and in shape Riddick Bowe would have given either Klitschko brother a lot of problems. Although not as physically strong, he had a similar height and reach, a good jab and was a very good inside fighter for a big heavyweight. I agree that size makes a big difference, the Klitschko brothers are both good big heavyweights. You do not often see big men as athletic as a Klitschko or a Lennox Lewis. To beat them will take either an equally good “big” heavyweight or a great smaller heavyweight.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
I get it Franz, you love eastern european fighters and that’s ALL that this is about.
It’s not anything about the boringness of the individual fights, the lack of great rivalries, the COMPLETE lack of personality among ANY fighter in the class, and the complete lack of excitement in the division as a whole.
It’s all about American fighters.
Remember dickless, you’re talking to the dude who’s favorite fighter is Ricky Hatton and who likes Adamek and has rooted hard for Lennox Lewis, Kostya Tzyu, and all types of foreign fighters. Hell, half my favorite guys are fucking Mexicans.
I’m far from America-centric, so get the fuck over it, and its insulting to me that you’re putting this all on the race of the fucking fighter. What the hell do I really care where they’re from? I like guys who go out on their shield. The HW division sorely lacks that. I don’t want to hear it.[/quote]
Cowboy, the lack of great rivalries does not mean there are no great fighters. Merely that their skillset isn’t closely matched with someone who’s style makes for an interesting fight. And that said fight won’t go for 15 rounds leaving both close to death.
Lack of personality - I want to see their fighting persona, not some WWF style shittalking. Wjat type of personality had Lennox Lewis to offer, since you mentioned him?
You hold the heavyweight division to a standard they cannot fulfill. Today, they ARE by definition less attractive because they strike so hard, and have less endurance, making a more cautious approach necessary.
I like the Klitschkos because of their style. There are few heavies that have a decent jab and can throw nice, STRAIGHT punches that use full range.
As for eastern european guys I do like to watch, there are only a handful at best, the most prominent being Chagaev. He’s short, mean and clever. The opposite of the ukrainians.
My one, big argument is still the sheer physicality:
How is a 220lbs guy like Tyson gonna cope with a 330 lbs guy like Valuev inside the ring? Even if he did well, how shitty would that fight be? The mutant would lean the first rounds the shit out of his opponent - who’s more then a foot shorter!
That’s not a fight I would like to watch.
And that’s the second reason why there are weight classes (first having fair and safe fights): Namely interesting matchups - If the mass disparity is too great, the fight will be too one-dimensional.
Schwarzfahrer
you make lots of good points, especially about how the physics of the now “superheavyweight” division has led to changes in the way the heavies fight to be successful (and not get ktfo). If all these people who have disdain for the heavyweight division nowdays can blame Manny Steward and Lennox Lewis. It was those two who perfected how a larger taller fighter handles a shorter more aggressive fighter and made the blueprint for guys like the Klits. Vitaly has always been tough, but Wlad, though powerful and exiting to watch in his early years, as we found out, was vulnerable to gassing out and getting KO’d, UNTIL he started fighting like L.L…
Once that happened he became unbeatable.
However when you start interjecting race and nationality into your arguments, it polarizes the issue and the good points you make sort of get washed out.
just my 2 cents.
I will wrap up my rant regarding the conventional wisdom surrounding the heavyweights today.
the conventional wisdom is they suck, that the heavies of the 70’s were better, whatever. a real close unbiased examination of the facts will squash this. I"ll try to find some links to some well written articles on the subject.
now if it is just your preference that you think the lighter weight classes are more exiting to watch, and that is what you choose to spend your hard earned money on…thats fine. hell, if you like vanilla and not chocolate, who the hell am I or anyone else to tell you otherwise?
