Angry, Bitter Losers...

[quote]vroom wrote:
Aw, give these people time. Some of them have just had their “hopes and dreams” crushed. They are going to vent and be bitter for a while.

Hopefully a short while.

The concept of spoilage leaning one way or the other is interesting. It may point to a need to equalize the voting process so that it spoils indescriminately. No need to point fingers in either direction to consider that appropriate though.

So, yes, don’t get me wrong, I’m agreeing, there are angry and bitter losers out there.[/quote]

Yeah, and a little gloating from the right, I?m willing to admit it.

But people do need to get out their emotions.

During the election, I was with a democrat who was practically melting down over the election returns. While I admit I got a kick out of her reaction, (it didn?t matter if my person was winning or not, and if she was supporting my candidate, her overreaction was entertainment for me,) I told her that it was still to early to tell how the election was going to turn out, and it was still possible for Kerry to win. (California wasn?t even in yet.)

Now we have to wait for 4 more years to go through it all over again, though we get a little fun in 2.

[quote]Kieran wrote:
I think these quotes need to be put into context. As a Canadian, I am of the typical view that having someone other than Bush elected would have been better for the world, and the US. There is a huge amount of mistrust toward the Bush administration, particularly w.r.t. its invasion of Iraq.

We just fear that having Bush in for another 4 years will worsen the international political climate and that means that Iraq will remain a bleeding sore for your country. (I sincerely doubt that the members of U.N. Security Council would be willing to help out after Bush trampled the U.N. regulations by invading Iraq)

There is a growing fear that the US has adopted “democracy” as its new religion, and that it is now out on a crusade to re-educate the world.

While this imperialistic reference is perhaps somewhat harsh, I don’t think it is entirely inaccurate. Let?s face it, you have already killed over 100,000 Iraqi civilians and by voting Bush you have just told the world that you think that this is acceptable. While I don’t believe that it is entirely the case, it certainly might explain some of the rather “unpatriotic” backlash (or perhaps it is “patriotic” backlash?).

As an aside, does anyone think that it will be possible for the US to set up a real government in Iraq without the UN? Do you think that there is sufficient trust for that to happen without years of bloodshed?
[/quote]

You guys were not to fond of Ronald Reagan either (not that you would remember), so I think President Bush is in good company!

Can somebody explain what is so difficult about those punch cards? I don’t get it. After your last election half the world’s population learned the importance of punching a solid hole in the card. And yet it still causes so much trouble. Can you ask for another card if you screw up? Can you ask for help if you have arthritis?

“As an aside, does anyone think that it will be possible for the US to set up a real government in Iraq without the UN? Do you think that there is sufficient trust for that to happen without years of bloodshed?”

America didn’t get it’s democracy and freedom without years of bloodshed, why does everyone forget this? If there are people in power who are not representing the people, but merely runing things thier own way. I.E. a dictator, And… that dictator does not feel the need to give his power away to the people he is governing of course there will be bloodshed in order to show that dictator and his supporters that they in fact do not have the power they thought they had. Power is all perception. It can be taken away with one bullet or one million bullets. It can also be given away freely. Obviously in the absence of the latter the former is the only way.

Now there are dictators who do well by thier people, they have a heart and while still in it for themselves, don’t want thier people to suffer. This was not the case in Iraq.

Also anyone read up on the american revolution? Britain was our bitter worst enemies. There were war crimes commited by british troops who would force civilians to put them up in thier houses, rape thier women and kill the men if they objected. not that much time passed before the brits and america became strong allies. It is possible for the muslim world to taste freedom and begin to trust the US. Begin to see us a s friends not foes. All is not gloom and doom.

I’ll leave you with a line from a song by 311, I live by thier ideas.

“I guess, thats life, when you see a dark road up the way. And I guess, Thats life, when you gatta roll through anyways.”

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

Vegita,

A revolution from within is much different than what is going on in Iraq. They never asked for your help.

It really is pathetic. This whole idea liberals have about themselves and their party is asinine.

I am becoming more and more convinced that the whole party is star struck and searching desperately to associate themselves with something or someone that provides the grounds for feelings of pretention and intellectual superiority.

I had a cute conversation the other day. To preface this, a friend of mine is in a PhD program and surrounded by liberals. He started his own business, did very well, cashed out and is now going back to school. He is loaded with real world perspective.

Anyway, this one girl (term used intentionally) peeks her head out of her cocoon and makes the comment that she has lead far too privileged of a life not to be a liberal. (She really puts on a pretentious little show.)

