But is that participating? It’s a business transaction. Besides, we have the example of Jesus and the Centurion. [/quote]
You really don’t know?
[/quote]
I know. You don’t. [/quote]
You obviously don’t if you’re making a buck clears you form knowingly making a mockery of a sacrament/sacred institution.
[/quote]
It’s just a cake. It doesn’t have to represent how you feel or what you believe. I mean, if every cake that a baker makes somehow binds him in some way to whom he bakes it for then he’ll need a sin detector at his front door. Oh wait, you wrote knowingly. So it’s OK if you “don’t know”?
Jesus helped a Roman soldier (a person who killed for a living, owned slaves and was an occupier of Jewish lands, in short, a sinner) and he asked for nothing in return. He didn’t tell the soldier to quit being a soldier.
Why are you trolling? If you’re not interested in what Christianity actually teaches about a subject, why did you act as if you had knowledge about it?
What were Christ’s words about marriage? That is the Christian’s definition.
Not your silly /wink, /wink “Who says the two homosexuals are planning on having sex? Huh? Huh?”
Let’s treat each other as adults, please.
[/quote]
The Catholic Church makes a distinction between homosexuality and homosexual acts.
Christ’s words have to be considered in context. Who was he speaking to, for example. Why would he have said anything about gay marriage since it wasn’t an issue at the time? We do know what his thoughts were when it came to the treatment of sinners. Shunning them was not part of his teachings.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
I really don’t want to turn this into another gay marriage thread but I have a question: should a pastor/bishop/priest who believes gay marriage to be a sin be required under penalty of law to professionally officiate at a gay wedding?
If your answer is no then tell me why the baker is different from the pastor.
Andy, let’s start with you.[/quote]
Do churches follow the same laws as other public businesses? I’m not sure the comparison is valid. Businesses are generally open to the public which are what the discrimination laws are for, are mormon temples like that? It’s more of an invite only thing vs all free to come in, unless we say no.[/quote]
Doesn’t have to be in a church building.
Let’s say the gay couple wanted a wedding down by the riverside 100 miles away from the nearest church. So they call Pastor John F Humpenstickenstein from the Calvary Baptist Church or Father Joe W PeterThouArtMyRock from the Catholic diocese and request he perform the vows. If the men refuse to do so on the grounds of immorality should District Attorney Richard S ConstitutionBeDamned step in and file charges against them?
[/quote]
Nope[/quote]
Why not?
OK, now explain why the wedding cake baker is different from the pastor.
[/quote]
A pastor performs religious services specific to their religion. If the wedding goes against it then its not a service they offer. Would it make sense for the attorney general to file charges against a pastor for refusing service when someone insists they change their car oil and rotate their tires.
The Catholic Church makes a distinction between homosexuality and homosexual acts. [/quote]
It, nor Christ, are vague in what makes for a marriage.
The homosexual act itself is clearly seen as abominable in both the Old and New Testament. Not simply “unnatural acts with each other (man-man, woman-woman) outside of marriage.” In other words, there is no Christian institution for the ‘moral’ sexual expression of homosexuality as it is with heterosexuality expressed within the institution of marriage. And, no, I’m not going to agree to play dumb with you…“Homo-celibate-marriage.” Come on. We’re both adults here.
They are welcome to attend Church with me, I’ll personally pick them up. I will personally sell them a cake. They are not welcome to force me, through the threat of armed force, into making a WEDDING cake. I would rot in jail before doing it.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
I really don’t want to turn this into another gay marriage thread but I have a question: should a pastor/bishop/priest who believes gay marriage to be a sin be required under penalty of law to professionally officiate at a gay wedding?
If your answer is no then tell me why the baker is different from the pastor.
Andy, let’s start with you.[/quote]
Do churches follow the same laws as other public businesses? I’m not sure the comparison is valid. Businesses are generally open to the public which are what the discrimination laws are for, are mormon temples like that? It’s more of an invite only thing vs all free to come in, unless we say no.[/quote]
Doesn’t have to be in a church building.
Let’s say the gay couple wanted a wedding down by the riverside 100 miles away from the nearest church. So they call Pastor John F Humpenstickenstein from the Calvary Baptist Church or Father Joe W PeterThouArtMyRock from the Catholic diocese and request he perform the vows. If the men refuse to do so on the grounds of immorality should District Attorney Richard S ConstitutionBeDamned step in and file charges against them?
[/quote]
Nope[/quote]
Why not?
OK, now explain why the wedding cake baker is different from the pastor.
[/quote]
A pastor performs religious services specific to their religion. If the wedding goes against it then its not a service they offer. Would it make sense for the attorney general to file charges against a pastor for refusing service when someone insists they change their car oil and rotate their tires.[/quote]
Would it make sense to file charges against a guy who doesn’t claim to make cakes for homosexual weddings. If they live their life actually according to their faith.
[quote]zecarlo wrote:
Oh wait, you wrote knowingly. So it’s OK if you “don’t know”?
[/quote]
Wow.
If someone simply said, “I need a cake.” Then, at home, wrote in vanilla icing on it “Jesus is fake,” yeah, then I’m not responsible. If someone came in and said “hey pal, need a cake with ‘Jesus is fake’ on it…” I’m going to tell them to scram.
[quote]pushharder wrote:
I really don’t want to turn this into another gay marriage thread but I have a question: should a pastor/bishop/priest who believes gay marriage to be a sin be required under penalty of law to professionally officiate at a gay wedding?
If your answer is no then tell me why the baker is different from the pastor.
Andy, let’s start with you.[/quote]
Do churches follow the same laws as other public businesses? I’m not sure the comparison is valid. Businesses are generally open to the public which are what the discrimination laws are for, are mormon temples like that? It’s more of an invite only thing vs all free to come in, unless we say no.[/quote]
Doesn’t have to be in a church building.
Let’s say the gay couple wanted a wedding down by the riverside 100 miles away from the nearest church. So they call Pastor John F Humpenstickenstein from the Calvary Baptist Church or Father Joe W PeterThouArtMyRock from the Catholic diocese and request he perform the vows. If the men refuse to do so on the grounds of immorality should District Attorney Richard S ConstitutionBeDamned step in and file charges against them?
[/quote]
Nope[/quote]
Why not?
OK, now explain why the wedding cake baker is different from the pastor.
[/quote]
A pastor performs religious services specific to their religion. If the wedding goes against it then its not a service they offer. Would it make sense for the attorney general to file charges against a pastor for refusing service when someone insists they change their car oil and rotate their tires.[/quote]
So if a bakery only bakes cakes for birthdays, special occasions, and heterosexual weddings that should be fine then, correct?
[quote]pushharder wrote:
It’s amazing the mental gymnastics some will put themselves through to try and make a case for extending the power of the state against personal freedom.[/quote]
Yes, I think about this every time one votes to ban gay marriage and tell churches who can and cannot be married.
That was the point you were making right?
FWIW the cake baker should be allowed to refuse to do anything just as a church should. And no government needs to tell a church who they can and cannot marry.
To think otherwise is simply extending the power of the state against personal freedom AND freedom of religion.
Look at all the fun history behind that. Weren’t Nazi Germany and Apartheid beacons of freedom
CA Students lose case regarding being made to remove t-shirts with American Flag on Cinco De Mayo.
A Northern California high school did not violate the constitutional rights of students when it ordered them to remove shirts emblazoned with the American flag during a celebration of Cinco De Mayo, a federal appeals court decided unanimously Thursday.
The Anglo students in the flag apparel argued they suffered discrimination because students wearing the colors of the Mexican flag were not required to change their clothing.