Me? I like the mystique of the BIG combat athletes. Here is a story. Back when i was a young buck…still a competitive lifter and thrower, weight around 270lbs, I got into a tussle with this little asshole gangster wanna be at a gym i trained at. long story short, he turned out to be an armed forces welterweight boxing champion of some sort(that is what i learned later) so he was a “little guy” slightly shorter than me, aboutt 5-5 5-6 maybe, and i would guess at the time we scrapped he was about 160-165lbs. well, he sucker punched me and caught me flush on the nose when i was not even looking. it rung my bell, but i did NOT go down. after wiping shaking it off and realize i just got popped in the mush i grabbed the little shit and we hit the ground and i was on top of him when the crowd broke the fight up.
point? well, if he had been a light heavy, or cruiser, sitting at about 200lbs or so, i would have went to sleep. if he had been a true HEAVYWEIGHT, I would be in my power chair drooling and getting fed through a tube today, not typing this shit.
this punk was a trained competitive welterweight boxer, he got a free shot on me right in the face bare knuckled, and he did not knock me out. that is why i care less about watching the speedy little things wale on each other for 12 rounds. no matter how good they are, they are still little runts beating the crap out of each other. i can respect the talent and athleticism, and no doubt, if Pac-man a Maywether fight I am buying that shit and watching it, but seeing the big guys fight knowing that these dudes could prolly KILL me if they hit me adds some mystique to the larger weight classes that makes watching them fun for me.
Heavy… you can like or dislike them for whatever reason you want. That reason sounds stupid to me, granted, but whatever.
Again, I have nothing against heavyweights. I have something against boring fights, no matter if the guys are 3 foot tall or 10 foot tall. Boring is boring. The fact that you derive any enjoyment from it amazes me, but then some people like watching porn with clowns and animals in it, so…
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
My one, big argument is still the sheer physicality:
How is a 220lbs guy like Tyson gonna cope with a 330 lbs guy like Valuev inside the ring? Even if he did well, how shitty would that fight be? The mutant would lean the first rounds the shit out of his opponent - who’s more then a foot shorter!
That’s not a fight I would like to watch.
And that’s the second reason why there are weight classes (first having fair and safe fights): Namely interesting matchups - If the mass disparity is too great, the fight will be too one-dimensional.
[/quote]
How would Tyson cope with Valuev?
A prime Tyson would have destroyed him withhin 3 rounds. Absolute TKO, As for Valuev “leaning” tyson! cmon Tyson was one of the best inside fighters of all time. Remember Sammy scaff and david jaco, Two huge men who helped create the tyson legacy by providing the big hits and flawless technique that Tyson forever be remembered by.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Heavy… you can like or dislike them for whatever reason you want. That reason sounds stupid to me, granted, but whatever.
Again, I have nothing against heavyweights. I have something against boring fights, no matter if the guys are 3 foot tall or 10 foot tall. Boring is boring. The fact that you derive any enjoyment from it amazes me, but then some people like watching porn with clowns and animals in it, so…[/quote]
I think it’s mainly deranged white people and Europeans who enjoy that garbage.
[quote]sardines12 wrote:
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Heavy… you can like or dislike them for whatever reason you want. That reason sounds stupid to me, granted, but whatever.
Again, I have nothing against heavyweights. I have something against boring fights, no matter if the guys are 3 foot tall or 10 foot tall. Boring is boring. The fact that you derive any enjoyment from it amazes me, but then some people like watching porn with clowns and animals in it, so…[/quote]
I think it’s mainly deranged white people and Europeans who enjoy that garbage.[/quote]
lets not get personal you little fuck twit. i know i am from an older generation but i am still amazed how rude and uncivil people can be while safely anonymous behind the interweb. we can agree to disagree, but geez, what is wrong with a little animal clown porn?
Marciano Charles I was on ESPN Classic and yeah todays HW fights are garbage plain and simple.
Interesting that you would mention one of Marciano’s only fights to go the distance. He was, for the most part, a big fighter with long arms, explosive power, and plodding footwork. I think he was one of the greatest fighters ever, but he’s hardly a well-rounded boxer.
Did you notice how much real punching went on in the clinch back then? Maybe our reffing these days is part of the problem?
Possibly it was a fucking slugfest. It was about who was going to break first and just to see how tenacious both men were man crazy. But Marciano especially he just wasn’t going to give up.
the last “true” heavyweight fight that had lots of inside fighting/punching was Tua/Ibeabuchi what i mean, tua was about 230, and “the president” was about 240, both solid slabs of muscle. Google THAT fight if you want an example of modern heavyweights with high work rate and no clinching. hard to compare today’s HW fights with Marciano/Charles, cuz they would both be light heavyweights by today’s standards.