Little does she know the guy she is having this conversation could have comfortably chosen to never work again at the age of 31 based solely on professional accomplishment.

I replied to her that she obviously didn’t earn any of it herself.

This pissed her off something fierce and she stormed out of the restaurant and screeched out of the parking lot in her beat up Saturn. Some life of privilege.

Talk about chopping the hair off the poodle.

“A revolution from within is much different than what is going on in Iraq. They never asked for your help.”

They sure as hell did! They tried to revolt right after the first gulf war and we let them die. They thought we would help them take the fight to Saddam! After a thrashing like that with the knowledge that if anyone says anything bad about the regime they would be killed and thier family tortured exactly how many people do you think would openly ask another country to help them overthrow thier government.

Wow, I cant believe how some people forget things so easily when a person with a different viewpoint is trying to do something good.

Lets do an analogy, a hypothetical if you will. Say I have a female friend, she is in a very abusive relationship. She talks to me all the time about how she wants out of the relationship but I don’t know what to do, I do nothing and loose contact with the woman for several years. She having no other easy way out stays in the relationship out of fear, and gets beat by her asshole husband day in and day out. a few years pass and I run into her, she is in bad shape and I curse myself for not doing something before. I go to her house to confront Mr asshole, I tell him he has 24 hours to pack his shit and leave or let me take the girls shit and leave, he slams the door in my face. I then come back with a lead pipe, kick his door in and give him one more chance to leave. The guy charges me and gets thumped. while he is out cold we get all her stuff and she leaves, I find a place to put her up and get her to counseling. I leave the guy with a note that says next time the other shoe will fall.

Even if this woman doesn’t specifically ask to be helped it doesn’t take a mind reader to see when someone really needs help. Lets even throw in that because the guy knew she talked to me about thier problems, it got around that he wanted to take me out.

Oh lets even go this route, I first tried to get her help from the police, (UN?) and they couldn’t do anything but give the guy a warning first and only with evedince or eyewitness acounts of the beatings.

Let me guess, you were the type of kid that saw a nerd getting a swirlie or getting beat on in school and were too chicken shit to stick up for him and fight the bullies off? HUH? grow a set!

Vegita ~ Prince of all Sayajins

Some good pictures of Angry, Bitter Losers:

http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_november_3_2004/

More tripe, from the amusingly named novelist Jane Smiley – you’ve got to love her starting point, which is all the Bush voters were ignorant, except her relatives, who couldn’t be ignorant because they are related to her, so they must be greedy and selfish. Classic pseudo-intellectual myopia – I bet she probably thought she was being clever when she wrote it too.

Ah, the irony of having this woman criticize the worldview of middle America…:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2109218/

Why Americans Hate Democrats?A Dialogue
The unteachable ignorance of the red states.
By Jane Smiley
Updated Thursday, Nov. 4, 2004, at 3:24 PM PT

I say forget introspection. It’s time to be honest about our antagonists. My predecessors in this conversation are thoughtful men, and I honor their ideas, but let’s try something else. I grew up in Missouri and most of my family voted for Bush, so I am going to be the one to say it: The election results reflect the decision of the right wing to cultivate and exploit ignorance in the citizenry. I suppose the good news is that 55 million Americans have evaded the ignorance-inducing machine. But 58 million have not. (Well, almost 58 million?my relatives are not ignorant, they are just greedy and full of classic Republican feelings of superiority.)

Ignorance and bloodlust have a long tradition in the United States, especially in the red states. There used to be a kind of hand-to-hand fight on the frontier called a “knock-down-drag-out,” where any kind of gouging, biting, or maiming was considered fair. The ancestors of today’s red-state voters used to stand around cheering and betting on these fights. When the forces of red and blue encountered one another head-on for the first time in Kansas Territory in 1856, the red forces from Missouri, who had been coveting Indian land across the Missouri River since 1820, entered Kansas and stole the territorial election. The red news media of the day made a practice of inflammatory lying?declaring that the blue folks had shot and killed red folks whom everyone knew were walking around. The worst civilian massacre in American history took place in Lawrence, Kan., in 1862?Quantrill’s raid. The red forces, known then as the slave-power, pulled 265 unarmed men from their beds on a Sunday morning and slaughtered them in front of their wives and children. The error that progressives have consistently committed over the years is to underestimate the vitality of ignorance in America. Listen to what the red state citizens say about themselves, the songs they write, and the sermons they flock to. They know who they are?they are full of original sin and they have a taste for violence. The blue state citizens make the Rousseauvian mistake of thinking humans are essentially good, and so they never realize when they are about to be slugged from behind.

Here is how ignorance works: First, they put the fear of God into you?if you don’t believe in the literal word of the Bible, you will burn in hell. Of course, the literal word of the Bible is tremendously contradictory, and so you must abdicate all critical thinking, and accept a simple but logical system of belief that is dangerous to question. A corollary to this point is that they make sure you understand that Satan resides in the toils and snares of complex thought and so it is best not try it.

Next, they tell you that you are the best of a bad lot (humans, that is) and that as bad as you are, if you stick with them, you are among the chosen. This is flattering and reassuring, and also encourages you to imagine the terrible fates of those you envy and resent. American politicians ALWAYS operate by a similar sort of flattery, and so Americans are never induced to question themselves. That’s what happened to Jimmy Carter?he asked Americans to take responsibility for their profligate ways, and promptly lost to Ronald Reagan, who told them once again that they could do anything they wanted. The history of the last four years shows that red state types, above all, do not want to be told what to do?they prefer to be ignorant. As a result, they are virtually unteachable.

Third, and most important, when life grows difficult or fearsome, they (politicians, preachers, pundits) encourage you to cling to your ignorance with even more fervor. But by this time you don’t need much encouragement?you’ve put all your eggs into the ignorance basket, and really, some kind of miraculous fruition (preferably accompanied by the torment of your enemies, and the ignorant always have plenty of enemies) is your only hope. If you are sufficiently ignorant, you won’t even know how dangerous your policies are until they have destroyed you, and then you can always blame others.

The reason the Democrats have lost five of the last seven presidential elections is simple: A generation ago, the big capitalists, who have no morals, as we know, decided to make use of the religious right in their class war against the middle class and against the regulations that were protecting those whom they considered to be their rightful prey?workers and consumers. The architects of this strategy knew perfectly well that they were exploiting, among other unsavory qualities, a long American habit of virulent racism, but they did it anyway, and we see the outcome now?Cheney is the capitalist arm and Bush is the religious arm. They know no boundaries or rules. They are predatory and resentful, amoral, avaricious, and arrogant. Lots of Americans like and admire them because lots of Americans, even those who don’t share those same qualities, don’t know which end is up. Can the Democrats appeal to such voters? Do they want to? The Republicans have sold their souls for power. Must everyone?

Progressives have only one course of action now: React quickly to every outrage?red state types love to cheat and intimidate, so we have to assume the worst and call them on it every time. We have to give them more to think about than they can handle?to always appeal to reason and common sense, and the law, even when they can’t understand it and don’t respond. They cannot be allowed to keep any secrets. Tens of millions of people didn’t vote?they are watching, too, and have to be shown that we are ready and willing to fight, and that the battle is worth fighting. And in addition, we have to remember that threats to democracy from the right always collapse. Whatever their short-term appeal, they are borne of hubris and hatred, and will destroy their purveyors in the end.

Jane Smiley is the author of many novels and essays. She lives in California.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Some good pictures of Angry, Bitter Losers:

http://www.zombietime.com/sf_rally_november_3_2004/[/quote]

BB:

When I see photos such as the ones on that site I always wonder what could be so bad in peoples lives for them to react that way.

[quote]ZEB wrote
You guys were not to fond of Ronald Reagan either (not that you would remember), so I think President Bush is in good company!
[/quote]
They weren’t very fond of Hitler or Stalin either. (No comparison just showing the horribly flawed logic)

A nice explanation of why Greg Palast’s delusional fantasies on voter disenfranchisement via the voting machines are in fact delusional fantasies:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2109141/

BB,

Doesn’t a rant like Jane Smiley’s sound curiously like the kind of vitriol some bigots had against Blacks when Blacks first got the right to vote?

I also read in another Slate piece that there are protests scheduled for Inauguration Day. To protest what?

The wannabe revolution continues.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
BB,

Doesn’t a rant like Jane Smiley’s sound curiously like the kind of vitriol some bigots had against Blacks when Blacks first got the right to vote?

I also read in another Slate piece that there are protests scheduled for Inauguration Day. To protest what?

The wannabe revolution continues.[/quote]

It does.

Just rephrase a little bit. THEY aren’t smart enough to think for themselves, so WE have to lead them to the light.

Pretty pathetic, especially from one unable to see the irony of her own little illogical story.

thunderbolt:

Check out this “fisk”-style response to Smiley from Roger Simon:

http://www.rogerlsimon.com/mt-archives/2004/11/the_mind_of_a_n.php

And then there’s this, correcting Ms. Smiley’s Civil War history:

http://confederateyankee.blogspot.com/2004/11/anatomy-of-idiot.html

Here’s stupid old idiot voter James Lileks, who apparently can’t absorb all the wisdom of the enlightened around him in Blue State Minnesota, responding to the New York Times piece above:

http://www.lileks.com/bleats/archive/04/1104/110504.html
[Bottom third of the Bleat if you follow the link]

Excerpt:

In the New York Times, some angst from our betters:

[Begin NYT excerpt] “Everybody seems to hate us these days,” said Zito Joseph, a 63-year-old retired psychiatrist. "None of the people who are likely to be hit by a terrorist attack voted for Bush. But the heartland people seemed to be saying, ‘We’re not affected by it if there would be another terrorist attack.’ " [End NYT Excerpt]

Sir. Please. First of all, on a purely practical level, if New York takes a hit, the economy takes a hit. There are people in North Dakota who write financial management software used by big companies. The economy goes south for a year, they might well go south forever. On an emotional level, an attack on New York is an attack on us all. No one tunes in at midnight on New Year?s Eve to watch the corn cob drop in Des Moines, or whatever they do. For that matter, we simple folk in flyoverland tune in at eleven o?clock to watch New York declare the old year dead. Our own midnight feels like an anticlimax. We don?t even mind that you came up with the next new year first; hell, we?re used to it. We get one more hour out of the old one, and that?s fine.

That said, if I may quote Rita Moreno, who sang the greatest lyric of the latter half of the 20th century: I like the Island Manhattan. Smoke on your pipe and put that in. I could never live there, because I need space and mobility in terms the city can?t provide. But once a year I go there, and I never feel as alive as I do my first day in town. I?m not sure I could take that much exultation on a daily basis, and I would hate to become used to the Chanin Building at night, or the great golden sky of Grand Central. More than that, it?s the small places that abide, the idea that I can walk into Beekman Liquors on Lex and feel as though I stepped back one year, five, ten, thirty. It?s a miraculous place, if only for the sheer variety of ordinary things it provides. Just as every man feels himself somewhat less for never having been a soldier, every man would like to think he could have been a New Yorker in the classic mold, however he defines it. Hate you? I love you more than you know. We may disagree about the means to keep it safe; that?s fine. But don?t assume that someone sitting in a smallish metropolis half a nation away is indifferent to your fate and safety. On the contrary. They touch one hair on your head, they should sleep with the fishes.

We continue, alas:

[Begin NYT excerpt] “I’m saddened by what I feel is the obtuseness and shortsightedness of a good part of the country–the heartland,” Dr. Joseph said. “This kind of redneck, shoot-from-the-hip mentality and a very concrete interpretation of religion is prevalent in Bush country–in the heartland.” [End NYT excerpt]

Sir, speaking as a heartlander who makes it to New York whenever he can, may I kindly suggest you get out of town more often. There?s only one New York, which is why it is so important. But there are a hundred thousand Fargos, which is why they matter too.

As for a ?Shoot from the hip mentality and a very concrete interpretation of religion? ? well, if you hang around the right corners in New York long enough you?ll probably see a gun battle AND some Lubavitchers handing out literature; this would not make me assume all New Yorkers are gang-bangers or Torah-thumpers. It?s a big country. Please take this in the spirit it?s offered: we watch the news that comes from New York, read the magazines that come from New York, see the shows that come from New York. It?s entirely possible we know you better than you know us. No?

DLM:

Actually the logic is quite sound! European countries and American Liberals are famous for hating conservative Presidents. The last time we had a President that was as conservative as President Bush was Ronald Reagan.

Do you need more of a comparison than that, or do you understand?

That shrill screaching sound you hear from the elitists is a combination of their outrage at the ‘stupid electorate’ getting it wrong for the tenth year, and any shread of power that retained slipping from their hands.

If the republicans don’t seize this power surge and do some real legislating, they don’t deserve the support the voters have given them this week.

Four republican two term Presidents since the 1950’s. Only one democrat two termer in that same time period…that can be frustrating. And he (Clinton) never got up to 50% of the vote!